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The Official MERB 2011-2012 NHL Hockey Thread

lgna69xxx

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You make some good points in the post above. It really is a tough call, but i do not think we will see fighting banned completely in our lifetime. The dirty hitting tho, i am all for Shanahan giving out more appropriate suspensions and fines. (and no habs fans, i am not talking about the Chara/Pacioretty incident, that was simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time for Pacioretty)
Like i said, i'm on the fence when it comes to fighting in the game of hockey. I love a good fight as much as anyone else. But is it morally right to keep it in the game?
 

Doc Holliday

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i do not think we will see fighting banned completely in our lifetime.

I disagree. The day a player dies due to the result of a fight, and it will happen, will be the day fighting is no more in the NHL. We've seen what happened to Don Sanderson & Bill Mastertron. Had Sanderson's tragedy occurred in the NHL, we might not even be having this debate today. Had Masterton died due to his head hitting the ice during a fight instead of a center-ice collision, who knows if fighting would have been part of the game afterwards.
 

lgna69xxx

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Maybe but i doubt it.... I remember in boxing when Ray boom boom Mancini had a fight and his opponent died 5 days later, and boxing is still around. MMA is also a much more dangerous sport with potential for injury and worse, and it isnt going away anytime soon. Maybe the rules somehow can be modified to limit fighting but to take it completely out of the NHL, i dont see it, it's always possible, but i just do not see it.


I disagree. The day a player dies due to the result of a fight, and it will happen, will be the day fighting is no more in the NHL. We've seen what happened to Don Sanderson & Bill Mastertron. Had Sanderson's tragedy occurred in the NHL, we might not even be having this debate today. Had Masterton died due to his head hitting the ice during a fight instead of a center-ice collision, who knows if fighting would have been part of the game afterwards.
 

Doc Holliday

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Maybe but i doubt it.... I remember in boxing when Ray boom boom Mancini had a fight and his opponent died 5 days later, and boxing is still around. MMA is also a much more dangerous sport with potential for injury and worse, and it isnt going away anytime soon. Maybe the rules somehow can be modified to limit fighting but to take it completely out of the NHL, i dont see it, it's always possible, but i just do not see it.

But you're comparing apples with oranges. Fighting in hockey is nothing but a sideshow, while in boxing & MMA it's what the 'sport' is all about. The only time you see fighting in hockey is in the NHL, minor & junior leagues. No fighting is allowed in the world championships, Olympics & international hockey.

What i'm saying is that you don't need fighting for hockey to be played, or survive. A point could be made that the game is actually much better without it. You don't have the goons who can barely skate who can't score in the world championships, Olympics & international hockey. You have REAL hockey players. Not the John Kordics, Jay Millers, Dave Browns, Dave Schultz, George Laracques, Colton Orrs & company. At least Tie Domi could skate & score the odd goal once in a while. Same with Bobby Probert.

What scares me the most in hockey is the fact many players have fallen down & hit their heads on the ice during a fight. This is what killed Donald Sanderson. Usually their helmets have been removed. This is what caused Cole Orr's concussion last year....well, i should say the one that ended his season. He suffered two other concussions in other fights last year, mostly that one against that big Penguins defenceman (England) that knocked him out for a few seconds. That was nasty!

Finally, you see former goons who call for a ban against fighting, versus the other goons like Domi & Laracque who say that fighting has its place in hockey. Domi (whom i used to refer to as 'Tie Dummy' when he played with the Rangers & Jets) actually blasted the former players who were against fighting since it would take away jobs. Well, what about the jobs that have been taken away from kids with real skills...who can score & skate? Yet, their spots are taken away from them on NHL teams by goons who play less than 5 minutes a game who are simply there for fisticuffs & intimidation purposes. It's not right.

To conclude, i for one hopes that fighting will remain in the game, mostly because the NHL season is way too long & half the players on the teams have no business playing in the NHL earning millions. The problem is, there are too many teams in the NHL & there are way too many games. So with the product & the level of talent diluted, you need to do something in order to maintain fan interest, especially in the States where hockey is often less popular than bowling. The end result? Fighting. It'll be here to stay as long as you have the Brian Burkes & Paul Holmgrems leading the way.

Does a team really need a goon? I used to think so. But i've changed my position last season after watching the Montreal Canadiens nearly make it to the NHL finals. My money would have been on them to win the Cup had they gone past the remarkable Tim Thomas and the mighty Boston Bruins. The Canadiens nearly won the whole thing without a single 'goon' on their team, and a case could be made that the feat was achieved by the Bruins. Did the Bruins really have any goons on their team? If your a habs fan, you'd say yes & right away name Zdeno Chara & Milan Lucic....both long-time habs nemesis.....but those players have plenty of skill & talent. They made the NHL because of their skills & talent....not because of their prowess with fists. So my conclusion is that the Bruins won the Cup without having a goon on the team. Was there any fighting in any of their series? I can't recall one single fight.

If the NHL were really serious about taking out fighting out of the game, they'd start doing it by imposing tougher penalties for players who want to fight. I'd start with an automatic 10-minute misconduct for anyone who fights. If the fight is orchestrated....meaning two goons are fighting just for the sake of fighting....throw them out of a game. I'm getting sick n' tired of play stoppages in order to watch two goons go at it just for show. The games are already way too long as is.....sure, let the goons fight, but kick them out of the game once they've done their little parade in front of the fans in attendance. Once this happens, i doubt teams will want to keep a spot or two in the lineup for such no-talent players.
 

lgna69xxx

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I'm talking about the health issue or danger, not about whether it is a sideshow or not. I was showing that it is no more dangerous than a sport like MMA where they use no gloves to fight unlike boxing, which IMO is still a very dangerous sport, long term. (Boxing) And fighting can change the tempo of a game... For example, if the habs are playing the Sabres and lets say big Mike Cammallerri wants to change the flow, so he picks a fight with a sabre, and lets make this realistic, he goes over to Nathan Gerbe and gives him a butt whooping, that would get the habs bench pumped up and could turn the game around in their favor. LOL, ok you get my point but fighting is fighting where ever you are and under any circumstance... a bar fight, a fight over a girl, a fight in the stands between fans, a boxing match, a hockey fight, a baseball , errrr, well "slapping match", etc....

Like i said, when a fight breaks out at a NHL game, EVERYONE rises to their feet and cheers, thats not something that will easily be eliminated from the game, and if it does, as a NHL fan, i will support it, but i hope it never happens, thats all. It is tradition and if you go messing with tradition much, it ruins things. If God forbid someone were to die on the ice, i do not think fighting would be banned on the spot, it at all. People get into fights everyday, 1000's of them per day across the world and the % of people dying from them i would assume is miniscule., a black eye here and there, a few fat lips and some bruised ego's but very few die from a fist fight as a whole. Where you have a problem long term is when a person fights on a regular basis, taking blows to the head on a regular basis, so maybe limiting the amount of fights a player gets into would be a good start.

I think the NHL would make it a priority to help these so called thugs emotionally with some sort of treatment, whether that be a shrink (which they probably already do), or a limit on how many fights per week they can get into w/o getting suspended, before they all out ban fighting. Maybe a rule that if a player gets in more than 2 or 3 fights in a 7 game period and he is suspended for 3 games or something, or is allowed so many fights based on so many minutes played, I dont know, its just a thought. The one thing i can honestly see happening is a new rule that players have to leave their helmets on at all times they are on the ice, that is the first step to more safety because what do you see in a majority of fights when the 2 combatants square off? Yup, they take their helmets off.

But you're comparing apples with oranges. Fighting in hockey is nothing but a sideshow, while in boxing & MMA it's what the 'sport' is all about. The only time you see fighting in hockey is in the NHL, minor & junior leagues. No fighting is allowed in the world championships, Olympics & international hockey.

What i'm saying is that you don't need fighting for hockey to be played, or survive. A point could be made that the game is actually much better without it. You don't have the goons who can barely skate who can't score in the world championships, Olympics & international hockey. You have REAL hockey players. Not the John Kordics, Dave Browns, Dave Schultz, George Laracque, Colton Orr & company. At least Tie Domi could skate & score the odd goal once in a while. Same with Bobby Probert.

What scares me the most in hockey is the fact many players have fallen down & hit their heads on the ice during a fight. This is what killed Donald Sanderson. Usually their helmets have been removed. This is what caused Cole Orr's concussion last year....well, i should say the one that ended his season. He suffered two other concussions in other fights last year, mostly that one against that big Penguins defenceman (England) that knocked him out for a few seconds. That was nasty!
 

Merlot

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Hello Doc,

Finally, you see former goons who call for a ban against fighting, versus the other goons like Domi & Laracque who say that fighting has its place in hockey. Domi (whom i used to refer to as 'Tie Dummy' when he played with the Rangers & Jets) actually blasted the former players who were against fighting since it would take away jobs. Well, what about the jobs that have been taken away from kids with real skills...who can score & skate? Yet, their spots are taken away from them on NHL teams by goons who play less than 5 minutes a game who are simply there for fisticuffs & intimidation purposes. It's not right.

If the NHL were really serious about taking out fighting out of the game, they'd start doing it by imposing tougher penalties for players who want to fight. I'd start with an automatic 10-minute misconduct for anyone who fights. If the fight is orchestrated....meaning two goons are fighting just for the sake of fighting....throw them out of a game. I'm getting sick n' tired of play stoppages in order to watch two goons go at it just for show. The games are already way too long as is.....sure, let the goons fight, but kick them out of the game once they've done their little parade in front of the fans in attendance. Once this happens, i doubt teams will want to keep a spot or two in the lineup for such no-talent players.

One of the main problems of eliminating fighting is...who is paying for the game? Is it the fans like Iggy who dismiss fights as natural, or like you and I who are focused on the emphasis on real skills and concerned about dangerous or tragic consequences. The generic fight may add some spice and excitement, but the allowances of them create a dangerous psychology that encourages brutality versus skills. So why did this permissiveness favoring fights get such a firm hold on the sport? From what I hear on hockey talk sports radio there are too many fans like Iggy who think it's just part of the sport, part of the kind of "man's game" they think is what the sport was meant to be.

I disagree that the penalties need to be toughed to have a significant effect. When even the brutal cheap shots that knock great stars out of the sport receive only minor penalties among those already available for the grave damage done to individuals, and the fans make little complaint about the highest profile stars like Crosby being brutalized, then the message to the NHL office is don't apply the harsher penalties. It's not that the penalties aren't there, they just aren't enforced to match the level of the particular offense, and the only logical reason I can come up with as to why so little is done in the face of such great player loss is the fans who provide the profits want fighting and the NHL is deliberately being lax to profit from those wishes.

So while I agree with your view on fighting, I have to agree with others that I see little chance anything will change for a long time because of the typical hockey fans attitudes and wishes. Fighting has become traditionally accepted as proper in the sport and getting rid of it is going to require a significant shift in fan attitude...or a leader with big enough balls to ban it regardless of what many fans want and the resulting risk to profits.

Cheers,

Merlot
 

lgna69xxx

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I agree with a lot of what you say brother, but this is one thing we respectfully will NEVER agree on. Since a little kid when i attended my first ever professional sport in person (Yankees game) to the hundreds of them since, i have always loved every moment being at a pro sporting event and can't remember wanting to leave early. (maybe if it was a long one sided game or something once) If anything i hate that NHL games are so quick, (yes, 2.5 hours is too quick for something i dont get to see in person nearly enuf) especially since paying the enormous prices just to see a game these days. I want to be there as long as i can. I once sat thru a 18 inning Yankees game and loved it. That game, i truly got my monies worth! I am not saying i have to be at the arena for a 4 hour hockey game but i hate that a Leafs game starting at 7pm is sort of 'scripted' to end by 9:30 .... BRING ON OVERTIME!!!!!!!!! (just kidding, it would be too hard on the players over a 82 game season) If i was a season ticket holder, i would probably feel more like you do, but by going to 10 games or less a season, it is a 'treat' to be there and i want to be there for as long as possible. It is all about the atmosphere and i love it!

The games are already way too long as is.....sure, let the goons fight, but kick them out of the game once they've done their little parade in front of the fans in attendance. Once this happens, i doubt teams will want to keep a spot or two in the lineup for such no-talent players.
 

Doc Holliday

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i have always loved every moment being at a pro sporting event and can't remember wanting to leave early. If anything i hate that NHL games are so quick, especially since paying the enormous prices just to see a game these days. I want to be there as long as i can. But by going to 10 games or less a season, it is a 'treat' to be there and i want to be there for as long as possible. It is all about the atmosphere and i love it!

I see your point & you're entitled to it. But when the NHL introduced the 5-minute overtime period, and eventually the shootout, you now had games that lasted over three hours. This isn't the Yankees/Red Sox. It's a hockey game. Hockey games are supposed to be finished in 2.5 hours, easy.

As for fighting making the game more exciting, fine. But if hockey needs violence to survive, we might as well let teams hire henchmen where their roles would solely be to severely injure the opposing players. The better the player, the better! They could give bonuses to the player who was able to draw more blood. Why not let teams put bounties on several of the other team's players prior to each game & announce it to the fans before the drop of the puck?

Heck, why not allow each team to have one player carrying the weapon of his chosing? Like in the old days of gladiators, have a coin toss, and the winner of the coin toss gets to pick one of three weapons, and the loser of the coin toss has to chose among the other two. And finally, how about having a player get his contract automatically renewed for one more year the moment he ends a player's season?

Wouldn't this make hockey even more exciting? :D

I'm just being fastitious, of course. But the point i'm trying to make is that the NHL is being very hypocritical. They realize that they have a very serious problem with head shots & the resulting concussions. They're taking a beating in the media & it's not helping the sport. Why would any parent want his kid to play hockey if it'll put his life & well-being in danger? I'll use a personal example of this. One of my sibblings played hockey his entire life, all the way to NCAA hockey. Over his career, he took several cheap-shots to the head & suffered several concussions over his career. When he finished his college hockey career in the States, he wasn't offered any type of work at the professional level. Eventually, he got a master's degree & eventually became a dentist. However, he's not even 40 yet & there are times that when he gets out of bed in the morning, he doesn't even know which day of the week we are, and has at times even forgot which month it is. You can bet Bobby Orr's jockstrap that this is a result of his concussions while playing hockey & if my parents could back up the clock, they never would have let their kids play hockey.

Finally, my point is: the NHL says it wants to abolish head shots & takes concussions seriously. However, it allows players to continue bashing themselves on the head for the sake of entertainment. Fine. But is it that long ago that an open-ice bodycheck committed by the likes of Bobby Baun, Mark Messier & Scott Stevens was considered one of the most exciting play in hockey? Those same bodychecks are now illegal & a player faces a considerable suspension if ever he's guilty of doing it.

Again, i love a good hockey fight. As long as they're spontaneous & not premediated like 80% of the fights we saw last year, which had become a bit of a joke. I like to watch a good hockey game, but not if i have to sit on my ass for three hours or more. Whether i pay $50, $100 or $200 for my ticket won't change my view of this. However, there will come a time where the NHL will have to stop being hypocritical & figure out what it wants to do with head shots. If it's serious about eliminating them, then they might not have a choice but to ban fighting like many other leagues have.
 

lgna69xxx

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Doc, I am not trying to change your or anyones view, just telling you mine is all and I still want as much time at an arena as possible. :thumb: I am like a kid in a candy store at a porfessional sporting event, and i hope that never changes.

I agree the staged fights are somewhat lacking in the drama of it all. One good example of a non staged fight was last year against Ottawa in the second game of the season when Mike Fisher and Kris Versteeg went at it out of nowhere, Trouble is tho, it wasnt much of a fight as it was a spur of the moment type fight. At least with the staged fights ONCE IN AWHILE they seem more calculated and sometimes are better in terms of a true "fight", like MMA or BOXING they seem to have more of a strategy or game plan, not all of them as quite a few are actually nothing more than dancing and hanging on. I remember Colton Orr and Lucic going at it, was it staged? Yes and No.. i think Colton tried to fight him earlier but Lucic woudnt go, so finally after trying for a shift or 2, he decided to throw down and it was a really good battle and seemed to inspire both teams, not to mention the crowd in the tdbank garden. But yea, some of the more obvious "staged" fights are not entertaining at all.

And noone is saying hockey needs fighting to survive. If they took fighting out of the NHL tomorrow, the league would not fold. And as far as a player who only fights, and is taking the spot of a more talented hockey player, i can see your point there, but also some of those "fighters only" or "goons" are some of the nicest ppl off the ice and are beloved in their hockey community and help to GROW that Brands (team) popularity which in turn makes the value of that team even higher financially speaking. Colton Orr is one of the most popular Leafs OFF the ice and he attends tons of charity events in the Toronto area and is doing his job more OFF the ice than on it, and that is to help grow the Leafs Brand in a very positive way. While some more on ice talented players help make their team make money by on ice contributions, his is more off ice and every team needs guys like this because every player on every team is not a Crosby or Ovechkin. Colton when he isnt looking for a fight is a useful player but unfortunately, thats not his role from the coaching staff. A Lot of 'goons' are huge ambassadors to their teams.
 
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Doc Holliday

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Doc, I am not trying to change your or anyones view, just telling you mine is all and I still want as much time at an arena as possible. :thumb: I am like a kid in a candy store at a porfessional sporting event, and i hope that never changes.

I agree the staged fights are somewhat lacking in the drama of it all. I remember Colton Orr and Lucic going at it, was it staged? Yes and No.. i think Colton tried to fight him earlier but Lucic woudnt go, so finally after trying for a shift or 2, he decided to throw down and it was a really good battle and seemed to inspire both teams, not to mention the crowd in the tdbank garden. But yea, some of the more obvious "staged" fights are not entertaining at all.

Colton Orr is one of the most popular Leafs OFF the ice and he attends tons of charity events in the Toronto area and is doing his job more OFF the ice than on it, and that is to help grow the Leafs Brand in a very positive way. While some more on ice talented players help make their team make money by on ice contributions, his is more off ice and every team needs guys like this because every player on every team is not a Crosby or Ovechkin. Colton when he isnt looking for a fight is a useful player but unfortunately, thats not his role from the coaching staff. A Lot of 'goons' are huge ambassadors to their teams.

Wasn't it Jay Rosehill that fought Milan Lucic? I don't recall Cole Orr ever fighting him.

Many hockey players are ambassadors to their teams. You don't have to be a goon in order to be one. However, other than Tie Domi & possibly George Laracque, i have trouble remembering any other goons that could be described as 'ambassadors' to their teams. Actually, the more i think of it, habs management wanted Laracque to shut his big mouth & that's what eventually led to the end of his career.

As for Colton Orr being popular off the ice, of course, it probably has to do with his role. But to the life of me, i can't recall a single time when i heard him talk on tv or radio. Has he ever? Heck, he's been with the Leafs for two seasons & i don't even know how he looks like without his helmet on. But that's besides the point, i suppose.
 

joelcairo

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Never thought I'd write this in a hockey thread, but I agree with every single word Doc has written in all his posts concerning iggy's Jack Todd article. Bravo Doc (for the SECOND time today!).
 

lgna69xxx

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Talking about this one, that night it was not a staged fight really, as Colton was after Lucic earlier in the game but Milan would not fight him and then finally said "OK" on a shift or two later....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzecGFw2M_o


the fight your talking about between Rosie and Lucic was this one



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oR0wpmD74o

Listen to the announcer after the fight, he says "good OLD FASHIONED HOCKEY in Boston tonight" I agree with you, staged fights do suck but ones like these two are awesome!

(that fan pounding on the glass at 1.32 looks familiar) :confused:


Wasn't it Jay Rosehill that fought Milan Lucic? I don't recall Cole Orr ever fighting him.
 

lgna69xxx

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Top goalie coach: "Reimer as good as Patrick Roy"

OSHAWA - As if James Reimer won’t be under enough pressure when the Maple Leafs open training camp this weekend, he got a heap of praise from the team’s goaltending consultant, Francois Allaire, on Sunday.

“I have started a lot of young kids in the league, some really good ones, and I think James is as good as anyone else I have coached so far in my career,” Allaire said. “(Reimer’s) progression has been phenomenal for one reason — his work ethic has been phenomenal. I’ve been impressed with James the last two seasons.”

Allaire had a hand in making Patrick Roy what he became in the National Hockey League. Jean-Sebastien Giguere won a Stanley Cup in Anaheim with Allaire as his guide.

While Reimer is the guy that everyone in Leafs Nation hopes leads the club to the promised land — and right now, that’s simply a playoff spot — Allaire wants to see Jonas Gustavsson take another step this season. Heart troubles have kept Gustavsson going in a loop for a while.

“Now is the time to turn the corner in his career,” Allaire said. “You cannot stay in the same spot for three or four or five years in a row. He needs to be at the top of his game and show everybody he can play at that level.”

Toronto Marlies coach Dallas Eakins, who is running the bench at the rookie tournament at the General Motors Centre, said Reimer took a bit of time to get accustomed to Allaire.

“I remember James coming to me and saying, ‘There are some things he wants me to do with my equipment, and he has me doing this,’” Eakins said. “I just told him, ‘This guy has a track record of success, you have to be open to change, stick with it.’ And James gave it a chance and it worked for him.”








http://www.torontosun.com/2011/09/11/high-praise-for-leafs-reimer
 

lgna69xxx

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Ramona's Courage

Better grab a tissue, or 2....... :(

[video]http://watch.tsn.ca/featured/clip531532#clip531532[/video]
 
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lgna69xxx

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Ok New sheriff of discipline, Brendan Shanahan, lets see how you lay down your first suspension to the dirty jOdy shelley. 10-15 games would be nice if your gonna keep your word that your going to be tough on crap like this.

[video=youtube;js1MyNjOwg0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js1MyNjOwg0&feature=player_embedded[/video]
 

Special K

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Ok New sheriff of discipline, Brendan Shanahan, lets see how you lay down your first suspension to the dirty jOdy shelley. 10-15 games would be nice if your gonna keep your word that your going to be tough on crap like this.

[video=youtube;js1MyNjOwg0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js1MyNjOwg0&feature=player_embedded[/video]

Couple of points here. First of all, definitely a dirty shot by Shelley on Boyce. I can see 4-6 games but definitely not 10-15. I wonder if you'd be calling for the same 10-15 if it wasn't a player on your favorite team that was taken out Iggy?

Second, great job by Rosehill coming to the defense of his fallen comrade, got some nice punches in before getting totally winded and looking for the ref to stop the bout.
 
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