The Official MERB 2011-2012 NHL Hockey Thread

[Doc Holliday]

In the 1983 draft, # 1 was Brian Lawton (selected by Minnesota), # 2 was Sylvain Turgeon (Hartford), # 3 was Patty Lafontaine (Islanders), which paved the way for...drum roll please....Detroit to STEAL Steve Yzerman (!!!!!!!) as the 4th overall pick!
Now, Lawton and Turgeon were adequate but certainly not great. Lafontaine had a Hall of Fame career but it ended too soon and he missed too many games (again largely due to bad luck injuries)...and as good as Lafontaine was he was no Stevie Y (then again who is?)!

Lafontaine's career-ending injuries were concussion-related, not because of a bad back. I'd still easily pick him over Yzerman. Who could have predicted the health issues? No one. The Brian Lawton pick was a disastrous one for the Stars & who knows if they would have moved to Dallas had they chosen Lafontaine or Yzerman instead?

Sylvain Turgeon was a very good player early in his career with the Hartford Whalers. But injuries also took their toll & he was never the same player by the time he was traded to NJ & then wound up with Mtl.

But again, Pat Lafontaine played great when he was able to play, and the Isles were lucky to be able to draft him. He was the favorite to be picked #1 overall at the time, and wasn't because the Stars had Brian Lawton on their sights from day 1. Wasn't there some type of trade involved in order to have Dallas pick #1? Needless to say, Pat Lafontaine might just have been one of the NHL all-time best had he not had all of those unfortunate injuries.

 

[joelcairo]

Lafontaine's career-ending injuries were concussion-related, not because of a bad back.

Yes I know - I wrote "bad luck" not "bad back".

 

[Doc Holliday]

Yes I know - I wrote "bad luck" not "bad back".

I stand corrected.

 

[joelcairo]

The Yzerman vs. Lafontaine Debate

Some facts:

Seasons played: SY 22 PL 15
Regular Season Games: SY 1755 PL 1013
Regular Season Goals: SY 692 PL 468
Regular Season Assists: SY 1063 PL 545
Regular Season Points: SY 1755 PL 1013

Playoff Games: SY 196 PL 69
Playoff Goals: SY 70 PL 26
Playoff Assists: SY 115 PL 36
Playoff Points: SY 185 PL 62

Stanley Cup Wins: SY 3 PL 0

Individual Awards: SY Ted Lindsay Award 1989 (MVP as selected by fellow NHL players)
Conn Smythe 1998 (Playoff MVP)
Frank J. Selke Award 2000 (Best defensive forward)
Bill Masterton Memorial Trophy 2003 (Perseverance and dedication)
Lester Patrick Trophy 2006 (Service to hockey in the USA)

PL Bill Masterton Memorial Trophy 1995

The only area where PL has an edge on SY is in career regular season points per game average. SY's is 1.159 and PL's is 1.171. Pretty damn close - but then you can take into account that as a player ages and plays more games his PPG drops (as it did for even Gretzky and Lemieux). SY played far more games than PL and to a far older age - his PPG after the same number of games in his career as PL ended up with was HIGHER than PL's. Also it must be remembered that SY was a COMPLETE player (remember he won the Seke as best DEFENSIVE forward!) and in becoming a complete player placed much less emphasis on point production. In spite of this SY had FIVE seasons with 50 or more goals including 2 with over 60. PL had only 1 50+ season and no 60s. SY had 6 100+ point seasons. PL had 2. Oh and by the way Stevie's 6 100 point seasons were consecutive - Wayne Gretzky is the only player who ever had more (Gretzky had 13 consecutive 100 point seasons).

SY's best season: 65 goals, 90 assists, 155 points in 80 games. PL's best season: 53 goals, 95 assists, 148 points in 84 games.

AND... in their first year in the league SY was runner-up to Tom Barrasso for the Calder - so for THAT season at least he was considered better than PL. When PL joined the Islanders in his rookie year they had won 4 consecytive Cups and still had a great team with Bossy, Trottier, Smith, Potvin, etc. but they lost to the Oilers in PL's rookie year, never challenged again, and became a league doormat. Meanwhile as we all know, the team that had been known as the "dead things" after years of futility began to re-emerge and ended up as the best team in hockey for the last couple of decades - not entirely due to SY, but he played a HUGE role and - unlike PL - also made everyone around him better.

Comparison time, folks.

 

[Doc Holliday]

The Yzerman vs. Lafontaine Debate

I'd still pick Pat Lafontaine over Steve Yzerman. Yzerman gets the edge in stats because he was much healthier than Lafontaine ever was throughout their careers. Lafontaine could have picked up more points had he been healthy while he played.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

The fact is Rumples understands stats and knows how to identify key elements and trends. Yes, other elements such as player health, team attitude, team leadership, sentimentality versus logical decisions can throw off predicted statistical outcomes. But statistically in this case, because of the differences in the number of games played between teams the quality ratio of wins was important in showing predictable trends which have now become FACT. The trend in the average quality of points per game, and importantly the scoring differential average between teams and opponents pointed to the outcome in the current overall points standing. I.E. the Defacto Standings or whatever it might be labeled...were relevant.

Oh, Merlot, Doc knows full well that what I'm saying makes perfect sense. The problem is that it doesn't conform to his world view; he'd prefer to believe that what is, isn't and what isn't is. Just as long as it makes the Leafs look like they're doing better than they really are.

It's in the dictionary, under: delusion. As Casey Stengel used to say, "You could look it up."

 

[daydreamer41]

Oh, gee. Defacto, deschmacto. It really doesn't mean a hill a beans. Everyone plays the same number of games at the end. The team with the most points at the end of the season when each team has played 82 games (I believe it is 82 games) wins their respective conference. The next 7 teams in each conference get a playoff bid and then they play the playoffs. I have never seen a defacto column in the NHL standings. I first became aware of the NHL in 1974.

Even if a team finishes in first place in their Conference, it certainly does not guarantee them a Stanely Cup. Boston did not finish first in their conference last year, but did finish first in the Division. The Pittsburgh Penquins finished second in their division in the 2008-2009 season and won the Stanley Cup. So this micro-managing of the division race is a little too much.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Perfectly true. Points determine standings. In the battle between Toronto and Boston the Leafs have lost the opportunity for 8 points, while the Bruins have gained the same. That's been decisive in the standings where the Bruins who were last or near last are now 2nd and the Leafs are now 6th......Still Doc has made some good points.

I totally agree with Merlot. :thumb:

 

[Doc Holliday]

Oh, gee. Defacto, deschmacto. It really doesn't mean a hill a beans. Everyone plays the same number of games at the end. The team with the most points at the end of the season when each team has played 82 games (I believe it is 82 games) wins their respective conference. The next 7 teams in each conference get a playoff bid and then they play the playoffs. I have never seen a defacto column in the NHL standings. I first became aware of the NHL in 1974.

Even if a team finishes in first place in their Conference, it certainly does not guarantee them a Stanely Cup. Boston did not finish first in their conference last year, but did finish first in the Conference. The Pittsburgh Penquins finished second in their division in the 2008-2009 season and won the Stanley Cup. So this micro-managing of the division race is a little too much.

I totally agree with Daydreamer. :thumb:

 

[Doc Holliday]

the Leafs look like they're doing better....

I have to agree with our resident hockey expert. The Leafs indeed look like they're doing better. :thumb:

 

[Doc Holliday]

Does Carlyle speak french? As a Leafs fan i do not want to see RC go to the habs as he is a much miuch better coach than Martin, at least for the players Mtl has, meaning if Martin would open them up and let them play a offensive game, they would be more fun to watch as a team and probably have more success, and Carlyle would do this for sure with the Canadiens. You have speed and skill up front, why not open things up and let them skate and use those 2 assets? The game has passed ole J Martin by.

Once again, you are entirely correct. :thumb:

Randy Carlisle does not speak any french, by the way, which pretty much puts an end to his chances of ever coaching the habs. And this is where the problem lies. For decades, the habs ruled when they had an english-speaking coach & an english-speaking GM: Toe Blake, Scotty Bowman, Dick Irvin Sr., Sam Pollock, Irving Grundman, etc.

Let's face it: the only reason Jacques Martin is the habs coach is because french is his first language. Some may say that this may be the same case for Pierre Gauthier. If Jacques Martin's name were Jack Martin (english pronounciation), he wouldn't have had a chance in hell to be named the team's coach. Not a chance!

Martin & Gauthier both destroyed the Ottawa Senators after they made their run at the Cup. Martin later did the same thing in Florida until they fired his ass. And now, they're both going to destroy the habs. Why do you think Kirk Muller left the organization after last season? He knew full well that he'd never get a chance to coach the habs since his first language wasn't french.

As for your comment in regards to the game passing by Jacques Martin, i have to slightly disagree with this statement. Jacques Martin coaches like he's always coached: defense first. Neutral zone trap hockey. He's coaching exactly the same way he coached previously with Ottawa, St-Louis, Florida, etc. Boring, defence-first, neutral zone trap hockey. But can you blame him? Look at what he's been given to try to win with. Look at his defence. Imagine where that team would be if it weren't for the great goaltending of Carey Price?

 

[lgna69xxx]

Did rumps really give the Leafs a compliment? Well, it is the holiday season afterall :lol: good job rumps!

What you do not understand tho, is, Gary Bettman (ever heard of him?) is in charge and whether love him or hate him, he has took the NHL to a better place than it used to be financially speaking and if he is fine with the scoring system, it is not about to change, so save your breath, it is what it is and it works out in the end, just like Daydreamer said.

There are sooooooooooooooo many changes in the standings these days, one good week by a team in the top 8 or a bad week by another team lower, and the positions change easily and ofton, of course depending if those said teams are all within a few points of one another, and so what, the only thing that REALLY matters is the standings in April.

I have to agree with our resident hockey expert. The Leafs indeed look like they're doing better. :thumb:

 

[daydreamer41]

I am so glad so many people are so agreeable here. It is so worth reading everyone's opinions and agreeing with everybody. eace: Peace on Merb and good will to all merbites.

 

[lgna69xxx]

Peace, Love, and SOUL!..........oops, wrong saying........ Peace, Love, and the Coolest game on earth, HOCKEY!

eace: :thumb:

I am so glad so many people are so agreeable here. It is so worth reading everyone's opinions and agreeing with everybody. eace: Peace on Merb and good will to all merbites.

 

[Special K]

I'd take the likes of Zdeno Chara, Todd Marchant, Patrice Bergeron & Milan Lucic on my team anytime.

You can have Todd Marchant but we'll keep Brad Marchand! Lol. What a great player this kid is!!!

 

[Doc Holliday]

You can have Todd Marchant but we'll keep Brad Marchand! Lol. What a great player this kid is!!!

I stand corrected! lol

And indeed, he is a very good player.....he can score, skate, reliable in his own zone, he can take a check & won't hesitate to drop his gloves when needed....and best of all, he's got a face only a mother could love! Any team would love having him on their team!

 

[evillethings]

leafs fans are still delusional but at least for now, they have some temporary clarity. good for you buds fans believing in ur roster and wilson. still don't believe wilson will last the year... tho it'd take a major slide and reimer getting knocked out for the season for that to happen now. [ sigh ]

 

[Doc Holliday]

Pens having blue line issues

(ESPN) Unfortunately for the Pittsburgh Penguins, they've been in this position before. They finally have Sidney Crosby back in the lineup from his concussion woes. Tyler Kennedy is playing again as well. But now Zbynek Michalek and Kris Letang have been diagnosed with concussions. This team just can't ever seem to stay at full strength.

Losing Michalek and Letang is a major hit to Dan Bylsma's blue line and, obviously, both are out indefinitely. At 16-7-4, the Penguins currently lead the Eastern Conference and they boast some of the best forwards in hockey, so they have a buffer to work with here. But losing two defensemen -- one a shut down rearguard and one a major offensive threat -- could hinder the club if either are out for an extended period of time.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Bowman on how to handle Ovechkin

(ESPN) So what should new Washington Capitals coach Dale Hunter to do get Alex Ovechkin back on track? Well the Edmonton Journal's Jim Matheson talked to Hall of Fame coach Scotty Bowman -- who handled his share of stars in his day -- and Bowman said, "They (stars) have to believe you're going to make them succeed by making sure they're on the power play -- or, say the other team is matching up against your superstar, then you have to get your superstar away from that by putting him on different lines, moving him from right to left wing. And, also, you have to make sure he's got good linemates on the ice with him."

If this is how Hunter handles Ovechkin, we may see some major pampering going on -- at least until Ovi gets back on track.

 

[lgna69xxx]

Really??? for thinking we have a playoff team after all the great moves Burke has made to improve the team and build depth in the minors the last three seasons? Sorry, but it takes time when you have been depleted by previous management and finally the ship is going in the right direction and if you believe otherwise, you do not understand the game of hockey. Nothing delusional about that, but then again haters gonna hate, lol...... and I LOVE IT!

In life, always try to take the positives out of a negative situation and that's what the Leafs have done in those 4 losses to the bRuins. When you play against a better team and so ofton in the season already, it makes you a better team and shows how much better you are against weaker teams.

PS. Wilson is the perfect coach for this team, learn to live with and and love it my friend, "it A'int a gonna change" nor should it!

leafs fans are still delusional but at least for now, they have some temporary clarity. good for you buds fans believing in ur roster and wilson. still don't believe wilson will last the year... tho it'd take a major slide and reimer getting knocked out for the season for that to happen now. [ sigh ]