The language laws & The bilingual and multilingual regions

[Techman]

Unique? How about backwards? In most of Europe it is normal for people to be not only bilingual, but multilingual. Here in Quebec, there are laws to try and keep the population UNILINGUAL French and being bilingual is actually discouraged. The rest of the world is knocking down borders and other barriers but here we want to make new borders and build walls. Yeah, we're unique all right.

 

[voyageur]

Unique? How about backwards? In most of Europe it is normal for people to be not only bilingual, but multilingual. Here in Quebec, there are laws to try and keep the population UNILINGUAL French and being bilingual is actually discouraged. The rest of the world is knocking down borders and other barriers but here we want to make new borders and build walls. Yeah, we're unique all right.

Techman, you're right to a point. With certain politicians and journalists, yes, there certainly appears to be a movement designed to "keep 'em on the farm". But in my everyday meetings with co workers, friends and acquaintances, language is that last thing people get worked up about. In almost every conversation I have, talk slips back and forth between French and English... sometimes in the same sentence. I can't count the number of times I've heard conversations where one person says something in one language, somebody else answers in the other, and everybody understands. Yes, there might be accents and wrong tenses and genders on occasion, but nobody gets upset with that. Now, this is Montreal. I wouldn't expect this to be the case in Chicoutimi or Sept Iles, but even there I don't think the language issue is the biggest preoccupation.

We unfortunately have a class of politicians, journalists, academics and self professed intelligentsia here in Quebec who persist in playing this card. And unfortunately, I don't see that changing on Tuesday.

 

[Kasey Jones]

Unique? How about backwards? In most of Europe it is normal for people to be not only bilingual, but multilingual. Here in Quebec, there are laws to try and keep the population UNILINGUAL French and being bilingual is actually discouraged. The rest of the world is knocking down borders and other barriers but here we want to make new borders and build walls. Yeah, we're unique all right.

This is not true... Most people in France speak only French. Most people in Germany speak only German. Most in Italy speak only Italian. The only countries in Europe where a significant percentage of their population speak more than 1 language are Switzerland and Holland. Travel outside of Paris and see how far you get speaking English. Travel anywhere in Germany and try to speak only English... You will have about as much success as speaking anything but French outside of Montreal. Montreal is one of the few truly bilingual cities in the world.

 

[Techman]

You're comparing countries to the CITY of Montreal. Most people in Quebec outside of Montreal only speak French. Most people in the regions of Quebec have never even seen someone who wasn't white and French speaking except in a movie or on tv. Does that reflect Montreal? Not hardly. Montreal is a cosmopolitan city, yes. But it is hardly unique in the world. And if the PQ had their way, no language other than French would ever be heard on our streets.

 

[TheDon]

It's unfortunate that the politicians always bring up the language debate and put the population against one another whether it be french or english.

It's very discouraging and a diservice to the quebec people that the government is trying to keep them uniligual french. By doing so the quebec people miss alot of orportunities to further themselves because they cannot compete for better jobs because they don't speak english, they can't travel outside of quebec because they can't communicate in english.

By forcing new immigrants into french schools they only harm their own people in the work force. As the so called true quebecers will only be able to speak french, the immigrant worker that was forced into french school will sometimes end up being able to speak 3 languages (french, english, and their mother tongue).

So the unilingual french quebecer will end up bitching and complaining........WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!!!!.......

 

[Kasey Jones]

You're comparing countries to the CITY of Montreal. Most people in Quebec outside of Montreal only speak French. Most people in the regions of Quebec have never even seen someone who wasn't white and French speaking except in a movie or on tv. Does that reflect Montreal? Not hardly. Montreal is a cosmopolitan city, yes. But it is hardly unique in the world. And if the PQ had their way, no language other than French would ever be heard on our streets.

That is pretty much exactly what I said, if you actually read what I wrote... You said it is common for people to be multi-lingual in Europe. this is simply not true.

Your view that Europe is a continent of bilingual people where walls are being torn down is bs... Outside of very few cities in Europe do people actually speak more than 1 language. In fact, i bet you can't even name more than 3 cities in Europe that are more multi-lingual than Montreal.

Despite the politics, Montreal is more truly multilingual than it has ever been. There used to be a large Anglo community surrounded by a Franco community. Now, there are more bilingual people than there ever were. The government can legislate whatever the f@ck it wants, this reality will not change...

 

[Techman]

The government can legislate whatever the f@ck it wants, this reality will not change...

No, the reality of Montreal will not change which is why I keep repeating that these laws are totally useless and do nothing more than cost this city and this province billions of dollars in revenue.

As for bilingual and multilingual regions, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_multilingual_countries_and_regions

Yup. We're unique.

 

[Kasey Jones]

Well, I have no idea what point you are trying to make anymore... I responded to this...

Unique? How about backwards? In most of Europe it is normal for people to be not only bilingual, but multilingual.

this is simply not true...

The rest of the world is knocking down borders and other barriers but here we want to make new borders and build walls.

This is simply not true either... Check out European immigration policy, or the 3000 mile border fence between the US and Mexico...

I don't support the language laws here either, but to say that it is worse here than in Europe or many other parts of the world is simply wrong.

 

[Techman]

I don't support the language laws here either, but to say that it is worse here than in Europe or many other parts of the world is simply wrong.

Find me ONE place in the rest of the world that has language laws anywhere close to ours. In fact, find me one place in the world that has language laws. Then tell me again how it's not so bad here.

You are right about my first statement you quoted...I should have said most major cities in Europe that are comparable to Montreal in importance are more multilingual than we are here. And they don't have any language laws.

 

[Kasey Jones]

Montreal does have this bilingual aspect to it, but many cities have similar characteristics. Barcelona shares Catalan and Castillian as everyday languages. In many neighbourhoods of Houston, Los Angeles, Corpus Christi, El Paso, Miami and a few other cities in the USA people interchange Spanish and English, often in mid-sentence. In Brussels, French and Flemish co-exist, along with English, the working language of the EU. Both Russian and Ukrainian are spoken in the streets of Kiev. In Munich and Nuremburg many still speak Bayerisch along with the standard Hoch-Deutsch. French and Arabic are used interchangeably in Casablanca and Rabat. Hebrew, English and Arabic are spoken in Tel Aviv, not to mention Russian. French, English and a local creole (a dialect of French with Spanish and English mixed in) coexist in Port Louis, Mauritius. There are dozens more, if not hundreds, of other examples.

Barcelona is another city that I would say is truly bilingual along with Brussels.
I haven't traveled extensively in the south (San Antonio mostly), but given the rise of the right-wing/anti-hispanic politics of these states, I don't think we look too bad in comparison (ie: SB1070 in Arizona). I have never visited the Ukraine, Tel Aviv or Mauritius, so I can't comment. I have traveled extensively in Germany, and it is difficult to get by without speaking the language. The vast majority do not speak anything but German. My experiences of Africa are mostly limited to Algiers and Senegal. Despite their French colonial heritage lets just say that I wouldn't wander too far into the hinterlands speaking French too loudly...

I still think this place is pretty special...

 

[Kasey Jones]

Find me ONE place in the rest of the world that has language laws anywhere close to ours. In fact, find me one place in the world that has language laws. Then tell me again how it's not so bad here.

You are right about my first statement you quoted...I should have said most major cities in Europe that are comparable to Montreal in importance are more multilingual than we are here. And they don't have any language laws.

Dude, you are hallucinating...

go be Turkish in Germany, or Mexican in Arizona, or Algerian in France, or Basque in Spain, or Tutsi in Rwanda, or Chechen in Russia, or Armenian in Turkey etc and tell me how bad we have it here.

Again, I don't support the language laws here either, but to act like we are some kind of persecuted minority and things are so horrible here for anglos is laughable...

oh, and some other countries that have or have had language laws:
Belgium
Croatia
Finland
France
Germany
Hungary
Latvia
Poland
Slovakia
Spain
Former Soviet Union
United Kingdom

http://www.tlfq.ulaval.ca/axl/monde/index_politique-lng.htm

 

[b_cup_lover]

Here we go again!

Whenever you mention the coexistence of French and English ( and soon Mandarin, Punjabi.etc. ) Our good old Techman comes haunting us with Bill 101, the separatist et al.

Joelcairo,ins’t very far I’m sure and Big Dady Cool and Oliver Kloseoff may do a comeback.

Techman is a constant shit disturber when it comes to language issues and as I may have said before in some previous flaming posts , get over it man and if you don’t like the situation here in Quebec then leave.

And Techman don’t even bother replying to this I won’t add to it.

Now back to Maria’s comment :wave: , aside the fact that the Mayor is a living dead, the potholes, the constant roadwork and detours, and the cyclist and pedestrians not respecting the red lights, yes Montreal is a wonderful city to be in.

Have a nice day!

 

[Doc Holliday]

Here we go again!

Whenever you mention the coexistence of French and English ( and soon Mandarin, Punjabi.etc. ) Our good old Techman comes haunting us with Bill 101, the separatist et al.

Techman is a constant shit disturber when it comes to language issues and as I may have said before in some previous flaming posts , get over it man and if you don’t like the situation here in Quebec then leave.

And Techman don’t even bother replying to this I won’t add to it.

I respect the fact that you don't see eye-to-eye with Techman, but is this a reason to insult him & not allow him to have an opinion? Personally, i welcome all kinds of different opinions on various topics i may or may not know about. That's how we educate ourselves and make us more aware of what's going on out there and around us.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

I respect the fact that you don't see eye-to-eye with Techman, but is this a reason to insult him & not allow him to have an opinion?

And I ask if there is any reason for Techman to pollute Maria's thread saluting the wonderful city in which we live with his incessant venom? Thanks for starting this thread, Maria. This is, indeed, a magic island, from Ste. Anne-de-Bellvue and Senneville to Pointe aux Trembles and Riviere-des-Prairies.

Of what other city, anywhere in the world but Montreal, can it truly be said that the sun rises in the south?

 

[Red Paul]

Seriously, i applaud Maria's efforts for starting this thread ... However, it was bound to attract opinons, and this is why it may turn out to be a good, enjoyable thread to read and follow.

People expressing different opinions in threads is what makes the threads more interesting to read.

True, but ... there's such a thing as responding to a post in the spirit in which it was written. I don't say Techman is wrong or right in his political views. I don't say his tone or arguments would be out of place in a thread arguing over language rights. But when Maria wrote the kickoff post, it didn't look like this would be that kind of thread. Now it is, and it's kind of hard to see how the thread can change back.

 

[Merlot]

Find me ONE place in the rest of the world that has language laws anywhere close to ours. In fact, find me one place in the world that has language laws. Then tell me again how it's not so bad here.

Okay,

I'm glad to see the mods cleaned this issue out of Maria's thread before I posted. I thought it was totally against the subject of her thread, which seemed to be intended to celebrate Montreal, not criticise it again over old repetitive wounds.

You want one specifically, here you go:

The Ukraine has severe laws trying to eliminate Russian.

http://www.russkiymir.ru/russkiymir/en/news/common/news7117.html

Slovakia has language laws that set fines against other languages. Hungarians there have accused the Slovaks of criminalizing their language.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_law_of_Slovakia

German discrimination.

http://rt.com/news/germany-ethnic-enclaves-immigration/

Belgians battle over French versus Dutch versus English.

http://www.usefoundation.org/view/116

Arabic oppressed in Israeli controlled areas and schools.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-editio...rks-protests-1.333924?localLinksEnabled=false

There are 177 countries with official language laws. Many with 1 official language, many with more than 1.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_official_languages_by_state

More than half of the U.S. states have official English laws, others are considering it, and there is a strong English Only Movement caused largely by resentment over a large number of Spanish immigrants...legal and illegal.

http://www.us-english.org/view/13

English Only Movemnet in the U.S.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English-only_movement

Enough???

Really, wherever there is a dominate nationality with significant minorities this is an issue fairly often resulting in oppression to various degrees. It certainly is not unique to Quebec or Montreal. The positive and negative sides of human nature are a constant anywhere.

Techman, extremist Separatists are oppressive xenophobes. But the existence of this kind of element does not make Montreal unique. This element exists everywhere in varying size and degrees. Oppressive language laws and/or battles over language and culture exist in many places in the world because human nature is faulted with fears, rational and irrational.

BTW - Try looking up Rwanda, Nigeria, and many other places where one group has tied to kill off another.

Now it is, and it's kind of hard to see how the thread can change back.

Fortunately the mods settled this. No one had to turn the obvious positive spirit of that thread into another culture battle when other threads are available.
:thumb:

Merlot

 

[protagoras]

In Nordic country (especially Danmark and Sweden) most people speak English besides their native language. Even inside these countries they are other languages that are spoken, such as Faroese and German in the Jutland.

Alyssa Roze, language may be in issue in Germany if you are an Ausländer or a Gastarbeiter. German from Turkish descent are more than often ostracized.

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/beruf-ch...sprache-hat-ein-miserables-image-1300147.html

 

[Techman]

Wow, Merlot, once again you totally miss the point. Do you even read the post you reply to or what you post? Here's an escerpt from your link on Belgium...a country that actually has THREE official languages...

In Belgium multilingualism is very common. Since the 1998 Decree, which
made learning of the second language (either Dutch or English)
obligatory from the 5th grade in Wallonie, Dutch has been neglected
because schools could decide which language they will choose and usually
they preferred English.

They actually made learning a second language OBLIGATORY! Great example. As for most of your other comparisons, well I really don't consider the former Eastern Bloc countries or Uganda to be on a par with Canada in any way you could possibly think of. I'm also not talking about countries having official languages. I would think that is a normal state of affairs for a country to have an official language. The thing is do they ban other languages? I'm asking for someone to post examples of LAWS where other languages are prohibited from being used in private business or posted on signs. It would also be nice if those examples are from free societies, not countries like Iran or Saudi Arabia where human rights are less than an afterthought, or countries that lived under the yoke of the former Soviet Union and understandably are now in the position of re-establishing their own identity as a country.

Find me a country in Europe that has laws banning the use of other languages. Find me a state in the US that has laws banning the use of other languages on signs and in businesses. Got it? That clear enough for you?

As for polluting Maria's thread...well if someone starts a thread about how people can chat in multiple languages in Montreal as an example of how great this city is, they have to expect someone to disagree with that point and point out the obvious. Tell me how beautiful the city is, how great our restaurants are and how beautiful our women are and i'll have no disagreement with you. Tell me that it's because there are a lot of cultures here in the middle of an election campaign where political parties are claiming that Montreal is not French enough, and how English has to be repressed with stricter language laws and I'll call bullshit every time.

 

[hormone]

Well, many countries --esp in Europe-- have no problem with multi-lingualism, simply because it does not threaten the survival of their own "native" (or official... or most widely spoken... or call it as you want) language. Interestingly, notwhithstanding the multi-language laws some countries have, it is common for people of these countries (here Belgium is a great example... Switzerland is another...) to look down/ agressively on people who speak the "other" national language. Ever tried to speak French to a Flemmish person?? Far from obvious... Same in Switzerland: not always easy to speak French to a Swiss-German or German to a "Romand"...
It's pretty simple: an immigrant from _____ (name your country) to Germany/ France/ Spain/ Japan etc has to learn German/ French/ Spanish/ Japanese/ etc to survive. In Montréal... not so. People can live on without much or any French. You may think it's ok. I don't. I guess you're a fan of natural selection, Techman. That's ok. I am not, I am a fan of preservation of particularities of this Québécois nation--even if my roots are deeply anglo... You can call me bullshit, it's only your opinion (shared by some people). That's ok, 'cause I know it's also only my opinion (shared by others too).

 

[Techman]

The survival of the French language in Quebec is not in danger. It has never been in danger and as long as the French people of Quebec continue to have families and teach the language to their children, it will never be in danger. It is sad to see that French is promoted in the rest of Canada as a benefit and an advantage to learn while here in Quebec, other languages are looked at as being a threat.

You know the old saying that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar? Well that works with most other things too. Give people an incentive to learn the French language, promote it as being an advantage instead of taking this fear mongering approach that it is in danger and you might well find people more willing to embrace it. When you try to ram something down someone's throat, the inevitable response is that they will gag on it and try to throw it back up.

http://ccl-cca.ca/pdfs/LessonsInLearning/May-17-07-French-immersion.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_in_Canada