What a difference a decade makes for American hobbyists (2001-2011)

[Mod 11]

Guys, this isn't a thread about US/Canada politics.

Politics do have an effect on the price of everything, that's undeniable but, I see some "heavy wording" already in this thread that hint to something ugly coming... Let's ensure it won't get there.

Thanks

 

[CS Martin]

Rusty, Nice perspective on costs. For myself there's a lot of intangibles to Montreal that became evident in comparison on a recent trip to CR. I'm sure these intangibles are different for other hobbiests and my perspective is different from many.

1) Florida, my home, is a hobbying wasteland. You can find product and price, but availability is limited. Alternatives are really a matter of time and effort. CR is a good time alternative, but lacks the ambiance & style of Montreal.
2) The SPs in Montreal are typically better than the uninspired SPs I saw in CR.
3) The food sucks in CR. I'm sure there are exceptions in CR, but it's easy to find good food in Montreal.
4) You get a hint of the French Culture in Montreal while getting to speak mostly English.
5) I know and understand "the turf" better in Montreal. I'm no expert, but at least I understand it better than other areas.

Bottom line is, where in North America can a hobbiest find the combination of beautiful SPs willing to please at a reasonable price in a pleasant modern environment mixed with old world charm? EB has commented on this as well. The combination of SPs, lenient LE, culinary arts, and general environment are excellent. I could do without the serious weather in January & February, but what the heck.

 

[evillethings]

... Bottom line is, where in North America can a hobbiest find the combination of beautiful SPs willing to please at a reasonable price in a pleasant modern environment mixed with old world charm? EB has commented on this as well. The combination of SPs, lenient LE, culinary arts, and general environment are excellent. I could do without the serious weather in January & February, but what the heck.

That brought tears to my eyes... so true, so very true. Lived in Toronto for a decade, Boston + Newport for a couple of yrs and I can honestly stay MTL is head n shoulders above the rest in just about everything hobby related. So even though over time cost has >, it's still the best place in North America.

 

[Montreal2008]

This is a very good thread. In year 2001, I used Mr. Jacques's ageny almost exclusively and I remember the hourly rate was $130. Mr.Jacques kept this rate until year 2006.

The cost of hobby increased a lot since year 2001. I break it down in three parts.
(1) Airfare:
The price of airline ticket has been tripled by US airlines since year 2001. This has nothing to do with the foreign currency exchange rate.
(2) Hotel:
The hotel price itself only increased slightly since year 2001 for Canadian hobbyists. The hotel price increased dramatically for US hobbyists due to the USD vs CAD exchange rate ( Major factor) and the cancellation of the hotel tax refund policy (Minor factor).
(3) The cost of hobby itself:
This cost also increased a lot since year 2001. The average hourly rate was $130 in year 2001 and the average hourly rate is $180-$200 now. The US hobbyists suffer from both rate increase and poor USD vs CAD exchange rate.

 

[CS Martin]

The cost of hobby increased a lot since year 2001. I break it down in three parts.
(1) Airfare:
The price of airline ticket has been tribled by US airlines since year 2001. This has nothing to do with the foreign currency exchange rate.
(2) Hotel:
The hotel price itself only increased slightly since year 2001 for Canadian hobbyists. The hotel price increased daramatically for US hobbyists due to the USD vs CAD exchange rate ( Major factor) and the cancellation of the hotel tax refund policy (Minor factor).
(3) The cost of hobby itself:
This cost also increased a lot since year 2001. The average hourly rate was $130 in year 2001 and the average hourly rate is $180-$200 now. The US hobbyists suffer from both rate increase and poor USD vs CAD exchange rate.

1) My airfare has increased about 20% in US Dollars. However, there are more direct flights from Orlando to Montreal, due to increased travel from Quebec. That shaves 3 hours off my transit. So the price went up $90-$100 average, but I save 3 hours. I bill my time at $150-$200 per hour.
2) Granted hotel costs have increased by 30 to 40%. That means I'll actually have to use Priceline.
3) The price for the product vs. cost is still better in Montreal, assuming you're buying in volume. If a traveler goes there for 2 or less appts, it's better to stay home. Anything more and I submit the hobbiest still comes out ahead.

Note: My only real complaint about Montreal besides the weather in Jan/Feb is the loose trash on the street on "trash day". You guys gotta get some rules on this issue.

 

[Mod 11]

Warning to all:

The exchange rate and the augmentation of all other incidentials relating to our US friends meeting Montréal SP have nothing to do with the price the girls/agencies are charging. Those costs aro not within the SP's control.

On the total mentioned by Rusty, only $160CAN of the difference is caused by the SP. In today's money with exchange rate, that's about $160US so, compared to the $600US difference noted, it's less than 1/3 of the total raise.

Cost of living went up in Canada too. Also, you guys must remember that the GFE services were far from the norm in 2001. 1 SOG was current, no CIM, rare DFK... The price went up more than inflation but the services went up also. You get what you pay for. Some agencies are still offering "menus" with lower starting prices, with chargeable options. That makes the prices in line with inflation, 2001 prices and services. More services, more costs.

Looking at the totals given above by Rusty, even if the SP would ask $160 instead of $180, I don't think it would make our US friends visit more. In Rusty's scenario, that would be $80 less on an expense of over $1300.

Now, this thread refers to the cost difference for our US friends. If I see other post trying to single-out the price charged by SP, the post will get deleted without further warning. This has been discussed before: SP are allowed to charge whatever they feels like. Those who don't agree just have to avoid SP they think are too pricey.

Thanks

 

[Gonzila]

The exchange rate and the augmentation of all other incidentials relating to our US friends meeting Montréal SP have nothing to do with the price the girls/agencies are charging. Those costs aro not within the SP's control.

On the total mentioned by Rusty, only $160CAN of the difference is caused by the SP. In today's money with exchange rate, that's about $160US so, compared to the $600US difference noted, it's less than 1/3 of the total raise.

Cost of living went up in Canada too. Also, you guys must remember that the GFE services were far from the norm in 2001. 1 SOG was current, no CIM, rare DFK... The price went up more than inflation but the services went up also. You get what you pay for. Some agencies are still offering "menus" with lower starting prices, with chargeable options. That makes the prices in line with inflation, 2001 prices and services. More services, more costs.

Looking at the totals given above by Rusty, even if the SP would ask $160 instead of $180, I don't think it would make our US friends visit more. In Rusty's scenario, that would be $80 less on an expense of over $1300.

Now, this thread refers to the cost difference for our US friends. If I see other post trying to single-out the price charged by SP, the post will get deleted without further warning. This has been discussed before: SP are allowed to charge whatever they feels like. Those who don't agree just have to avoid SP they think are too pricey.

Thanks

Yo mama is on special these days, I hear.

>>> EDITED BY MOD 11: This is a Tony post. <<<

 

[JH Fan]

Guys, this isn't a thread about US/Canada politics.

Politics do have an effect on the price of everything, that's undeniable but, I see some "heavy wording" already in this thread that hint to something ugly coming... Let's ensure it won't get there.

Thanks

Too true ! my mistake

I'm sorry. I was gonna bash on Canada's politic as well but you're right !
It's no use !

 

[CS Martin]

In my mind the exchange rate would need to move another 20% for things to get totally out of wack regarding the hobbying formula. Something tells me parity will be the new norm. Now if the U.S. LE situation were to ever change a new dynamic would enter the market. I know, John Lennon would call me a "dreamer".......

 

[Guido]

IMHO it was quite naive to believe that the CAD would remain at the .68 US forever. The historic valuations did not support that premise.
Now anyone with some foresight would of bought up some of the great deals available at the time. I know that a lot of Americans and Europeans bought condos in Montreal at the time and rented them out when they weren't using them. They are now sitting on properties they has increased in the range of about 200% (currency plus real estate appriciation)
These wise investors have a free place to stay plus their property income more than pays for their hobby and some great times in Montreal.

Hindsight is 20/20.

 

[eastender]

Overlooked................

Overlooked in the analysis is how the local US markets and providers have adjusted since 2001 in order to retain and grow their business.

 

[EagerBeaver]

IMHO it was quite naive to believe that the CAD would remain at the .68 US forever. The historic valuations did not support that premise.
Now anyone with some foresight would of bought up some of the great deals available at the time. I know that a lot of Americans and Europeans bought condos in Montreal at the time and rented them out when they weren't using them. They are now sitting on properties they has increased in the range of about 200% (currency plus real estate appriciation)
These wise investors have a free place to stay plus their property income more than pays for their hobby and some great times in Montreal.

Hindsight is 20/20.

Back in 2002 I believed the exchange rate was too good to be true. The truth is the US economy got even better after that before it got worse. I made 3 trips to Montreal in a 2 month span in the summer of 2002 and on each trip I spent a ton of money and I remember thinking at the time it was unbelievable the value I was getting not just in escorts but hotels and restaurants. Guido, in those days the 3 star hotels on Priceline were going for under $50 and the 4 stars for under $70. The restaurants were either the same prices or cheaper as equivalent quality restaurants in Boston and New York City, yet with the exchange rate I was paying far less for the meals I was eating because my $1 US was then worth S1.6 CDN. At the time it seemed too good to be true, and I did not want it to stop. In those days, I was using HDH agencies exclusively but the truth is that in most cases they were delivering very hot ladies for 2 hours at $450 CDN which was costing me around $290(US). Such ladies and such service were not available at a similar price anywhere in the US or even close. All of this made repeat travel to Canada a total fucking no brainer. Since then, things have changed and now the cost of such trips are more in line with travel within the USA. However the escort costs are still much cheaper even if hotel and restaurant costs have equalized somewhat.

I have also come to appreciate the quality of the restaurants in Montreal. Just by way of example, I think one of the most underrated restaurants in Montreal is the Korean restaurant Manna. I have been to about 5 highly rated Korean restaurants in Koreatown aka Little Korea in New York City and none are as good as Manna and none are as cheap as Manna. I have also come to be a huge fan of Montreal bagels and most restaurants are serving them and serving them very fresh.

Finally there is parking. I know that locals find the cost of parking at Montreal hotels to be hideously expensive but it is still far cheaper than what you would pay anywhere in Boston or NYC. It's on the order of being half as expensive in some cases, and that is a fact.

So the gap has closed in some areas and not so much in others, but across the board the summer of 2002's value extravaganza for Americans is now long gone.

 

[EagerBeaver]

Also, you guys must remember that the GFE services were far from the norm in 2001. 1 SOG was current, no CIM, rare DFK... The price went up more than inflation but the services went up also. You get what you pay for. Some agencies are still offering "menus" with lower starting prices, with chargeable options. That makes the prices in line with inflation, 2001 prices and services. More services, more costs.Thanks

I would have to agree with Mod 11 on this point. What happened after 2001 was the GFE Revolution which occurred 2003-2005 and all started with a 2003 post on TBD (The Big Doggie) by a hobbyist named St. Bart who has since become legendary in the annals of international hobbying. The so called GFE revolution quickly spread to boards like MERB and soon agencies began marketing their ladies as GFE or YMMV, although those definitions and labels have since evolved. The pressure on ladies to perform more services has been extreme and has led to rate increases. I am surprised we have not seen safe service or non GFE providers marketing at lower rates, but it may be that by and large there is not much of a market for such providers.

I do recall non GFE, HDH providers (or at least YMMV - they were labelled non GFE on the boards) who were quite popular in 2001. Caitlyn was one, but there were others as well. Whether the GFE revolution has been a positive or negative influence on the scope of supply is something I don't know, but one can speculate that it has negatively impacted the supply side and this has also caused rates to go up. I think some ladies may decline the opportunity to work because of lack of comfort providing GFE services on a consistent as opposed to YMMV basis. These ladies not being on the market create a diminution in supply and, accordingly, an increase in demand and in prices.

 

[CS Martin]

Gotta agree with EB on this one. Bottom line is $ for $, Montreal is still by far the best value in North America. In my mind the single greatest impediment to a more competitive market in NA is the removal of LE from the equastion. This will not happen in my lifetime. This matter has been beat to death. On an overall view, only three real negative issues in the Montreal marketplace at this time:

1) Trash Day in Montreal- Come on guys, the city is great, but let's put the trash in containers.
2) Certain parties have re-entered the marketplace that need to be re-exorcised.
3) More honoring of privacy from providers/agencies (see no. 2 as an additional threat to this item).

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

Also, you guys must remember that the GFE services were far from the norm in 2001. 1 SOG was current, no CIM, rare DFK... The price went up more than inflation but the services went up also. You get what you pay for. Some agencies are still offering "menus" with lower starting prices, with chargeable options. That makes the prices in line with inflation, 2001 prices and services. More services, more costs.

I'm going to disagree vehemently with this point. My primary sources of pleasure in 2001 were Heartbreakers and the incall Private Lies, now both defunct. Each charged $150 for the hour. I'm now paying primarily $160-$180 through any number of agencies and indies. The 2001 rate translates to $187 today at a conservative compounded inflation rate of 2.5%. In fact, prices have gone up more slowly than the rate of inflation even as the quality of services has increased.

Update: Per http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ $150 in 2001 dollars = $186.67 in 2011 dollars, so my own estimate was pretty dead-on.

The exchange rate is another issue entirely. Sob.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

in 2001, you could get escort at $99 an hour (and 2 for 1 on special) widely advertised in JdM at that time...

escort rates are rarely tower than $160

I think you're comparing apples and oranges. What you were getting for $99 in 2001 isn't what you can get for $160 today. There's more than enough $120 action on Annonce123 today; that's the same increase, again, as the rate of inflation. The Golden Age of Hobbying, to use Beav's term, is right now.

 

[Merlot]

Hmmm,

Bottom line is, where in North America can a hobbiest find the combination of beautiful SPs willing to please at a reasonable price in a pleasant modern environment mixed with old world charm? EB has commented on this as well. The combination of SPs, lenient LE, culinary arts, and general environment are excellent. I could do without the serious weather in January & February, but what the heck.

So you think Montreal SPs are ``willing`` to perform their services at Montreal rates out of the goodness of their hearts, and it has little to do with economic rates just being different. In that case it would be safe to put the Toronto rate in her hand because she would give you back the difference from Montreal rates. Try it and see what happens...wink wink!

The exchange rate and the augmentation of all other incidentials relating to our US friends meeting Montréal SP have nothing to do with the price the girls/agencies are charging. Those costs aro not within the SP`s control.

While this may be true, everything must be considered together. Exchange rates are down for Americans by about 35% from 2002 highs, minimum escort rates are up 33% ($160) to 50% ($180) from $120, Priceline no longer seems to accept bids under $70-75 for a 3-star at any time of year...up about 30-40% from $50-55, and gas prices (I drive) are up 100%.

Plus, my habit in 2001 was for two hours with an SP, not one. That`s $80-120 more per meeting.

Cost of living went up in Canada too. Also, you guys must remember that the GFE services were far from the norm in 2001. 1 SOG was current, no CIM, rare DFK... The price went up more than inflation but the services went up also. You get what you pay for. Some agencies are still offering ``menus`` with lower starting prices, with chargeable options. That makes the prices in line with inflation, 2001 prices and services. More services, more costs.

Thanks

Yes, factor in cost of living and the superior service and the rates make sense. However monsieur, whether a lady provides GFE service as advertised is the question and the problem. When we look at the labels (acronyms) used by the agencies today it seems nearly every lady in Montreal is a GFE. TRUE??? Certainly not! One problem is the GFE label has never been full standardized by consensus, the other problem is the GFE label is being applied like a wholesale come on to justify rates.

I can tell you from first hand experience ladies being advertised as GFE are not providing minimal GFE standards...and I have never required any lady to CIM, Swallow, or perform other more PSE services some clients try to push as GFE. I consider GFE to be DFK, Daty, , and an unrushed enjoyment to sog completion; and there was DFK in 2002.

So while the rates may reflect demands, they don`t reflect the real services being given nearly as often.

I think you`re comparing apples and oranges. What you were getting for $99 in 2001 isn`t what you can get for $160 today. There`s more than enough $120 action on Annonce123 today; that`s the same increase, again, as the rate of inflation. The Golden Age of Hobbying, to use Beav`s term, is right now.

I don`t know what kind of lady or services Annonces provides, so I am not knocking them. But when rates are drastically below standard I get suspicious.

As for this being the ``Golden Age of Hobbying``...it would have cost me between $75-80 to get $120 CDN in 2002 for one of the very solid mid-level agencies. And the cost of every other factor was drastically less. So ``Golden Age`` in 2011...also adding in the misuse of GFE advertising...not a chance Rumples.

Cheers,

Merlot

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

While this may be true, everything must be considered together. Exchange rates are down for Americans by about 35% from 2002 highs, minimum escort rates are up 33% ($160) to 50% ($180) from $120, Priceline no longer seems to accept bids under $70-75 for a 3-star at any time of year...up about 30-40% from $50-55, and gas prices (I drive) are up 100%.

I don't know what agencies you were booking for $120 in 2002, but the agencies that were the equivalent of Chloes/Devilish and the like were getting $140-150 back then.

I don't know what kind of lady or services Annonces provides, so I am not knocking them. But when rates are drastically below standard I get suspicious.

I suppose it varies; I was using it as a comparison to the Journal ads from 10 years ago at $99.

As for this being the "Golden Age of Hobbying"...it would have cost me between $75-80 to get $120 CDN in 2002 for one of the very solid mid-level agencies. And the cost of every other factor was drastically less. So "Golden Age" in 2011...also adding in the misuse of GFE advertising...not a chance Rumples.

I'm not taking the exchange rate into account as that doesn't affect everybody. The quality of service has never been higher. There have never been as many indies working at agency rates are there are today. As for the misuse of GFE in advertising, one needs only be careful. I've only had a problem one time and that was taking a flyer on a new agency that is now setting a new standard for bad reviews.

 

[EagerBeaver]

I concluded SPs, MPs and agencies have 2 rates, lower rates for locals and higher rates for Americans.
Rates for locals often are flat rates, tourist (including americans) will pay flat rates but girls will ask more for "extras" once in the room and the control is switch to the smaller brain...

Exactly what is your basis for this conclusion? Name one agency that has different rates for Americans and locals.

 

[Guido]

I don't think that it only applies to Americans,but to anyone that may come across as a Dady Warbucks,always stands a better chance of being scammed by some of the working girls.
Greed can be a very powerful stimulus.