The Joe.T Memorial FM® Yankees Suck Thread for 2008
- Thread starter rumpleforeskiin
- Start date
Hello all,
Just got to start this thread off with a quote from Rumples. Hey Joe.t...
Bronx Cheers,
Korbel
Just got to start this thread off with a quote from Rumples. Hey Joe.t...
Bronx Cheers,
Korbel
No team with a $218 M payroll can ever be considered an underdog. The Yankees either win a championship or fail miserably. So far this century, it's been the latter, year after miserable year.chercherfemmes said:
Clemens and Pettitte to testify.
Hey guys,
Did you think baseball season would start without some staggering controversy? Oh NO! Let the season begin with Yanker players Clemens and Pettitte testifying before Congress...under oath.
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7758706/Attorney:-Clemens-won't-plead-5th
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7746252/Pettitte-meets-with-Congress-over-steroid-issue
Cheers,
Korbel
Hey guys,
Did you think baseball season would start without some staggering controversy? Oh NO! Let the season begin with Yanker players Clemens and Pettitte testifying before Congress...under oath.
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7758706/Attorney:-Clemens-won't-plead-5th
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7746252/Pettitte-meets-with-Congress-over-steroid-issue
Cheers,
Korbel
Did Cashman blow it with Santana???
Hey Guys,
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7737068
Cashman Should Have Pulled The Trigger
by Michael Rosenberg
So if you're Brian Cashman, what is the worst part of this?
That somebody else got Johan Santana?
That the somebody else in question was the cross-city, tabloid-headline-seeking rival Mets?
That Hank Steinbrenner, who wanted Santana, will get increasingly agitated as Santana dominates the National League?
That you're in the last year of your contract?
The answer is ... none of the above. No, the worst part for Cashman is that people will claim he should have gotten Santana, and they will be right.
Cashman could have had Santana. He should have had Santana. And he might really, seriously regret this.
Johan Santana is the best pitcher in baseball. He is in his prime. He would have been well worth the price that Cashman would have had to pay, and here is why:
The Yankees, as you may have heard, spend a lot of money. Their 2007 payroll was $218.3 million. Some perspective: that is more than the combined payrolls of the Cleveland Indians, Arizona Diamondbacks and San Diego Padres. The Yankees will spend more on the left side of their infield than Florida or Tampa Bay will spend on their entire major-league rosters.
This is not another woe-is-baseball,
why-do-the-Yankees-spend-so-much-and-can't-we-have-daytime-World-Series-games rant. It's their money. They can spend it.
My point is that that kind of cash can buy all sorts of goodies. It virtually ensures that the Yankees will have one of the best lineups in baseball every single year. It means they can take a $40 million mulligan on Carl Pavano. It allows the Yankees to sign a setup man for closer-type money.
But that money cannot give the Yankees the most valuable commodity in the sport: a true ace. Not just a No. 1 starter, but an elite No. 1 starter — a guy who contends for Cy Young Awards more often than not. There are only a few of them out there, and they rarely become available before they hit 30. Santana turns 29 in March.
Santana instantly would have been the most valuable player on the Yankees roster. Yes, more valuable than Alex Rodriguez, the best position player in the game. Here is why: if Rodriguez left the Yankees, they would at least have a shot at making up for his production by improving at other positions. If A-Rod had left as a free agent, the Yankees could have signed, say, Mike Lowell, then used the leftover cash to upgrade another position. It wouldn't have been ideal, but the Yankees could still put together a playoff-quality lineup that way.
But there is no way to replace a No. 1 starter. You can't just improve the rest of your pitching staff; it's not the same.
The Yankees should know this. The key to their 1996-2000 championship stretch was ... drumroll, please ... an abundance of TRUE YANKEES! No, I'm kidding. The key was great starting pitching and dominant relief pitching.
In last year's American League Division Series, nominal Yankees ace Chien-Ming Wang gave up 12 runs in 5.7 innings over two starts. That, more than the infamous midges or Derek Jeter's struggles, is what doomed the Yankees. Two miserable starts in a four-game series are almost impossible to overcome, especially against a great team.
Santana, meanwhile, has not give up 12 runs in any two-start span since April 2000.
Santana is also a proven postseason pitcher; in his last three starts, going back to 2004, he has a 1.35 ERA. Over his career, Santana's second-half numbers are significantly better than his first-half numbers.
And why did the Yankees withdraw from talks? Because they didn't want to trade Philip Hughes.
Now, odds are good that Hughes will turn into a consistent starter. He might be a top-of-the-rotation guy. But the chances of him being as great as Santana are extremely slim.
It would have been well worth it for the Yankees to use Hughes in a package to get Santana. It should have taken Cashman 0.004 seconds to throw in Melky Cabrera, a nice player who is quite replaceable ($56,000,000/4 years). And since the Yankees' farm system is deeper than the Mets' by almost any measure, Cashman could have come up with a more attractive package than what the Mets offered.
Yeah, they would have paid Santana a lot of money — a lot more than Hughes or Kennedy would get. So what? They are the Yankees. Hank Steinbrenner washes his armpits with hundred-thousand-dollar bills. The benefits of having a very good, cheap, young player are diminished for a team with such a high payroll.
The Yankees are built to take their best shot at the World Series every single year. There is no better weapon in that quest than Johan Santana.
LOL,
Korbel
Hey Guys,
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7737068
Cashman Should Have Pulled The Trigger
by Michael Rosenberg
So if you're Brian Cashman, what is the worst part of this?
That somebody else got Johan Santana?
That the somebody else in question was the cross-city, tabloid-headline-seeking rival Mets?
That Hank Steinbrenner, who wanted Santana, will get increasingly agitated as Santana dominates the National League?
That you're in the last year of your contract?
The answer is ... none of the above. No, the worst part for Cashman is that people will claim he should have gotten Santana, and they will be right.
Cashman could have had Santana. He should have had Santana. And he might really, seriously regret this.
Johan Santana is the best pitcher in baseball. He is in his prime. He would have been well worth the price that Cashman would have had to pay, and here is why:
The Yankees, as you may have heard, spend a lot of money. Their 2007 payroll was $218.3 million. Some perspective: that is more than the combined payrolls of the Cleveland Indians, Arizona Diamondbacks and San Diego Padres. The Yankees will spend more on the left side of their infield than Florida or Tampa Bay will spend on their entire major-league rosters.
This is not another woe-is-baseball,
why-do-the-Yankees-spend-so-much-and-can't-we-have-daytime-World-Series-games rant. It's their money. They can spend it.
My point is that that kind of cash can buy all sorts of goodies. It virtually ensures that the Yankees will have one of the best lineups in baseball every single year. It means they can take a $40 million mulligan on Carl Pavano. It allows the Yankees to sign a setup man for closer-type money.
But that money cannot give the Yankees the most valuable commodity in the sport: a true ace. Not just a No. 1 starter, but an elite No. 1 starter — a guy who contends for Cy Young Awards more often than not. There are only a few of them out there, and they rarely become available before they hit 30. Santana turns 29 in March.
Santana instantly would have been the most valuable player on the Yankees roster. Yes, more valuable than Alex Rodriguez, the best position player in the game. Here is why: if Rodriguez left the Yankees, they would at least have a shot at making up for his production by improving at other positions. If A-Rod had left as a free agent, the Yankees could have signed, say, Mike Lowell, then used the leftover cash to upgrade another position. It wouldn't have been ideal, but the Yankees could still put together a playoff-quality lineup that way.
But there is no way to replace a No. 1 starter. You can't just improve the rest of your pitching staff; it's not the same.
The Yankees should know this. The key to their 1996-2000 championship stretch was ... drumroll, please ... an abundance of TRUE YANKEES! No, I'm kidding. The key was great starting pitching and dominant relief pitching.
In last year's American League Division Series, nominal Yankees ace Chien-Ming Wang gave up 12 runs in 5.7 innings over two starts. That, more than the infamous midges or Derek Jeter's struggles, is what doomed the Yankees. Two miserable starts in a four-game series are almost impossible to overcome, especially against a great team.
Santana, meanwhile, has not give up 12 runs in any two-start span since April 2000.
Santana is also a proven postseason pitcher; in his last three starts, going back to 2004, he has a 1.35 ERA. Over his career, Santana's second-half numbers are significantly better than his first-half numbers.
And why did the Yankees withdraw from talks? Because they didn't want to trade Philip Hughes.
Now, odds are good that Hughes will turn into a consistent starter. He might be a top-of-the-rotation guy. But the chances of him being as great as Santana are extremely slim.
It would have been well worth it for the Yankees to use Hughes in a package to get Santana. It should have taken Cashman 0.004 seconds to throw in Melky Cabrera, a nice player who is quite replaceable ($56,000,000/4 years). And since the Yankees' farm system is deeper than the Mets' by almost any measure, Cashman could have come up with a more attractive package than what the Mets offered.
Yeah, they would have paid Santana a lot of money — a lot more than Hughes or Kennedy would get. So what? They are the Yankees. Hank Steinbrenner washes his armpits with hundred-thousand-dollar bills. The benefits of having a very good, cheap, young player are diminished for a team with such a high payroll.
The Yankees are built to take their best shot at the World Series every single year. There is no better weapon in that quest than Johan Santana.
LOL,
Korbel
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CCF,
I agree with almost all of your analysis, although I don't know if 2008 will be as much of a down year for the Yankees as you and some others believe. It's true that they will be relying on younger starting pitchers who are untested in terms of going 30 plus starts or 200 plus innings, but Chamberlain and Hughes are both, potentially, #1 starters sooner or later. I think they will be better sooner than most people think. Kennedy is sort of a wild card. 3 very good starts last year against mediocre teams, but it looked to me like he isn't a guy who makes a lot of mistakes. I was very impressed with his control, and his general mound presence. He could end up being a Greg Maddux type, maybe not that good, but that is the kind of pitcher he is: cerebral and reliant on control and mixing of speeds and locations.
In the bullpen, there are some young power arms including Ohlendorf, Veras and the big guy they got from Detroit in the Sheffield trade (Sanchez - he is a 6'6" dude coming off an injury but is highly thought of). Also, they signed LaTroy Hawkins as the ostensible replacement for Chamberlain as set up man. Hawkins, if you look at his career since about 2002, has been a very steady bullpen performer and pitched well for Colorado last year.
I agree with almost all of your analysis, although I don't know if 2008 will be as much of a down year for the Yankees as you and some others believe. It's true that they will be relying on younger starting pitchers who are untested in terms of going 30 plus starts or 200 plus innings, but Chamberlain and Hughes are both, potentially, #1 starters sooner or later. I think they will be better sooner than most people think. Kennedy is sort of a wild card. 3 very good starts last year against mediocre teams, but it looked to me like he isn't a guy who makes a lot of mistakes. I was very impressed with his control, and his general mound presence. He could end up being a Greg Maddux type, maybe not that good, but that is the kind of pitcher he is: cerebral and reliant on control and mixing of speeds and locations.
In the bullpen, there are some young power arms including Ohlendorf, Veras and the big guy they got from Detroit in the Sheffield trade (Sanchez - he is a 6'6" dude coming off an injury but is highly thought of). Also, they signed LaTroy Hawkins as the ostensible replacement for Chamberlain as set up man. Hawkins, if you look at his career since about 2002, has been a very steady bullpen performer and pitched well for Colorado last year.
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Not quite. With full seasons from Lester, Buchholz, and Ellsbury, and with Matsuzaka and Drew having had a year to adjust to the American League, this should be a considerably better team than the current champions.chercherfemmes said:
That said, I don't expect a repeat season from Lowell, nor do I expect this team to be as healthy as were the 2007 World Champions.
I've heard it said about Tom Brady and the Heartbreakers. While they were trying to win the Lombardi Trophy to establish themselves as the best football team of all time, they also managed to fail to win the Heimlich Trophy as the biggest choke team of all time. That honor still belongs the New York Yankees of 2004.chercherfemmes said:
True, though they do no more than match up with Lester, Buchholz, and Masterson.EagerBeaver said:
The bullpen is a crapshoot. Certainly, other than the slowly declining Rivera, there's no one from last year they'd want to bring back.EagerBeaver said:
Sanchez is a ways away from coming back. He's a crap shoot. Hawkins has pitched decently, if not erratically, over the past few seasons. He's a man of fragile make-up and not likely suited for the pressure he'll find in the Bronx. The bullpen is still likely the Achilles heel of the 2008 Yankees.
Clemens Under Oath.
Hey Boys,
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7761998/Under-oath,-Clemens-denies-steroids,-HGH-use
"It was great to be able to tell them what I've been saying all along — that I've never used steroids or growth hormone," the seven-time Cy Young Award winner said.
Unfair or not...it would be compelling to see how hard Clemens earnestly asserts his innocence...until one remembers he has no choice if he wants to keep his name from being destroyed completely.
Catch 22,
Korbel
Hey Boys,
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7761998/Under-oath,-Clemens-denies-steroids,-HGH-use
"It was great to be able to tell them what I've been saying all along — that I've never used steroids or growth hormone," the seven-time Cy Young Award winner said.
Unfair or not...it would be compelling to see how hard Clemens earnestly asserts his innocence...until one remembers he has no choice if he wants to keep his name from being destroyed completely.
Catch 22,
Korbel
Bullshit
What garbage. You mean to tell me that in a sport where no one has a three game lead and "anything can happen on any given day" it's a bigger hill to climb than having to win four games in a row against the pressure of facing your arch-nemesis, the richest team in any sport by far, and the historical pressure...not to mention having to win the last two games in that den of evil known as Yanker Stadium. BULLSHIT! The Giants only needed to play better one day. The Red Sox had to do it four games in a row. And, don't you ever forget that Schilling had to pitch a day or two after experimental surgery against a lineup of stars where nearly every player was getting $10,000,000 a year, including the allegedly "greatest all-around player of all time"...A-Slob. Not to mention how the Red Sox had to find the guts to start the comeback after getting utterly blasted in game 3, 19-8. The Giants had the confidence of being only 3 points out from winning in their previous meeting just a month before. Give me a damn break!
Your credibility GONE,
Korbel
Hello chercherfemmes,chercherfemmes said:
What garbage. You mean to tell me that in a sport where no one has a three game lead and "anything can happen on any given day" it's a bigger hill to climb than having to win four games in a row against the pressure of facing your arch-nemesis, the richest team in any sport by far, and the historical pressure...not to mention having to win the last two games in that den of evil known as Yanker Stadium. BULLSHIT! The Giants only needed to play better one day. The Red Sox had to do it four games in a row. And, don't you ever forget that Schilling had to pitch a day or two after experimental surgery against a lineup of stars where nearly every player was getting $10,000,000 a year, including the allegedly "greatest all-around player of all time"...A-Slob. Not to mention how the Red Sox had to find the guts to start the comeback after getting utterly blasted in game 3, 19-8. The Giants had the confidence of being only 3 points out from winning in their previous meeting just a month before. Give me a damn break!
Your credibility GONE,
Korbel
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Utter bullshit. Your argument might hold some water if the Patriots had taken a 28-10 lead into the 4th quarter.chercherfemmes said:
If you remember, the Sox were down three games to none and down a run in the ninth inning of game four. Now that's a choke for the ages.
chercherfemmes said:Rumples, Special K & Korbel,
I have to run but will just say that the Patriots gave up 2 fourth quarter leads in the Super Bowl to the 10th best team in the league.
I will let others like Joe T finish up these arguments
Hello Chercherfemmes,
If you think Joe.t has anything but bluster you are out of your mind.
Toodles,
Korbel
You stand alone in this opinion. Before the cancer, Lester was as highly regarded as Hughes was last year. It took him a year to get back to that level, blowing away all expectations. There are two differences between Lester and Hughes at this point. Lester is a lefty; advantage Lester. Hughes has shown himself to be injury prone, missing a large chunk of 2007 with two different injuries; advantage Lester. Lester has also now shown himself to be a big game pitcher.chercherfemmes said:
John Sickels, the number one expert here, ranks Kennedy an A-, Masterson a B+. The reason for the difference is simply that Kennedy is closer to the majors. Kennedy last year was a B-. Incidentally, the Yankees have no other A level prospects, while the Sox have Jacoby Ellsbury and Jed Lowrie, both A-.chercherfemmes said:
You're nothing short of delirious here. Beckett is an ace; Chamberlain is a prospect. Chamberlain hasn't even shown yet that he has the stuff to start. Remember, he's been successful as a reliever, throwing infrequently and rarely throwing over 20 pitches. He has yet to show a third pitch. Horne, by the way, is no more highly rated than Michael Bowden.chercherfemmes said:
A convenient omission.chercherfemmes said:
Where he'll join Dontrelle Willis and Johan Santana?chercherfemmes said:
I think this is less true than the fact that Torre's history of burning out his relievers long predated his tenure with the Yankees.chercherfemmes said:
If I were a Yankee fan, I'd be utterly terrified at the prospect of this collection of stiffs, has-beens, never weres, and second rate prospects heading up my bullpen. This is a positively scary bunch.chercherfemmes said:
If I remember correctly this is the guy that Cashman demanded from the Tigers in order to complete the Sheffield trade, some site's have him listed at 6'6 and 270lbs, it will be interesting to see how he turns out.EagerBeaver said:
Chercherfemmes- Who is "Wong" my good man, I assume that you are referring to Wang unless the Yankees have another prospect that I am not aware of.
Well boys the baseball season is around the corner and fantasy leagues are starting to pop up everywhere, I just joined one at www.mlb.com today, I have not picked my team yet and wait until you see my team name, it fits me just perfectly I think, you can set up your own private league or join the open league.
, you can set up your own private league or join the open league.That's the one. The Yankees, by the way, were aware at the time that he would likely need Tommy John surgery, which was performed on him last summer.Joe.t said:
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