Sex worker wins in Nova Scotia court, but ruling leaves sex industry conflicted

[WasteIslander]

Interesting case and read.

On one hand I am all in favour of this and taking "John's" to task and standing up for SW rights. On the other hand, this is just a small battle won in the larger war being waged on SWers rights.

I an in total agreement that we need a governmental and legislative shift/change to make things better for all SWers, and if that means exposing and taking the John's to task, so be it. The points addressed by Stella hit the nail on the head.

Ultimately the quote from Wayne MacKay is what many people have been saying for a number of years and I am in total agreement with; “Sex work is work, legal work, and deserves to be treated like other legal work, and if people chose not to pay, they can get a remedy in small claims court.”

Sex worker wins in Nova Scotia court, but ruling leaves sex industry conflicted

HALIFAX — In a legal decision described as the first of its kind in Canada, a Halifax sex worker successfully sued a client for nonpayment of services, but actors in the industry are conflicted about the ruling's impacts. Former sex worker Brogan Sheehan took Bradley Samuelson to small claims...

ca.news.yahoo.com

 

[cpp433]

The last thing we need is further government/legislative hand in this or anything else for that matter! Does anyone sw’s or hobbyists really want legalization? I dont think the workers really want to start applying for and paying for licenses/permits to practice that would be public record, nor do they want to start having all their income taxed, as a hobbyist i dont want to have the higher prices and restrictions that would come with government interference, im gonna guess that agency owners are probably not interested in any of that as well
just to be clear anyone should be able to sue for theft of services from n any industry, im strictly speaking to the op’s statement that we need more government/legislature intervention in our lives

 

[Alisha Cantaloupe]

Personally I don’t want SW to be legalize but more decriminalize than it is now. It will help some people to actually be able to open a bank account; have better ways to fill for stuff like renting an apartment ; buying a car; saying on their papers that they are a SW directly instead of something else etc. But if people keeps abusing SW like this man did in the report, the government will want to have a word to say in it soon. This lady win her trial and more SW will start going to sue their clients and definitely the government will have more access to how to control everyone. Like they did with cannabis : it was illegal but people were still consuming it and making great money from selling it. Now it’s legalized; you can’t buy it outside of SQDC anymore without the risk to be charge with an illegal activity « badge ». The prices are double with lower quality; you can’t plant more than a certain quantity of cannabis and you need to be registered and approved to be an official producer etc ( I don’t know everything about it so my apologies if I say something that’s inaccurate ).
Im happy she has her stuff together ( she pay her taxes as a registered small business) and she was able to go and sue that men. This is how I think decriminalizing should be : being able to work like in any other work and have the same advantages as other human beings.
The solution is simple yet impossible at the same time: both client and SW are adults that decide to exchange some services and some money in a respectful way. We both agree on the service and the amount. I give you your service and you give me my due. No bargaining; no stealing; no fake promises; no boundaries crossing. I do my best and you do your best.
The world will be so much better and the work/hobby will be so much safer !
*my little thoughts

 

[Jazzman1218]

I'm okay with either approach but would strongly prefer complete decriminalization vs legalization.

 

[Halloween Mike]

Obviously that client should had paid and he was a scumbag for not doing so.

But that said, the situation of this work is just a lot more complex. Personally i think decriminalizing it on both side is the way to go. I understand some aspect of it being legal can be problematic but i think in the society we live in, it should had been decriminalized a long time ago. Sexualitty is much more accepted today. We ain't in the old days of church and forced weddings.

Personally I don’t want SW to be legalize but more decriminalize than it is now.

Like they did with cannabis : it was illegal but people were still consuming it and making great money from selling it. Now it’s legalized; you can’t buy it outside of SQDC anymore without the risk to be charge with an illegal activity « badge ». The prices are double with lower quality; you can’t plant more than a certain quantity of cannabis and you need to be registered and approved to be an official producer etc ( I don’t know everything about it so my apologies if I say something that’s inaccurate ).

Legalizing Cannabis has just made it more convenient for some peoples, especially peoples who would had otherwise never bough it. In truth the guys who used to buy theirs at "Mr Green" in his shady appartement still do. Legalizing it didn't do the blow the govs hoped for in the Cannabis illegal selling. Legalization didn't change ANYTHING for the peoples who grew it illegally to sell it before. They still do.

Its still cheaper to buy from them than SQDC altough the quality of SQDC may be better.

 

[envelopes]

The system is fine the way it is. SW can legally work. We take the legal risk as clients.

I can't believe people want MORE government intervention. Know what happens when the government joins the party? They're gonna want SPs to register. Get licensed. Privacy is all gone. They're gonna want registration fees. License fees.

Next thing you know, they're gonna want to inspect your cock before you can go see an SP.

I feel like it's a lot of woke people who will scream for legalization but don't think of the repercussions. In this case, the solution should be like what cpp433 said: allow her to sue for theft, and he should be arrested for criminal act of theft of services.

 

[Jazzman1218]

The system is fine the way it is. SW can legally work. We take the legal risk as clients.

I can't believe people want MORE government intervention. Know what happens when the government joins the party? They're gonna want SPs to register. Get licensed. Privacy is all gone. They're gonna want registration fees. License fees.

Next thing you know, they're gonna want to inspect your cock before you can go see an SP.

I feel like it's a lot of woke people who will scream for legalization but don't think of the repercussions. In this case, the solution should be like what cpp433 said: allow her to sue for theft, and he should be arrested for criminal act of theft of services.

Which is why total decriminalization is superior to legalization. Never going to happen in the god-fearing, evangelical, right-wing US but could happen in a more socially progressive country like Canada.

 

[Jazzman1218]

The God shit isn’t the problem in the U.S. Few Americans believe in God or pay any attention to Him/Her.

The problem with decriminalization are regulations. Regulations are worse than the Devil, although they are actually very similar.

Decriminalization would make sex work the only unregulated industry in either Canada or the United States. That ain’t going to happen.

It would be more likely to happen in the United States than Canada, actually, Canada is more regulated than the U.S. for business operations, including a kid having a fucking lemonade stand.

Also ironically, the sex work industry is closer to being deregulated in the U.S. as an illegal enterprise than it could be under any other realistic scenario.

The police don’t go after independents who screen. So that is the system. The buyer and seller interact with each other and the government isn’t in

If the "God shit" isn't a problem in the US why do white, evangelical Christians and "God-fearing" right-wing conservatives have such a loud voice in establishing laws concerning personal conduct especially in red states? Legalization, not decriminalization, brings the government into play with laws and regulations because the industry has been recognized by the State. Decriminalization removes criminal penalties but does not sanction the activity thus it allows the free market to establish how business is conducted without government involvement.

 

[PSEfreak]

This " John" is a complete moron.
His name and face is out now!
for what, a measly $1800

I hope it was worth it for him

 

[Jazzman1218]

Because that is all you seem to pay attention to in your observations. A hammer sees nothing but nails. The Socialist Left throughout the world, including in Spain, has been more damaging to sex work recently than the Religious Right. Government does nothing but damage to the sex work industry. Many of the commentators in that article realize it, too.

We are in agreement on one thing, and likely one thing only, that the government should stay out of the sex work industry. However, that starts and ends with complete decriminalization.

 

[Jazzman1218]

I would love that, but it can’t and won’t happen.

Decriminalization means a service is being legally sold.

It means that a business is being conducted.

There is not a single legally conducted business in North America that is unregulated. None.

So the moment you remove all criminal penalties against the purchase and sale of sex, the activity automatically becomes subject to the myriad of regulations that currently apply to all business activities. Since none of those regulations were drafted when the purchase and selling of sex was legal, it will be like fitting a round peg into a square hole.

So the impetus will be to draft regulations specifically applicable to the sale of commercial sex. That is what Nevada, Germany, Curaçao, and other countries have been doing for years. You inevitably get CBJ only rules that have to be broken.

If you pass a wonderful statute that says all previous laws criminalizing the sale of sex are voided, and neither the purchase or sale of sex is subject to any business licenses or regulations, I would get an erection. But Jesus Christ can you imagine the reaction of parents dropping off their kids to college and seeing a sign that says Pussy For Sale in Beaver Hall, Room 34 (Text the following number).

You will always have licenses, regulations and restrictions with a legal activity. With an illegal, or half-legal in Canada, activity the players make the rules, not the government. And we do a pretty damn good job of it. That lady should have gotten her money up front. Every once in a while, one of us gets scammed on a deposit. But the rules of the playground apply. You don’t run to the teacher (or the courts). In the long run, the teacher will ruin the fun for everyone.

Good grief, man. Let me try to explain the difference one more time. When something that was formerly criminal is fully decriminalizated, it remains technically illegal, but the legal system would not prosecute a person for the act. When something that was formerly criminal is fully legalized, there are no longer laws that prohibit the activity. When an activity is legalized, but not when it remains illegal, it is subject to government regulations. An excellent example is cannabis in the US. Almost half of the states have legalized cannabis, and many of those states initially decriminalized its use years before moving to full legalization. With decriminalization the government no longer prosecuted people for simple possession of weed. With legalization the state governments enacted laws and regulations for who could grow and sell the products, how it is taxed, the location of the cannabis stores, etc because it's a legal industry subject to being overseen by the state. Get it?

 

[CLOUD 500]

Which is why total decriminalization is superior to legalization. Never going to happen in the god-fearing, evangelical, right-wing US but could happen in a more socially progressive country like Canada.

Your mind is clouded. It has nothing to do with God-fearing right-wing US, it is coming from far left-wing feminist governments. The MANN act is at its core part of Socialism and is Feminist. The feminists see the men as the predators and the women as victims and the laws are built this way. We see now escorts taking clients to court for non-payment but can the same be said for an escort that ripped off a client? The goal of these laws is to stop trafficking so they say but they cannot even accept the idea that many women especially from poor countries are willingly working as sex workers just because they do not want to work at minimum wage at McDonalds. Most feminists say that a man buying sex is sexual exploitation. In Canada we got the same issues and now left-wing government risk making sex work illegal in Spain also.

 

[CLOUD 500]

Good grief, man. Let me try to explain the difference one more time. When something that was formerly criminal is fully decriminalizated, it remains technically illegal, but the legal system would not prosecute a person for the act. When something that was formerly criminal is fully legalized, there are no longer laws that prohibit the activity. When an activity is legalized, but not when it remains illegal, it is subject to government regulations. An excellent example is cannabis in the US. Almost half of the states have legalized cannabis, and many of those states initially decriminalized its use years before moving to full legalization. With decriminalization the government no longer prosecuted people for simple possession of weed. With legalization the state governments enacted laws and regulations for who could grow and sell the products, how it is taxed, the location of the cannabis stores, etc because it's a legal industry subject to being overseen by the state. Get it?

You want more government for things the government makes worse. I am lost. If it is legalize it means the government will regulate with taxes. The government will steal sex workers income so they can spend it for personal and political gain and ultimately the increased costs will fall on the customer. Also with more regulation government might say CBJ only which is kind of what is happening Germany. Also with over two years of covid lockdowns, all the sex work would be shut down also. The fact they were either illegal or unregulated allowed these establishments to keep operating under covid lockdowns. The best model is an unregulated system without any government intervention.

 

[CLOUD 500]

If you pass a wonderful statute that says all previous laws criminalizing the sale of sex are voided, and neither the purchase or sale of sex is subject to any business licenses or regulations, I would get an erection.

For this utopia we need a Libertarian government. Neither left-wing or right-wing governments would ever allow this. This is my dream come true.

 

[Jazzman1218]

Ultimately the decriminalization folks have to answer two basic questions and reconcile their answers.

Should a law firm be allowed to decline providing legal services to all Black people?

Should a sex worker be allowed to decline providing sexual services to all Black people?

If you answer No to #1 (which I hope you did) but answered Yes to #2, you definitely need an exception to a statute and probably some regulations.

So much for decriminalization being a great solution.

But most people are able to answer No to #1 and Yes to #2 because illegal and half-legal allows a person to think however he wants. You don’t have to reconcile or justify anything in the illegal (and half-legal) world.

Of course nothing makes sense or reconciles in the supposedly legal world. Everyone just spends a ridiculous amount of time and money trying to do so. Look at the process where they decided whether or not a company had to bake a wedding cake for the gay couple.

Thank god we can avoid it here. The industry makes its own rules and customs (customs are better than regulations).

I agree with you when you wrote "No, I don't get it at all." After that you lost me, but good luck with all of that.

 

[Jazzman1218]

You seem the intellectual/academic type with your political opinions.

Try this real-life experiment. Bake yourself a huge batch of chocolate chip cookies and make some huge pitchers of lemonade and put up a table outside somewhere and sell those cookies and lemonade.

See how long it takes for the police and the licensing folks to arrive.

A conservative is a former liberal who has been mugged and a liberal is a former conservative who has been arrested.

You will create a new expression. A libertarian is a former believer in government regulations who once tried to sell lemonade and cookies.

And you will gain a newfound appreciation of sex workers who have to juggle issues of advertising, travel, managing an incall, and getting payment.

What people like Cloud 500, me and others are trying to tell you is that those hassles are going to be even greater if there is decriminalization. The sex workers will automatically be subject to the same government regulation issues that any other legal business has to deal with (with the exception of occasional yard/garage sales, which would seem to be the only exception that legislators/regulators could place an exemption to those rules for sex work).

Most serious groups that have looked at decriminalization, and there have been some serious work on it in the supposedly god-fearing simple-minded U.S. (especially in two New England states) have ultimately thrown their hands up and said fuck it over regulatory issues, and decided the system was better off illegal, particularly when supposed allies wanted even more regulations pertaining to sex work. Not AIDS. Not trafficking. The regulations and licensing are the biggest problems of decriminalization.

As unavailing as this may ultimately be, let me try one final time to explain my position. We may be in some agreement in principle but confusing the semantics. In the US, with the exception of one county in Nevada, it is illegal to purchase and sell sex. In Canada, and now in Maine, it is illegal to purchase sex but not illegal to sell it ( the Nordic model ). Prostitution is not legal in Canada or in Maine, but the sellers are not penalized/criminalized. Consequently, Canada and Maine have decriminalized prostitution in favor of the sellers. I am advocating the same for buyers as well. I am not advocating for legalization, because with legalization comes government regulations like governments can do with legal businesses but cannot do with an illegal entity. Nevertheless, legalization is superior to illegality with criminalization but total decriminalization, for both sellers and buyers, keeps the government out of it entirely. I rest my case.