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Thread: The Underworld and Prostitution

  1. #1

    The Underworld and Prostitution

    I don't know if anyone wants to get into this, but it's something that's always been in the back of my mind. How much of prostitution is controlled by gangs or the mafia? How is it different in Canada versus the US? Is it really possible to be independent without having to answer to anyone? Genuinely curious. It's certainly not something I would bring up while I'm with a provider. Even with some providers that I've known for a while, I just can't ask them about this. I understand if you don't want to get into it, but I had to ask.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by gurgeh85 View Post
    Genuinely curious.
    Hello gurgeh85

    Just make a breakdown of the profits running a agency at the moment you will have your answer ..........


    https://merb.cc/vbulletin/showthread...-and-the-Mafia

    Same subject


    http://www.oocities.org/wiseguywally/ScottSteinert.html

    Scott Steinert was born in Wisconsin, America, in 1962 and relocated to Quebec with his family at the age of eight. Not much is known about his early years but, by the early 90s, Steinert had become a feared member of the Hells Angels Montreal chapter. He was now extremely influential and owned three stripper agencies and an escort service.

    The Hells Angel became godfather to the Laval based Death Riders motorcycle gang after Michael "L'Animal" Lajoie-Smith's August 30, 1996 conviction for planting a bomb at the Le Gascon stripclub in Lachenaie. He now supervised the gang's activities in Laval and the lower Laurentians.

    Later that year, Steinert moved into the extravagant Lavigueur mansion on Ile-Jesus. He put up an eight-foot high fence around the property and installed security cameras on the estate. Steinert even had his bodyguard, Donald Magnusen, move into one of the homes on the property.
    Hells Angels Montreal Chapter
    The Lavigueur estate became his base of operations and Steinert often conducted business with other Hells Angels and members of his puppet club, the Death Riders, there. He also directed and starred in several porno movies on the property, the most famous of which is Babe's Angel.

    In late August, 1997, as the war between the Hells Angels and Rock Machine raged on, Steinert's escort service was torched by rivals. But it was only a temporary setback and business continued as usual.

    On the evening of November 4, 1997, just weeks after Steinert's marriage, he called his bodyguard Donald Magnusen and explained that they had a meeting to attend. Magnusen left his house in tears and the two never returned.

    The Surete du Quebec, who believed Steinert had went into hiding to escape deportation, issued a warrant for his arrest on January 22, 1998. He was also charged with possessing goods obtained with the proceeds of crime and seized the Lavigueur estate, two houses in Sorel, and a garage.

    The truth behind Steinert's disappearance unfolded on May 23, 1998, when police discovered the Magnusen's corpse in the St. Lawrence Seaway. Steinert's body floated to the surface almost a year later, on April 15, 1999. The Hells Angels had beaten both men to death, wrapped them in plastic, and dumped the bodies in the river. The motive behind the murders has yet to be revealed.



    Cheers




    Booker

  3. #3
    For one I have to confirm that us independents have NOTHING to do and absolutely no contact with any kind of organized crime...
    Same goes for my limited experience with agencies. No one was paying any kind of cuts to anyone.

    Apparently they are much more active in the "protection business" with legitimate businesses like bars and restaurants.

  4. #4
    Booker, I don't see how breaking the profits gives an answer to the question.

    It's obvious that gangs and mafia are present in the business. It is also obvious that they do not control the markets of escort agencies and massage parlour. The infos available from LE tend to show a bigger involvement in strip clubs, but even there, there it is not a systematic protection racket. Their interest is the control of the drug market in these places. I would add to Amelie's answer the same observation for massage parlors. Agencies and MPs are highly competitive markets. It would be way too expensive for OC to try to take control. The main involvement I have seen here in Québec is a couple of parlors operated by women who had family members in the HA. They were totally independent, however. And there is no way parlors could generate significant profits for those organizations.

  5. #5
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    I don't think anyone can control the market. Even in legalized countries most sex workers prefer to work outside of regulations. And it's pretty easy to work outside of regulation. Sex is not like drug or alcohol. It doesn't need to be manufactured or imported and anyone can do it from their home. Gugu said it well: organized crime (or government) control drugs by establishing a monopoly on the supply. Gangs make war or negotiate to determine territories. There's no way anyone can effectively create a monopoly on sex.

    Also, the line between ''organized crime'' and ''government'' is a blurred line. Much like between ''prostitution'' and ''regular sex''. If police can't enforce regulations in a legal system, organized crime can't effectively control it either in a criminalized system. That doesn't mean they are not involved. People confuse ''being involved'' and ''controlling''. I bet there are plenty of restaurants and shops that are owned by organized crime, that doesn't mean they control the food industry.
    “Truth, Justice, Freedom, Reasonably Priced Love.”

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by gugu View Post
    Booker, I don't see how breaking the profits gives an answer to the question.

    I would add to Amelie's answer the same observation for massage parlors. Agencies and MPs are highly competitive markets. It would be way too expensive for OC to try to take control. .
    Hey gugu


    You are actually providing the answer in your answer !Thanks


    Cheers




    Booker

  7. #7
    Progressive policies and the Internet/email/cell phones simply replaced organized crime in the U.S. and Canada.

    And it is possible that organized crime was not really as bad as TV made it out to be. Before the Internet, a prostitute had trouble marketing. Organized crime could help with that - the guy who wanted to make a bet with a bookie might also want to get laid. Organized crime knew the working girls. Now the guy can not only go to the legal casino, he can find the prostitute online, use the review boards to read about her services, and contact her via cellphone and email. She does not need to outsource that marketing. Also before cellphones, she might need to do the street thing or be at a set incall, both of which made her a sitting duck if law enforcement wanted to shut her down. But in many parts of the world, especially in big cities, cops were inclined to look the other way with respect to a nice, upscale brothel if organized crime was putting a few bucks into the right pockets. But the proliferation of affordable motel and hotel rooms, as well as the ability to have customers go to her apartment, eliminates this. Also, people were simply a hell of a lot nosier when organized crime had a role and noticed who went in and out of motels and hotels, especially the smaller ones that dominated North America before huge hotels were popular.

    Of course, organized crime did provide a lot of protection for the girls. You were not exactly going to become violent with a lady if you thought that Gwedo was going to find you and beat the shit out of you. That comfort level has never been replicated again, particularly at the lower end of the industry. In the U.S., the screening system helps a lot, since she knows the guy's real name. Most independent ladies have a network, with once again the cell phone being key, so they can call someone before and after the appointment and with that someone also being able to take care of issues in the unlikely event of an arrest. The security issues made agencies attractive to a lot of ladies, but agencies have long been the primary target of U.S. law enforcement. C-36 purports to solve the security issue in Canada by making it legal to provide, but I am pretty skeptical of this. Most security issues are resolved for a lady in both the U.S. and Canada by simply working for a good agency or marketing to a relatively higher price point. Organized crime will not make enough money getting involved with ladies marketing at a lower price point, so they have long ago exited the business.

    Two interesting subjects in the modern world are the Asian low-cost incall places and the Russian escort services, neither of which I frequent. A lot of the Canadian (and U.S.) law enforcement activity centers around Asian human trafficking, but I do not buy all of the propaganda. A foreign lady who does not speak the local language has a lot of difficulty marketing herself or doing outcall by herself. It is possible that the Asians who supposedly traffick her are simply providing a service to her not that much different than "organized crime" provided to prostitutes long ago. There are a hell of a lot of willing sex workers and they provide much better service than someone enslaved against her will. So much so, that there would logically be little reason for a trafficker to want to be involved with someone who does not want to work in the industry.

    It is interesting that in France, not exactly a progressive country in terms of sex work, almost all of the favorable English-language reviews are from Russian escort services that seem to thrive in Paris with a constant flow of workers who move around European countries that frown on sex work such as Italy and to an extent Greece. Those Russian escort agencies never advertise in European countries with progressive laws and attitudes regarding sex work - like Germany, Austria, Netherlands, Czech Republic, Spain, Portugal, etc. I have always wondered what the deal is with Russian agencies - and they are pretty damn expensive by European standards, also.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by BookerL View Post
    Hey gugu

    You are actually providing the answer in your answer !Thanks
    Great! But I felt I was flipping a coin in regards with what was meant by breaking the profits.

    I always had the feeling that agencies and parlors profits were exaggerated. Some make good money, but those who do have to work very hard. They deserve the profits. So when ownership and operations are separated, the operators will want to put as much profit in their pocket.

    The Red Light era would be a good case study in that regard. Basically, the higher echelon was triangular. There was an ownership, rent seeking, class that made its money from their estates: clubs, cabarets, hotels and brothel houses. They were invisible. From what I've read, the mafia was present in the ownership, but there were also many mainstream Montreal capitalists. The operators were distinct, paying mostly fixed rents to the owners. If the Madams lost money in the operations, it was here own, and so for the profits. Bribing was important, LE was all over the place. They had the power over everybody and benefited from it.

    In such a triangular system, it's easier for OC to try to establish monopolies. You simply bring the bribing at higher echelons. But they did not have to, the market was large enough to accommodate many players. I believe lower echelons of the Mafia were also present in some operations like gambling. Ownership, however, was in the real-estate business.

    The pimps never had a major place in the system. Their main role was in the recruitment. The Madams would pay them a one shot deal for each recruit brought. Pimps were irrelevant in the brothel operations, and the protection of the girls working in them. So their traditional business was on the streets.

    That system vanished in a couple of years: 1960-1961. After that, the business atomized, spreading all over the city, making it much harder for OC to police the market. Some street gangs could establish some small neighborhood monopolies. But I don't think LE saw ever thought they had a major role in the overall sex industry and the overall OC.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Patron View Post
    Progressive policies ...
    Great post, Patron, particularly in regards to violence. Using violence is the worst possible business model in the sex industry. Any agency owner who starts using physical violence against the girls will not be able to recruit and to keep sex workers. It's that simple.

    True that LE is after the chinese operators, In France, In the USA and here in Canada. The Roses d'acier in Paris in Paris were studied by sociologists. They happen to be come all from the same city, most are over 30 and none are forced. Google searches will yield the same LE public relations in the 3 countries. They are the main focus, but they rarely show anything close to human trafficking.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by gugu View Post
    Great! But I felt I was flipping a coin in regards with what was meant by breaking the profits.
    Well now you understand
    Quote Originally Posted by gugu View Post
    I always had the feeling that agencies and parlors profits were exaggerated.
    Well I am still waiting to see a escort agency owner with a few million dollars house !In Montreal

    Quote Originally Posted by gugu View Post
    Some make good money, but those who do have to work very hard. They deserve the profits. So when ownership and operations are separated, the operators will want to put as much profit in their pocket.
    Want being the key word ,but not possible in the actual market
    Quote Originally Posted by gugu View Post
    The pimps never had a major place in the system.
    That would depend on your definition of pimps ?



    There was a few attempts by Low end OC to take a sort of control in 1996 and 2004 both attempts where not really successful ,but they did regulate posting privilege in the escort section of JDM ,some agencies where not permitted to continue .

    As a top Agency Booker at the time ,I was personally contacted ,we where authorized to post between position 3 to 5 ,but no royalties where ever paid .




    Cheers




    Booker

  11. #11
    Once upon a time the mob use to be into that sort of thing. In the 60s you needed to pay tribute to the mob, you did the dirty work and they collected the money. In the 70s the bikers ran some of the sex trade, like the escorts and strip clubs. Now there is no money in it for them.

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