Should I tip an SP?

[funinus]

Sorry to ask this silly question here. Just like to know how much tip is normally paid in addition to $160 donation?

Thanks everybody.

FUN

 

[metoo4]

$000,000,000.00 is usually plenty. Unless AFTER and unless the encounter was out of this world. Don't forget, if you repeat with same sp and tip her once, tipping will likely become expected.

 

[HarmonyNYC]

Tipping is a custom related to low paying assistance or assistant, not for highly paid service providers who make 500 to 700, 800 a night (thousands of dollars a week) for allowing guys like us to bang them. Even if you make allot of money, they are most likely making more then you.

No disrespect intended to any working girls, just need to clarify what we are dealing with in regards to the newbie's misconception.

Example #1: In my hometown Plumbers make allot of money for a blue-collar worker. They can make 50 to 70 dollars an hour. That is allot more then most people make yet it is still a service being provided. Such workers usually have an assistant or two who make minimum wage and who are generally responsible for allot of the care and grunt work that goes into the service. In this example it does make sense to tip the helpers, but not the one who is making the big pay day from me for a service we have agreed on at a price we have agreed on.

Example #2: who tips a highly paid dentist or auto mechanic. We enter into the transaction with a high price payment agreed on. Tipping is reserved for the low paid like the waitress or delivery guy.

-

 

[funinus]

Understood, thanks a lot.

FUN

 

[Agrippa]

Not a silly question at all funinus.

Great explanation HarmonyNYC, thanks!

Now that that's settled, allow me to ask everyoe, when you do tip-say at a restaurant-do you tip before or after tax?

Maybe a poll is in order...

 

[Agrippa]

I've been tipping on top of the tax, but I'm starting to do that less and less.

I read a statistic somewhere recently where it was pretty much split down the middle half tip before, the other half after tax... still wondering what MERBites do, and their opinions...

Anyone remember the rant from Reservoir Dogs?

 

[Agrippa]

Anyone remember the rant from Reservoir Dogs?

The script is online!

NICE GUY EDDIE
Okay, everybody cough up green for the little lady.​

Everybody whips out a buck, and throws it on the table. Everybody, that is, except Mr. White.

NICE GUY EDDIE
C'mon, throw in a buck.

MR. WHITE
Uh-uh. I don't tip.

NICE GUY EDDIE
Whaddaya mean you don't tip?

MR. WHITE
I don't believe in it.

NICE GUY EDDIE
You don't believe in tipping?

MR. PINK
(laughing)
I love this kid, he's a madman, this guy.

MR. BLONDE
Do you have any idea what these ladies make? They make shit.

MR. WHITE
Don't give me that. She don't make enough money, she can quit.​

Everybody laughs.

NICE GUY EDDIE
I don't even know a Jew who'd have the balls to say that. So let's get this straight. You never ever tip?

MR. WHITE
I don't tip because society says I gotta. I tip when somebody deserves a tip. When somebody really puts forth an effort, they deserve a little something extra. But this tipping automatically, that shit's for the birds. As far as I'm concerned, they're just doin their job.

MR. BLUE
Our girl was nice.

MR. WHITE
Our girl was okay. She didn't do anything special.

MR. BLONDE
What's something special, take ya in the kitchen and suck your dick?​

They all laugh.

NICE GUY EDDIE
I'd go over twelve percent for that.

MR. WRITE
Look, I ordered coffee. Now we've been here a long fuckin time, and she's only filled my cup three times. When I order coffee, I want it filled six times.

MR. BLONDE
What if she's too busy?

MR. WHITE
The words "too busy" shouldn't be in a waitress's vocabulary.

NICE GUY EDDIE
Excuse me, Mr. White, but the last thing you need is another cup of coffee.​

They all laugh.

MR. WHITE
These ladies aren't starvin to death. They make minimum wage. When I worked for minimum wage, I wasn't lucky enough to have a job that society deemed tipworthy.

NICE GUY EDDIE
Ahh, now we're getting down to it. It's not just that he's a cheap bastard--

MR. ORANGE
--It is that too--

NICE GUY EDDIE
--It is that too. But it's also he couldn't get a waiter job. You talk like a pissed off dishwasher: "Fuck those cun1s and their fucking tips."

MR. BLONDE
So you don't care that they're counting on your tip to live?​

Mr. White rubs two of his fingers together.

MR. WHITE
Do you know what this is? It's the world's smallest violin, playing just for the waitresses.

MR. BLONDE
You don't have any idea what you're talking about. These people bust their ass. This is a hard job.

MR. WHITE
So's working at McDonald's, but you don't feel the need to tip them. They're servin ya food, you should tip em. But no, society says tip these guys over here, but not those guys over there. That's bullshit.

MR. ORANGE
They work harder than the kids at McDonald's.

MR. WHITE
Oh yeah, I don't see them cleaning fryers.

MR. BROWN
These people are taxed on the tips they make. When you stiff 'em, you cost them money.

MR. BLONDE
Waitressing is the number one occupation for female non-college graduates in this country. It's the one jab basically any woman can get, and make a living on. The reason is because of tips.

MR. WHITE
Fuck all that.​

They all laugh.

MR. WHITE
Hey, I'm very sorry that the government taxes their tips. That's fucked up. But that ain't my fault. it would appear that waitresses are just one of the
many groups the government fucks in the ass on a regular basis. You show me a paper says the government shouldn't do that, I'll sign it. Put it to a vote, I'll vote for it. But what I won't do is play ball. And this non-college bullshit you're telling me, I got two words for that: "Learn to fuckin type." Cause if you're expecting me to help out with the rent, you're in for a big fuckin surprise.

MR. ORANGE
He's convinced me. Give me my dollar back.​

 

[YouVantOption]

Tipping is a custom related to low paying assistance or assistant, not for highly paid service providers who make 500 to 700, 800 a night (thousands of dollars a week) for allowing guys like us to bang them. Even if you make allot of money, they are most likely making more then you.

No disrespect intended to any working girls, just need to clarify what we are dealing with in regards to the newbie's misconception.

If all that were true, why don't we see the evidence of crazy-rich ex-hookers?

Let's try out some math.

Sally is an SP. She is pretty and hot, gets some good reviews on MERB. Sally' agency gets lots of calls for Sally. Run, Sally, run. Run, run, run.

Sally runs to every call she can make - she works 8 pm to 4 am, 8 hours, in which she can regularly make six calls netting $100/per, or $600/night, $3,000/week (she takes 2 days off per) or $9K/month (she has a visit from her Aunt Flo for about a week every month) for sleeping with 90 guys.

That's about $100K/year, tax-free, but also benefit-free.

Sally has about 5 years to her career before she has to lower her prices and her standards, maybe 8 on the outside.

Sally also has expenses. Costumes, drugs to help her forget that she sleeps with 1,000 different men over the course of the year, and the normal stuff, rent, food, electricity, mobile phone, make-up, clothes ...

Problem is, Sally is young, and has no concept of 'the long term' or that the money will eventually just dry up. So she buys ONLY D&G jeans and top-end make-up, and tons and tons of cute useless things, because, let's face it, if Sally could get a job looking into someone's mouth rather than at their dick, she probably would, Sally isn't what we would call dentist material. Nothing wrong with that, most of us aren't.

Sally' friend Eric does go to dentistry svchool. Despite a massive investment to start up his business, equipment and educational costs are amortized over several decades, and with an income similar to Sally's but with a typical career spanning of 40 years, who do we think comes out ahead?

All this to say, tipping is a personal thing. I have tipped, I've not. The fact that the girl is ostensibly making a lot of money per hour does not mean she is rich. I'm at the top of my earning game, and have made more (and spent more) than Sally did during her career, and I'm far from rich - do the math, someone making say $50K/year takes about twice as long, and probably has more to show for it in the end.

Bottom line - short term lucrative job coincident with the worst point in a person's life to be giving them large amounts of money, vs. long-term slow but steady gains in a career.

 

[YouVantOption]

Anyone remember the rant from Reservoir Dogs?

Which one?

"Dick, dick, dick, dick, dick!

How many dicks is that?

A lot!"

?

 

[metoo4]

Sad but true, IMHO, I have no reason to think about the lady's carreer plans. Girls that are good at what they do, and have the will to do it, moves forward, no matter if we're talking about a dentist or an escort. There's a huge market for dentist and independant courtisanes. Usually, with experience, the price goes up...

I don't see the point of peoples bringing back the "..she's making money only for a few years..." argument. This is an non-issue and doesn't relate. After being an sp, the girl isn't sudently becoming a "reject", she still have the possibility do do "regular' work. Somebody winning the lottery won't win year after years, same with an escort: no need to spend it all right away.

Tipping the lady doesn't help her in planning her career, doesn't help the escort to quit and find something else either. If she have no plans, tipping make it look even better to keep going without one.

Long term $$$ wealth of the escort isn't a main concern for me. She plan her future and I plan mine. I don't mean I'm looking forward to see her end-up pennyless, no way! But she have a chance at making good money for a while, I can't force her to think about the future if she doesn't want to.

Lots of escorts/strippers go to school. How many are bullshitting about it and how many aren't? It's quite impossible to know. I personally cought a few lying and was able to prove it but, I also met a few who were dead serious, left the sex business after school was over and now have damn good jobs! Those are the ones who had real plans and I'm happy for them. Others? Well, their plans were not to have any so, there's nothing I can do for them.

Tips in restaurants? I usually tip 10% of total, after taxes and round-up to closest dollar (In Quebec). If service is better than expected and the server is doing a great job at making me feel like somebody more important than I really am, then I'll take the taxes total (about 15% in Quebec) and round-it up to the closest dollar.

 

[YouVantOption]

Tipping the lady doesn't help her in planning her career, doesn't help the escort to quit and find something else either. If she have no plans, tipping make it look even better to keep going without one.

You are right! And we should all stop washing for a few days before calling an SP, and make sure we run away without paying, because, you know, we don't want to encourage them.

After all, it isn't our fault that there is rampant white slavery going on, many other girls are being pimped, or are drug addicts, or truly are unemployable in other professions. We deserve to squeeze every penny of value out of our encounters - push hard to get every minute of our time in the mssage parlour or hotel room, and never ever tip. it is our right as consumers!

U.N. Office on Drugs and Crime Fact sheet on human trafficking
Over the past decade, trafficking in human beings has reached epidemic proportions. No country is immune. The search for work abroad has been fuelled by economic disparity, high unemployment and the disruption of traditional livelihoods. Traffickers face few risks and can earn huge profits by taking advantage of large numbers of potential immigrants.

Trafficking in human beings is a crime in which victims are moved from poor environments to more affluent ones, with the profits flowing in the opposite direction, a pattern often repeated at the domestic, regional and global levels. It is believed to be growing fastest in Central and Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union. In Asia, girls from villages in Nepal and Bangladesh – the majority of whom are under 18 – are sold to brothels in India for $1000. Trafficked women from Thailand and the Philippines are increasingly being joined by women from other countries in Southeast Asia. Europol estimates that the industry is now worth several billion dollars a year.

Trafficking in human beings is not confined to the sex industry. Children are trafficked to work in sweatshops as bonded labour and men work illegally in the "three D-jobs" – dirty, difficult and dangerous. A recent CIA report estimated that between 45,000 to 50,000 women and children are brought to the United States every year under false pretenses and are forced to work as prostitutes, abused labourers or servants. UNICEF estimates that more than 200,000 children are enslaved by cross-border smuggling in West and Central Africa. The children are often "sold" by unsuspecting parents who believe their children are going to be looked after, learn a trade or be educated.

In many cases, trafficking patterns are also related to conflict situations as combatants (or even peacekeepers) create a market for the services of victims and the effects of conflict erode the capacity of law enforcement and other authorities to combat the problem. As a form of organized crime, trafficking can also threaten sustainable development and the rule of law, as illicit profits are used for corruption, other criminal activities and, in some cases, terrorism. The assistance, support and rehabilitation of victims is also a significant problem, particularly in source countries where resources are often limited, and in the case of trafficked children, where the need is most acute.

Additionally, the spread of HIV/AIDS among victims trafficked into prostitution makes victim support and repatriation a public health issue. The treatment of victims as a commodity is also a violation of their most basic rights to freedom, autonomy and human dignity. Although these violations are committed by traffickers, it is important for States to respond to alleviate the harm caused to victims by trafficking where possible and, at a minimum, to not cause further harm. Measures against trafficking should also respect the basic substantive and procedural rights of those accused of trafficking.

Trafficking is fostered, in part, by social and economic disparities that create a supply of victims seeking to migrate and a demand for sexual and other services that provide the economic impetus for trafficking. Deterrence and criminal punishments are important elements, but addressing the underlying conditions which drive both supply and demand are also necessary. Another important preventive measure is public information to mobilize support for effective laws, raise the awareness of key law enforcement and other officials, and to make the socially marginalized groups from whom victims are often recruited more aware of the reality of trafficking and less likely to be deceived when approached by traffickers.

Involvement of organized crime
Trafficking is almost always a form of organized crime and should be dealt with using criminal powers to investigate and prosecute offenders for trafficking and any other criminal activities in which they engage. Trafficked persons should also be seen as victims of crime. Support and protection of victims is a humanitarian objective and an important means of ensuring that victims are willing and able to assist in criminal cases.

As with other forms of organized crime, trafficking has globalized. Groups formerly active in specific routes or regions have expanded the geographical scope of their activities to explore new markets. Some have merged or formed cooperative relationships, expanding their geographical reach and range of criminal activities. Illegal migrants and trafficking victims have become another commodity in a larger realm of criminal commerce involving other commodities, such as narcotic drugs and firearms or weapons and money laundering, that generate illicit revenues or seek to reduce risks for traffickers.

The relatively low risks of trafficking and substantial potential profits have, in some cases, induced criminals to become involved as an alternative to other, riskier criminal pursuits. With the adoption of the Protocol to Prevent, Suppress and Punish Trafficking in Persons, Especially Women and Children, supplementing the UN Convention against Transnational Organized Crime in November 2000, countries have begun to develop the necessary criminal offences and enforcement powers to investigate, prosecute and punish traffickers and to confiscate their profits, but expertise and resources will be needed to make the new measures fully effective.

Risks are further reduced by the extent to which victims are intimidated by traffickers, both in destination countries, where they fear deportation or prosecution for offences such as prostitution or illegal immigration, and in their countries of origin, where they are often vulnerable to retaliation or re-victimization if they cooperate with criminal justice authorities. The support and protection of victims is a critical element in the fight against trafficking to increase their willingness to cooperate with authorities and as a necessary means of rehabilitation

 

[metoo4]

YVO, you know that's not what I ment. What's the point of your huge attachment? It's irrelevant to this issue. We're not talking about trafficking or slavery here, we're talking about tipping. Are you implying that, by not tipping, we encourage trafficking and slavery? You make me say things I don't mean so, I don't see a problem returning the favor! Tipping an escort won't change the balance on who's being pimped, abused, forced and the ones who do it freely. Please, don't mix apples and oranges.

Tipping regularly only make it expected, no matter if desserved or not. That's the way it is with the restauration industry and same could happen with SP. I can tip but usually, I'll do it by extanding the appointment. The point of a tip is to make the other feel good so, making her know I like her enough to spend more time with her is doing the trick, IMHO. Of course, only if she feels like staying and if she's available.

 

[Turbodick]

I think it's okay to tip if your expectations have been well-surpassed, but not okay to do it automatically. If so, it will become expected and I wouldn't be surprised if a girl's base agency rate went down. I don't think HDH should ever get tipped since they're already commanding a premium.

 

[montreal_monk01]

I think it's okay to tip if your expectations have been well-surpassed, but not okay to do it automatically.

Exact. Tipping should be a way of thanking a job that's well done and left at the discretion of the satisfied customer. Unfortunately, outside of the escort business, seems like tipping is becoming an obligation (restaurant, bars) -> imagine the message that's being sent: whether your service is good or not, you'll get your tip anyway! That's bad.

 

[YouVantOption]

YVO, you know that's not what I ment. What's the point of your huge attachment? It's irrelevant to this issue.

Is it?

Again, you said [quote Tipping the lady doesn't help her in planning her career, doesn't help the escort to quit and find something else either. If she have no plans, tipping make it look even better to keep going without one.[/quote]

Suppose during one's travels one encounters a Russian sex slave. You tip. She gives her slave-master the usual amount. She keeps the tip, secretly. She eventually saves enough to break free. I'd say that helps the escort to quit and find something else.

 

[metoo4]

YVO, your hypothesis equals mine. This situation is as likely as girls here planning for their future: both are possible. A plan is required in both situation. But the kind of exploitation you refers to is quite rare here, we're not in Russia so, back to comparing apples and oranges. Would I tip in Russia? I'd rather avoid hobbying than risking to get a sex slave.

Call me naive but possible exploitation is one of the reason I try to avoid 18-ish ladies... Usually, older gals will be less influenced and have more chances of working by choice. This is by no mean an absolute guarantee but, IMHO, it increase the odds. There's well-known agencies in Montreal I never called and probably never will because of the "smell of exploitation" I get, yet there's others I don't mind asking for 18-20yo ladies because of past experiences I had talking to former employees. Even more when the 18yo's been that age since over 1 year!

 

[YouVantOption]

YVO, your hypothesis equals mine. This situation is as likely as girls here planning for their future: both are possible. A plan is required in both situation. But the kind of exploitation you refers to is quite rare here, we're not in Russia so, back to comparing apples and oranges. Would I tip in Russia? I'd rather avoid hobbying than risking to get a sex slave.

Call me naive but possible exploitation is one of the reason I try to avoid 18-ish ladies... Usually, older gals will be less influenced and have more chances of working by choice.

Sheesh. read what I posted - the sex slavery doesn't happen in Russia - they export the women from Asia and former Soviet socialist republics ... to places like the rest of Europe and North America, so NO, the type of exploitation I am talking about is NOT rare here. Sorry to burst your bubble and make you lose your erection, but if you really think that more girls are sucking dick to save for college than are being pimped, you are either naive or willfully ignoring the issue.

The stats that I saw reported last year when the U.N. report came out were on the order of 40,000 eastern european women PER YEAR (in fact, I believe it was 40,000 Romanian women per year) are being sold into sex slavery. Asia is another hugely popular source of sex slaves. A lot of them end up, yes in Europe, but a considerable number are sold here in North America as well.

Now, care to guess WHY there are so many Russian and 'Chinese' massage parlours in town?

I think it is great that you keep your eyes open for exploitation and don't use those services, and to raise others' consciousness to that of yours is precisely my intention for posting this stuff.

I've seen some dreadfully naive statements on this site, including, respectfully, yours about sex slavery being rare here. I've seen posts by MERB members who are looked up to for their activities in the street action section make incredibly moronic and downright life-threateningly dangerous statements about some STDs like Hep C being curable.

I do enjoy SPs, don't get me wrong. I use their services often enough. But I do think that if we are to participate in this 'hobby' then we as consumers have a responsibility to be aware of the real situation lurking just below the surface (Mafia running most of the Laval Mps, the Hell Angels running sexy4U, and the Grand Prix for example) and conduct ourselves accordingly. To do anything less is to contirbute to the criminal exploitation of helpless victims.

 

[metoo4]

Sheesh. read what I posted - the sex slavery doesn't happen in Russia - they export the women from Asia and former Soviet socialist republics ...

Hu? Read below:

Suppose during one's travels one encounters a Russian sex slave. You tip. She gives her slave-master the usual amount. She keeps the tip, secretly. She eventually saves enough to break free. I'd say that helps the escort to quit and find something else.

Gotcha! Ok, the Russian might not be in Russia... I give you a "pass" on this one...

The stats that I saw reported last year when the U.N. report came out were on the order of 40,000 eastern european women PER YEAR (in fact, I believe it was 40,000 Romanian women per year) are being sold into sex slavery. Asia is another hugely popular source of sex slaves. A lot of them end up, yes in Europe, but a considerable number are sold here in North America as well.

Problem is, these are statistics based on estimates so, an average based on whatever is visible and what's presumed laying below, unseen. Bottom line: useless besides to make peoples react positively to a specific agenda. It's an equation based on 2 unknown so, the result can't be that accurate!
I do agree the problem of slavery does exist but, having peoples try to quantify the numbers and annouce them as facts does bother me. It's intrinsically dishonest to try quantifying a number that can't be verified and to try applying it to a general population.

Think about it: 40,000 girls per year! That's an entire town vanishing! We might agree to "beurrer épais" (spread it thick?) in order to get a point across but, when it's blatantly improbable, credibility can't do anything but go down, undermining any effort to get the problem recognized. IMHO, any "numbers" who is devised from approximation have no scientific value when the error margin can't even be defined.

Now, care to guess WHY there are so many Russian and 'Chinese' massage parlours in town?

And this is one reason I stay away from these parlours: the "smell" of exploitation is too strong. It's easy to spot the "abused" ones: look like zombies, no interest whatsoever, barely speak the language, are all about prices... Not all like this but still...

I think it is great that you keep your eyes open for exploitation and don't use those services, and to raise others' consciousness to that of yours is precisely my intention for posting this stuff.

Nothing wrong about the post itself, it's the thread it's posted in that doesn't fit, IMHO.
Everybody should keep an eye open for exploitation. It's there and even outside the sex work.

I've seen some dreadfully naive statements on this site, including, respectfully, yours about sex slavery being rare here.

Unless proven with valid stats, I still believe it's not the norm with most agency/independant in Montreal. If we include incalls, massage parlors and street walkers, then the picture will certainly change a lot but still, saying it's the norm would be, IMHO, stretching it. The norm being over 50% of the business operating by slavery/abuse.

I've seen posts by MERB members who are looked up to for their activities in the street action section make incredibly moronic and downright life-threateningly dangerous statements about some STDs like Hep C being curable.

I agree with you this is sick and peoples stating such things are total morons. Real studies were done in schools and, surprise, lots of teens today think even AIDS can be cured with pills! Coincidence? There was a big education buzz in the late 80's early 90's and now, it stopped. Peoples who are in their late 20s early 30s today know about AIDS but the ones who are younger mostly don't. It is sad and I am horrified by such thing but, it doesn't relate to this thread.

I do enjoy SPs, don't get me wrong. I use their services often enough. But I do think that if we are to participate in this 'hobby' then we as consumers have a responsibility to be aware of the real situation lurking just below the surface (Mafia running most of the Laval Mps, the Hell Angels running sexy4U, and the Grand Prix for example) and conduct ourselves accordingly. To do anything less is to contirbute to the criminal exploitation of helpless victims.

I am with you 100% on this one. At the first "smell" of something fishy, we should be out of there.

 

[YouVantOption]

these are statistics {my citation that 40.000 Eastern European women are sold into slavery yearly ~ YVO) based on estimates so, an average based on whatever is visible and what's presumed laying below, unseen. Bottom line: useless besides to make peoples react positively to a specific agenda.

Yeah, you must be right. I don't trust those anti-slavery people either. They certainly have a lot of motivation to lie about such things, or at least puff up the figures.

like this bullshit taken from testimony to the U.S. congressional subcommittee investigating such activities - talk about thin!

United Nations (UN) reports estimate that 4 million women have been trafficked from one country to another and within countries. U.S. reports cite 700,000 to two million women and children internationally trafficked each year into the sex industry and for labor, with 50,000 into the United States. All estimates, however, are preliminary.

So tipping these women, you could not be more right, is a waste of money, because sex slavery and plain old pimping could never happen here, and it is all part of some feminist agenda to encroach on our fun. Fuckers.

 

[YouVantOption]

If she brings even more money in tips its all going to encourage the pimp to pimp his girls to the more well off clients who show there appreciation.. Doesn't the pimp shake her till the last cent drops from her dress?

I don't see tipping changing sex slavery, maybe education, social programs and police enforcement to protect the girls but tips won't stop pimping IMHO.

Tiping only adds an extra diamond on the PIMP's BLING or teeth.

In some cases you are doubtlessly correct, in others, I'd hope, and think that at least an extra $20 might help to facilitate a more rapid exit from such a circumstance.

Anyway, the existance of sex slavery is not a high motivator for me to tip, I am much more likely to tip due to exceptional service or a particularly fantastic body. The mention of sex slavery was made to countermand the assertion that 'all these girls are making piles of money and so we shouldn't tip, ever, because then they will grow to expect it' which is just plain silly, paternalistic, and diminishes SPs to the level of Pavlovian dogs.