The Anti-Civilization Thread

[Kepler]

The logic of the Capital says this: "If I have a glass of water to spare, I would use it to extract 1 gram of gold rather than growing a tomato because 1 gram of gold will up our economy by $25 whereas a tomato will only generate a $0.10 return."

If that were true we'd have nothing but gold to eat. But people, even large companies, do in fact produce tomatoes, even in North America.

And most people demand more from life than tomatoes. Most people also want comfort and some "luxury" (washing machine or computer at home, TV, car, and, <gasp!> even gold jewelry).

I find it interesting that most countries which chose communism got poorer and only now that they've chosen capitalism are they getting richer. Inversely, previously rich countries such as Zimbabwe which recently turned away from civil and property rights are currently sliding into poverty.

 

[z/m(Ret)]

The planet as a whole started out as "poor". The West developed democracy and pulled itself out of poverty.

Most of the time, and with the help of tyrants the West sponsored, armed and trained, by stealing its neighbours' natural resources.

 

[z/m(Ret)]

And most people demand more from life than tomatoes. Most people also want comfort and some "luxury" (washing machine or computer at home, TV, car, and, <gasp!> even gold jewelry).

Demanding is one thing, being able to afford it is another thing. Where fresh water supply is insufficient to irrigate cultures, people don't have the luxury of hoping for washing machines and plasma TV's. They're focus is set on survival and, in this view, water management is vital. There would be hope for the large segments of populations missing out on water if they were only given the possibility to manage the little water they have at their disposal, but no, instead, water is not a common good as it should be, but a commodity that can be bought and sold like any other commodity, and in accordance to market discipline. As a result, water management is controlled by corporate interest and its interest - shooting for the highest ROI - is in contradiction with the population's needs.

 

[z/m(Ret)]

But maybe policy is not driven by those polls only because policy makers serve a corporate interest, but also because they know these polls results are talk the talk discontent, not walk the walk. (...)

I'm not as pessimistic as you sound here regarding the scale and impact of people's action. Again, if we are only looking at our own backyard where the deterioration of our environment hasn't yet reached life-threatening levels, then - yes - the bear appears to be sleeping. But if you look elsewhere, it's a whole different story. Just this morning, RC radio, spoke of the recent Bolivia water war victory over Bechtel... One year ago exactly, in Cacahuatepec, Mexico, a farmers halt dam project forced the local authorities to halt a $1 billion hydroelectric dam construction which intent was to redirect 3/4 of the water towards the tourist hot spot of Acapulco (hey, those football-field sized swimming pools in 5-stars resorts take up a lot of water don't they?). In Santa Cruz, CA, sales charts show that the number of SUV's sold in the region has decreased significantly. Any chance that such decrease has something to do with a small group of vandals known as "Oil equals blood" spraypainting SUV's with politically charged messages?

 

[Rexroth]

In Santa Cruz, CA, sales charts show that the number of SUV's sold in the region has decreased significantly. Any chance that such decrease has something to do with a small group of vandals known as "Oil equals blood" spraypainting SUV's with politically charged messages?

Just blips on a very big radar screen? Yeah, they work, but do they really change anything.

Forgive me, I am pessimistic. The whole problem (it’s actually several problems) is systemic. Basically, I (you, we) actually have the political right to abuse the environment.

Consider junk mail. Tomorrow morning, you can go into business and print up a zillion fliers, which you then distribute to a zillion households. The standard return on this kind of advertising is less than 1%, with a read rate not much higher. However, for the most part, the 1% is worth it for the entrepreneur (1% X Zillion = a lot). So that means that close to 100% (how many trees & how much pollution from the bleaching and printing process?) never get used. Pure waste. What’s worse, 100% of these fliers have a life span of about a day, after which if we are lucky, they get recycled. Though, let’s by honest most of them wind up in the garbage. More waste and more pollution. But it’s anybody’s right to do it.

Consider the wrappers on you hamburger the next time you go to Burger King. How many zillion of those do they sell every year? They don’t get anywhere near a recycling bin. They wind up at the city dump as part of tons of material that transforms itself into slime that contaminates surrounding water supplies. But, like before, it’s Burger King’s right.

So, yeah, I am a pessimist, cuz this kind of thing ain’t going to stop anytime soon and it’s part and parcel of the logic that drives development – sustained or not. Buried in the notion of development is an economic logic skewed in favour of profit. Yes, the whole planet is all for sustainable development, but the sustainability part is always subject to an economic logic. And economic logic, like actuaries, only looks at the numbers.

 

[Kepler]

Kepler, how can you blame Tibetan's pacifist view for the genocide they are going through ? Even if they would have used violence against China, do you really think they would have stood a chance?

They certainly would have stood a chance, even against China. The Vietnamese won against the USA, the Afghans won against the USSR, etc. (yes, they had foreign support, as the Tibetans would have likely received).

 

[JustBob]

How can one praise Venezuela for taking control of it's oil ressources while criticizing Alberta for being a cash cow and polluting by developing it's own ressources? That's sounds rather disengenuous to me.

 

[Agrippa]

How can one praise Venezuela for taking control of it's oil ressources while criticizing Alberta for being a cash cow and polluting by developing it's own ressources? That's sounds rather disengenuous to me.

Fair enough except for the fact that in Alberta cash cow is tar sands. It requires more energy to extract and the process is far more polluting.

 

[z/m(Ret)]

So, as I asked you a few times already, what's your solution?t76

To do whatever it takes: learn, think, deconstruct, reconstruct, participate in/form action groups, hold protests, create paintings, throw pies, start an Anti-Civilization thread on an escorts review board (lol), if you believe such symbolic actions can help a cause you hold dear, or, if this is not enough, go for tangible actions: rip GMO cultures, blow up dams, issue threats, execute them if you must, whatever works, alone, not alone, coordinated or not but if you must coordinate, hide in the open, use coded language - transposition ciphers, substitution ciphers, combo locks, anything authorities won't understand... Think of it as a war, what would that make you?

 

[JustBob]

They certainly would have stood a chance, even against China. The Vietnamese won against the USA, the Afghans won against the USSR, etc. (yes, they had foreign support, as the Tibetans would have likely received).

I seriously doubt it. Any attempts of uprising by Tibetans have been crushed by the Chinese. Even the CIA backed insurrection of 1956 had no chance to succeed. At best you'd have ended up with tens of thousands of dead Tibetans and a few pockets of resistance.

 

[JustBob]

They didn't put the industry there. They didn't invent the demand for it. They didn't invent the fact that oil provides wealth. I'll complain about the gas emissions they send off in the atmosphere when we are the example to follow and we get rid of the same industry first. 'We' as in the industrialized world, if that's politically correct enough.

t76

Ok, so you give developing nations a free pass on environmental issues. I wonder how you feel about India and China?

 

[Rexroth]

Puffs, Powders, Patches, Bibles, Billet-doux

Thread: When her pussy is too tight. Views: 903

Thread: The Anti-Civilization Thread. Views: 891


Disclaimer: The point here is not to say anything about the respective worth of these two threads. It does, however, say something about personal priorities.

 

[JustBob]

Fair enough except for the fact that in Alberta cash cow is tar sands. It requires more energy to extract and the process is far more polluting.

Do a search on "Orinoco Tar Belt" and get back to me.

 

[z/m(Ret)]

Just blips on a very big radar screen? Yeah, they work, but do they really change anything. Forgive me, I am pessimistic.

Were the 400 or so Papuan protesters blockading the road to the Freeport mine, about a year ago, optimistic over their chances of having the mine shut down as they saw the Indonesian pigs charging them? Certainly not!

Well, they managed to do so. The largest gold and copper mine in the world located in west Papua was shut down by a handful of locals. Thanks to their action, the local river system runned clean for the first time in 30 years. The protest was in response to an attack by paramilitary police who shot at locals scavenging on the corporation's refuse to waste gold.

A blip on a very big radar screen?

Sure, what's the problem with that? I'm sure the few Papuans who regained their right to scavenge, one of their only ways of making a living, don't see a problem. And then again, blips and radar screens are maybe not the right metaphor: how about seeds and fields instead? Seeds that ramify, interconnect, grow together into cultures? When Papuan students found out about the scavengers protests, they invaded the Freeport offices in Jakarta to smash windows and offices. When the news reached tribal leader Benny Wenda in exile in Britain, he issued a long and inspiring statement: following the release of Wenda's call to outrage, the protest escalated... Seeds growing into cultures...

 

[JustBob]

Think of it as a war, what would that make you?

A potential inmate.

 

[z/m(Ret)]

A potential inmate.

Jail can sometimes be a liberating experience.

 

[Kepler]

How can one praise Venezuela for taking control of it's oil resources while criticizing Alberta for being a cash cow and polluting by developing it's own resources?

<sarcasm>
Because it's much better to buy our oil from people who dislike or hate us (Chavez, Saudis) and have fewer environmental regulations than we do.
</sarcasm>

 

[z/m(Ret)]

Tangado a chadad?

t76

Tangado a chadad, that's right. One can read, write, speak all he wants, dream of a better world, there's nothing - nothing - like making direct contact with certain realities (if there's one who can vouch for that it's you, right?)

If you wish, one day, I'll introduce you to someone who's been observing Quebec rivers all his life. He has quite a lot to say.

 

[z/m(Ret)]

Ha. See!

t76 (silly)

Tell me something new. Been there...

 

[z/m(Ret)]

Thread: When her pussy is too tight. Views: 903

Thread: The Anti-Civilization Thread. Views: 891

Not fair: the pussy thread has Lilly Lombard's banner...