Taking care of our own - meaning SPs

[Just-ass-weet]

I am sure you all think I am nothing more than a callous b*tch at this point, but I really am quite sensitive and it takes quite a bit to get me to the point that I have been at this week. That said, I am not past the point of no forgiveness and no compassion, and if you don't understand it right now, my pushing on certain things are meant as eye openers as much for the people they are directed at as they are for myself and others.

It is too bad we don't already have a sexworkers union or other support group - but we don't. That doesn't mean that we cannot band together to help one another or to keep each other safe. I have a few ideas I would like to share though I am not sure of the feasibility of any of it... so here, I am looking for ideas.

-How can we help ladies transition out of SPing? I am looking at school, jobs (thank Roxanna), financial aid, support, etc...

-How can we protect our community from disease? Is there a way we can do a buddy system for std checks? Maybe one person in charge, elected to take care of that? And what happens if someone is found to have an STI?

-How do we assure that girls are not forced to do things that do not want to do, either through manipulation, drugs, or physical force? If we find out something like this happens, how can we handle it?

Just a few thoughts, and I know it is limited, and probably ridiculous, but I am just throwing it out there for discussion.

xoxox
Anik

 

[Canadian Joe 652]

Anik,

I do not think you in the terms that you define yourself, but rather as a courageous person making a decent gesture where one was needed.

If I can help in any way to support any efforts being undertaken in any of the 3 themes that you touch I will be happy to help.

You have, at least from me, the recognition of your actions.

 

[ZoneAlarm]

I am sure you all think I am nothing more than a callous b*tch at this point, but I really am quite sensitive and it takes quite a bit to get me to the point that I have been at this week. That said, I am not past the point of no forgiveness and no compassion, and if you don't understand it right now, my pushing on certain things are meant as eye openers as much for the people they are directed at as they are for myself and others.

It is too bad we don't already have a sexworkers union or other support group - but we don't. That doesn't mean that we cannot band together to help one another or to keep each other safe. I have a few ideas I would like to share though I am not sure of the feasibility of any of it... so here, I am looking for ideas.

-How can we help ladies transition out of SPing? I am looking at school, jobs (thank Roxanna), financial aid, support, etc...

-How can we protect our community from disease? Is there a way we can do a buddy system for std checks? Maybe one person in charge, elected to take care of that? And what happens if someone is found to have an STI?

-How do we assure that girls are not forced to do things that do not want to do, either through manipulation, drugs, or physical force? If we find out something like this happens, how can we handle it?

Just a few thoughts, and I know it is limited, and probably ridiculous, but I am just throwing it out there for discussion.

xoxox
Anik

I think one of the main things that will determine how and if people will eventually get out is if they are doing escorting as a career or if they are doing it to pay for school or a house wtv. Oviously now a days you need education in order to get a good job. So i guess everyone has to pick something they like. Also about finances. Im not gonna estimate how much a SP makes but if she manages her money well and she is successful in this industry that should provide enough for a while.

 

[breadman]

some more thoughts...

-How can we help ladies transition out of SPing? I am looking at school, jobs (thank Roxanna), financial aid, support, etc...

-How can we protect our community from disease? Is there a way we can do a buddy system for std checks? Maybe one person in charge, elected to take care of that? And what happens if someone is found to have an STI?

-How do we assure that girls are not forced to do things that do not want to do, either through manipulation, drugs, or physical force? If we find out something like this happens, how can we handle it?

You've got very little control over the SP population...and NO control over the guys using the SP's. Montreal is a hobby destination...and many hobbiest travel all over the world seeing SP's that won't be in your union.

Im sure the bikers and the pimps are shaking in their boots right now with your words of unionization. Government has a hard time to getting rid of them, you think talk is going to make them let the girls do a regular 9 to 5 job? Quit kidding yourself already, if you find out something call the cops...im sure they'll break down all the 'rent by the hour' hotel room doors. No...the cops have too much on their plate now as it is...murder, rape, burglary...you name it. Prostitition comes last.

 

[Agrippa]

[...] I have a few ideas I would like to share though I am not sure of the feasibility of any of it...

I am asking out of ignorance and naiveté: isn't this what Stella is supposed to be doing?

 

[Just-ass-weet]

I am not talking unions, but maybe a small resource where SPs can go to find some support in whatever areas affect them. How much an SP makes is also an interesting topic, and having somewhere where they can talk about investment, or savings might also be a great idea.

How about we start with some of those... I am sure, amongst our community we have people who could help in many areas:

Financial planning
Job Search
Information on going back to school
Babysitting
Shelter
and much more...

I want to spend some time looking at positive stuff - it is such a beautiful breezy evening!

For job search, I have a few friends that own restaurants that likely would gladly train and hire someone. I wish I had better connections, but maybe someone else does.

Babysitting is something a few of us can offer (though that might not be easy considering alot of us do not know each other very well)

Ideally, we would even be able to set up some sort of account for girls to get some financial aid if they are forced out of the biz.

xoxox
Anik

 

[Big Daddy]

I am not talking unions, but maybe a small resource where SPs can go to find some support in whatever areas affect them. How much an SP makes is also an interesting topic, and having somewhere where they can talk about investment, or savings might also be a great idea.

How about we start with some of those... I am sure, amongst our community we have people who could help in many areas:

Financial planning
Job Search
Information on going back to school
Babysitting
Shelter
and much more...

I want to spend some time looking at positive stuff - it is such a beautiful breezy evening!

For job search, I have a few friends that own restaurants that likely would gladly train and hire someone. I wish I had better connections, but maybe someone else does.

Babysitting is something a few of us can offer (though that might not be easy considering alot of us do not know each other very well)

Ideally, we would even be able to set up some sort of account for girls to get some financial aid if they are forced out of the biz.

xoxox
Anik

Anik:

As far as STD thread is concerned, you did the right thing. I think that you are probably feeling guilty for hurting your friend, but sometimes it is hard to state the truth and you absolutely did the right thing.

Now, coming back to the topic of this thread. What you are suggesting works in "theory" and not in reality (I really hope that I am wrong on this one). The reason I say that these things work in theory is because you are eliminating the "human" element from your proposal. My own experience with financial planning and job search is that you have to learn to do this yourself. Anytime you involve someone else in these decisions, you will end up wasting a lot of your time and come out more confused (just like the HSV-2 discussions on the std thread).

The other things like babysitting etc., you might end up with a lot of bickering on schedule conflicts and who owes what to whom?

Sorry to sound negative, but I have seen many times that ideas such as yours end up creating its own problems. As I said before, I hope I am wrong on this and everything works out for you.

 

[putneyswope]

Network with Amsterdam

Find out what they are doing in Amsterdam, network with them and go for it!

 

[vodka236]

Just-ass-weet... this idea is
great. I'm glad you brought up
this thread.

I am willing to contribute.
I am currently with an sp so
it can help her aswell.

She see flashback of bad
clients... and don't know
how to deal with these bad
memories. I'm just being
there for her, but if this
persist I think I'll need
more help not only medical
help but also from ex-sp.

I was thinking of a new board.
A board which will maximize
(ex)sp full potential.

I can setup a new board for
montreal sp on my own local
server. There will be alot
of smiley face available.
I will moderate it at first
to make sure everything
run smooth.

I've created a board in the
pass for students, so this
is nothing new for me.

PS: I'm out of town this week
but I promise to setup a test
board when I'm back.

Even if it can help 2 or 3,
I think it worth it.

vodka236

 

[Montreal Sex City]

Il y aura-t-il finalement une solidarité ?

Chère Anik,

Premièrement je vais m`exprimer en français afin que tu comprenne bien ce que je dis en espérant que cette fois le tout ne dégénèrera pas comme ce qu`il vient de se passer les 3 derniers jours.

Tu sauras que l`idée de l`union, des services GFE, des filles qui ne font pas assez d`argent pour les services offers, de la protection des filles dans le milieu, de la protection de leur santé, du contrôle de toutes sortes de facteurs dans la communauté est déjà en cours de discussion depuis des mois. Toutefois, lorsque le projet m`a été présenté, je l`ai trouvé assez défaillant en plusieurs points. J`ai émis clairement mes désaccords, mes raisons et encore mieux, fais d`autres suggestions plus appropriées.

Le fait que Sunny se soit présenté sur le forum avec l`idée du 200$ de l`heure avec, disons le franchement, une approche plus qu`inappropriée, n`as certes pas aidé les choses. Le fait que la route que je prenais dans le thread concernant la hausse des prix n`expliquant pas en totalité les points ci-haut mentionnés était stratégiquement une introduction à une nouvelle façon de voir ces aspects et d`éduquer pas à pas la communauté envers les problèmes grandissants, parlant du fait même des maladies transmisibles sexuellement. Toutefois, disons le sincèrement, je ne crois pas que tu ais vue où je m`en allais avec le post et que le sujet a été complètement redirigé sur des détails qui personellement faisaient ni queue ni tête.

Maintenant, revenons-y, si tu me le permet.

Oui il y a des suggestions sur la table et non cela ne se passera pas comme ça! Tu veux commencer par les MTS, ok. Voici la solution suggérée à la base qui ferait qu`il serait possible d`avoir un contrôle sur les MTS, et par le fait même sur les mineurs, sur la protection des filles etc...<

Banque de données avec informations persoellis de tous, propriétaires, chauffeurs, bookers, filles et ce, avec photos à l`appui ! Non seulement il est suggéré de la faire avec infos et photos, mais cette banque de données seraient accessible aux propriétaires d`agences, et aux services de protection publique pour ne pas les appeler autrement ...

Ça t`intéresses-tu Anik ?

Et la je vais discuter de ce point premier avant de te parler des autres suggestions proposées, juste pour éviter que le tout soit mélangé.

Commentaires s`il vous plaît !

 

[mr_scorpio]

I am not talking unions, but maybe a small resource where SPs can go to find some support in whatever areas affect them. How much an SP makes is also an interesting topic, and having somewhere where they can talk about investment, or savings might also be a great idea.

How about we start with some of those... I am sure, amongst our community we have people who could help in many areas:

Financial planning
Job Search
Information on going back to school
Babysitting
Shelter
and much more...

I want to spend some time looking at positive stuff - it is such a beautiful breezy evening!

For job search, I have a few friends that own restaurants that likely would gladly train and hire someone. I wish I had better connections, but maybe someone else does.

Babysitting is something a few of us can offer (though that might not be easy considering alot of us do not know each other very well)

Ideally, we would even be able to set up some sort of account for girls to get some financial aid if they are forced out of the biz.

xoxox
Anik

I am a licensed financial planner/advisor working for a major Canadian bank. I would be more than willing to provide help to sp's that need that kind of asistance. Just send me a message.

 

[frankrob]

Three suggestions for better, safer conditions for SPs

First, I will admit I have not hobbied in Montreal yet, but I am an experienced hobbyist and I think this is a great idea.

In fact, I'd prefer to see an SP who had a safe, positive work environment. Many men in the US refuse to see streetwalkers because they are abused by pimps, and won't go to Asian Massage Parlors because of the coercion in those situations.

But additionally, I think better conditions for SPs will be better for the guys, too. Service would be more sensual if SPs were less concerned about their safety and health, and the risk of STDs would be lower for everyone if there was a practical level of screening. Also, I think more women of all types might consider SPing if it were safer.

Here are a few ideas I have seen that have been used by escorts or MPs. I must admit, for these to work, at least one agency or many independents would have to support the idea:
1) Require referrals from men. I've seen escorts ask for the name and phone number of an escort you've seen, and they call them to see what you're like before accepting an appt. Sure, with all these traveling businessmen, many men won't have local referrals, but this can also create an incentive for men to behave like gentlemen themselves to establish a good referral -- more SPs would be willing to take them as clients, and some SPs could choose to see only men with good referrals.
2) Agencies could keep track of men's histories. There was a massage parlor that used to ask for a name and a "birth day" (both could be fake), and they'd keep track of it in their little black book. When you called them back, they could verify that the person was a previous client and check what the man was like. Granted, this was done primarily to avoid police detection (which isn't an issue in Montreal), but this could also be done for safety.
3) SPs could briefly inspect men beforehand. I once went to a famous brothel in Nevada, and after I got naked she quickly inspected me. I think this could be done discreetly and even sensually, and there should be ways for an SP to know how to look for transmissible diseases like herpes. I also think SPs should be tested monthly and the results should be shown to the agencies.

I think the above would be difficult to do, but I would prefer it. Everybody benefits if hobbiyng is safer with fewer diseases.

Last, the question of how women can get out of being an SP. First, I don't think there's anything wrong with the profession, and I think some women may choose to get out as soon as they can, others may not. I think it could be nice to make some kind of resources available. I don't know how effective this would be, but SPs could share advice on how they save their money and how they structure their budgets. Hopefully, SPs who move on to other careers and businesses can share their habits.

However, assuming there is no kind of coercion, if an SP wants to get out of this field, I think it is largely up to her. I speculate that SPs can make a lot of money, but that it's difficult to save, spend judiciously, and to work toward a larger goal. I know when I was in my early 20s I made some easy money (not by being an SP), but that I didn't appreciate the opportunity and wasted the money (in fact, not only did I spend all the money, I even built up debt on my credit cards). So, I think it is very difficult to be fiscally practical and disciplined in one's youth, but it can be done.

Just my opinion.
Frank

 

[jacep]

1) Require referrals from men. I've seen escorts ask for the name and phone number of an escort you've seen, and they call them to see what you're like before accepting an appt. Sure, with all these traveling businessmen, many men won't have local referrals, but this can also create an incentive for men to behave like gentlemen themselves to establish a good referral -- more SPs would be willing to take them as clients, and some SPs could choose to see only men with good referrals.

When I first started hobbying, I didn't have any references and wanted to see a SP that asked for an SP reference and a contact phone number. I don't recall if she wanted my contact number before she would provide me with her's or whether she just wanted my contact number. Anyways, she's still on this board so maybe I'll ask her what she did. lol.

After sending her one or two e-mails, I guess that she felt safe enough to forego the SP reference and we arranged to meet. If she had decided to stick with the SP reference, I would have accepted it without mentioning anything.

However, now that I've seen a few SPs, I'm wondering how SPs that I see somewhat regularly would feel about being a "reference" for me. If for example, I see an SP regularly that charges $200/hour and the SP that I want to see charges $150/hour but wants a reference, would the SP that I see regularly feel comfortable enough to give a good reference fearing that she might lose a repeat customer to a lower priced SP? Also, what if the SP that I saw regularly was lower priced and I wanted to see someone who charged more, would the SP that I saw regularly be upset that I was paying someone more than I was paying her?

At first I thought that the SPs wouldn't really care but after witnessing some of the cattiness and catfighting on this board, I'm beginning to wonder.

 

[Just-ass-weet]

Frankrob and Jimace,

I have used references, particularly in the US where it is mighty useful imho. However, here in Montreal, I doubt very much that would work.

Yes, in the US there is some cattiness concerning references that happen now and again. Usually, what seems to happen most is that the lady the guy wants to see asks for a reference, then the lady who is the reference, goes to the guy and asks him to see her at a discounted rate. It doesn't happen often, but unfortunately, once in a while, it does.

To resolve this for the most part there is a resource called Date-Check (www.date-check.com), where each gentleman has a member ID, that can be searched via his email address or the ID itself. Once you find him, you cross reference the email address, and then you can see who has seen him and whether they okayed him or nayed him. It would work just fine here, and it allows us to get a reference without checking in with the reference directly or giving out too much personal information.

If you want a free invite there, men or women (it is 3-months free) - let me know. Right now, the list is small for Montreal, but it could easily grow

Anik

 

[jacep]

If you want a free invite there, men or women (it is 3-months free) - let me know. Right now, the list is small for Montreal, but it could easily grow

Anik

Thanks for the offer. I don't think that I will use it.

I don't have any issues with SPs asking for whatever they feel they comfortably need. I've also never been upset by this. People who know me and SPs who have met me, know that I'm very easy going and things related to hobbying (as well as some other things) rarely bother me.

1) If a SP asks me for something and I don't feel comfortable providing it (like driver's license, place where I work, real complete name, etc.), I will mention it but I won't strongly try to or insist that she change her criteria. If she happens to change her criteria, that's fine. If she doesn't, that's fine as well and I just see someone else.

2) Now that I'm no longer a newbie, if a SP asks me for a reference and I don't want to get involved in any cattiness or issues with the "reference" SP over why I want to see someone else or whether she will lose me as a "regular" customer, I will just mention why I don't want to get involved in providing a reference. If the SP foregos this, that's fine. If not, it is also fine.

3) If I'm on the excluded list for whatever reason (height, weight, ethnicity, etc.), I just see someone else.

In all my cases, it is what the SP feels comfortable with. It is not my place to try to make her change her criteria and I would not even try to make someone change their criteria.

When one of the first SPs that I met asked me for a provider reference, I mentioned that I didn't have one because I was a newbie hobbyist, gave a short description of myself, and said that if she didn't want to meet, that was fine and all she had to do was let me know. She told me that based on my e-mail(s), she decided to forego the provider reference. If she didn't, I would have just tried to see a different SP. For me, it wasn't a big deal.

I've never been in a position where I felt that I HAD to see a particular SP. I've always felt that it would be nice to see a particular SP but if we couldn't arrange it for whatever reason, that is fine also since I could always see someone else.

SPs should always do what they're comfortable with doing.

 

[oobe]

References

I can't see the reference system becoming the norm in Mtl. It may work in some places where it's a way to avoid police operations, but how would you convince agencies who get impulse calls for mindless 18 yo chicks?
- sorry sir, you need to wait 24h while we perform a background check.
- fuck off, I want some meat now!
I'm afraid this would only cater to an elite of distinguished gentlemen the way some HDH agencies do, while the majority would continue in their careless ways.

 

[Montreal Sex City]

Ben la !

Jessy,

J'apprécie ton idée, et je dois dire que j'apprécie d'autant plus quand tu t'exprimes en français. Je veux juste dire une chose, et c'est pas pour te tomber dessus, mais je serais en désaccord avec une telle base de données, car elle existe déjà, et mon nom y figure d'ailleurs.

Bon bon bon... alors même si je m'exprime en français, il est évident qu'on ne se comprends pas la !

Oui il y a des suggestions sur la table et non cela ne se passera pas comme ça! Tu veux commencer par les MTS, ok. Voici la solution suggérée ...

Et avec ton idée: ...

Ben encore la ... c'est pas ''mon idée'' c'est la suggestion en cours.

...ton idée soit fondée c'est justement sur ce point que je suis le plus en désaccord.

Bon encore, anyway, oui j'en ai des idées mais pas comme celle de la banque de donnée.

Merb est un exemple; je crois qu'on puisse dire qu'il s'agit d'une vraie communauté. Plusieurs têtes ensemble... dialogue... idées. C'est mieux que chacune de notre coté si on souhaite avancer collectivement.
t76

Oui en effet, mais pour le moment je veux attendre d'autres commentaires avant de passer a une autre étape.

Et aussi de m'assurer qu'on se comprends !

 

[Just-ass-weet]

Hello Jessy,

I just wanted to assure you that I wasn't ignoring what you wrote - it takes me a bit longer to read in French - but moreover, I want to make sure I understand you properly. I will reply shortly - I promise. That said, all dialogue is good as long as we remain respectful - and I definitely will - again, I promise

Jimace - although I do agree with what you are saying in terms of not supplying references or whatever for xyz reasons, if most guys would do that in the USA (for example) it could "force" girls to allow no-screening, because they wouldn't have clients otherwise. I think that is what makes screening almost impossible here, I don't think ladies really "choose" to see guys here with no screening, I just don't think there is any other viable choice, so the only real choice is whether the girl wants to work in Montreal or not, knowing the conditions of working here. I don't see screening as happening anytime soon here.

Anik

 

[Just-ass-weet]

Hello Jessy, thanks for your addition.

Though I believe we likely have the same interest at heart - taking care of the girls - I wasn't talking about starting anything official, or interfering with how agencies operate or regulating rates, or even services. What I would like to see (however impossible it might be in practice) is a place, independent of all that, that ladies can turn to, for whatever needs they may have.

I would love to see it where all agencies would put aside a small amount of each call, into a fund that would help ladies who must leave the business for some reason or another. A kind of RRSP (lol). I would also love it, if girls were given the resources to do that a bit themselves as well. I am not sure any agency would do that - or even if they have the resources to do that! However, as usual, I am a dreamer.

I would like to see those of us with connections, in industries outside of this business, help each other find other options if that is an interest of someone who wants to get out of SPing. Clothing swaps, babysitting, etc... anything that will put each of the girls one step closer to whatever their dreams are. I loved SPing, but it isn't my dream, and I don't think it is the dream of most ladies, this was a great stepping stone for me, and I was fortunate enough to meet some genuinely nice people, who had nothing but my best interest in mind... I would love to ensure that all ladies meet at least one person who can be that for them.

Another thing I would love to see is some kind of fun support group - like a morning coffee, or a cocktail night, just the girls, talking to other girls. My feeling is that many ladies are isolated, and most of their friends and family don't k know what they do. Of course, this wouldn't have to be something where the sole focus would be "work" talk. I have thought about it often - maybe a mani/pedi day - not only would we likely be able to get a great discount for the services, but we'd create a better support system for the ladies.

Again, I am a dreamer, and in my dreams none of the girls who work are forced to (whether by drugs, physically or for lack of any other options), none of the girls are mean (we all can be at times) and there are no clients that are dangerous or a-holes. Ah, let me dream!

I would be happy to help out on something, even a small step can be make a good change. Ah, happy thoughts for today to all of you.

Anik

PS - if I misinterpreted anything you wrote - I apologize

 

[jacep]

Jimace - although I do agree with what you are saying in terms of not supplying references or whatever for xyz reasons, if most guys would do that in the USA (for example) it could "force" girls to allow no-screening, because they wouldn't have clients otherwise. I think that is what makes screening almost impossible here, I don't think ladies really "choose" to see guys here with no screening, I just don't think there is any other viable choice, so the only real choice is whether the girl wants to work in Montreal or not, knowing the conditions of working here. I don't see screening as happening anytime soon here.

Anik

Well, speaking from my understanding/interpretation, with indies, there is always a form of screening that goes on as indie SPs which starts with the first e-mail or the first phone call. How thorough the screening is, is another issue.

I'm not sure how successful the SP reference issue is here in Montreal since I'm not a SP. When I saw traveller_76 under her old handle/alias, I was a newbie so it wasn't a question of feeling comfortable giving a SP reference. I would hope that I didn't "force" her to see me since I mentioned when I contacted her that I didn't have an issue/problem with her refusing to see me (or anyone else). Now, that I'm no longer a newbie, I'm not sure how I feel about it because of issues that can arise between the SP giving the reference and the customer/me and also the jealousy/cattiness that can arise between the SPs involved.

As a newbie, I also once gave my complete name to an SP who wanted to contact me at the hotel and the hotel wouldn't transfer the call to my room from a lady caller who couldn't provide the complete name.

When traveller_76 was working, she used to ask for a provider reference. Maybe she can answer what percentage of the people that she saw as an indie who weren't newbies actually provided a SP reference. Even though I would like to consider myself special and I was an exception I'm sure that I'm probably not the only person she saw that didn't provide a provider reference or maybe I am.

I've always felt that SPs should do what they feel comfortable doing (in the actual act) as well as seeing who they feel comfortable about seeing.