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Thread: Baseball Bombshell: The Mitchell Report

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    Baseball Bombshell: The Mitchell Report

    Hello all,

    Yes, I know we have the Hotstove thread. But this is going to be so big I think it deserves it's own thread.

    Hello all,

    http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7556534

    The Mitchell Report will be naming between 60-80 players who have used steriods as I understand it. "The first name to emerge Thursday was seven-time Cy Young Award winner Roger Clemens". CNN at this moment is also reporting that Andy Pettitte will also be named as a steroid user in this report. CNN says Clemens is reported to have used steroids both with Toronto and New York...at least. As for the other 60-80 players, stay tuned at 2:00 for the rest.

    These are the only names currently being reported that I have seen. Let the chips fall where they may for any abuser on any team.

    So be it,

    Korbel


    Notation: Mark McGwire received only 25% of the votes in the last Hall of Fame balloting depite his "fabulous" stats...as reported by CNN.
    Last edited by korbel; 12-13-2007 at 01:11 PM.
    Korbie: of the Boston Red Sox Nation...the NBA Champion Boston Celtics Pride...and...the New England Patriots Dynasty!

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    Please oh please if someone can find me a betting line on Big Papi and Ramirez being named I will bet the house and give you half my winnings, I looked all over the net and none of the sports books have a line(yet).

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    Apparently the names of Clemens and Pettite were supplied by a former trainer for the Yankees, Brian McNamee. Did Mitchell speak to former/current trainers of the Red Sox? As a member of the Board of Directors of the Red Sox I would expect Mitchell to have demanded that both former and current Red Sox trainers make themselves available for interviews, and I would expect his report to indicate such interviews and what he was told. If that is omitted from his report, Mitchell should be requested to wipe his ass with it.

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    Late word has it that Joe.T will be named in the report as having used hallucinogens prior to his posting on merb.
    The mounties always get their man.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe.t
    Please oh please if someone can find me a betting line on Big Papi and Ramirez being named I will bet the house and give you half my winnings, I looked all over the net and none of the sports books have a line(yet).
    Hello Joe.t,

    Joe.t...please. Can we wait for the rest of the report before we speculate. I am going to try to be as serious, honest, and credible as possible. I hope you will too. The names will be in front of you at 2:00. I fully expect to see Red Sox player names on this report. I have already said "let the chips fall where they may". But using unreported names is nothing more than wishful bias that is just plain worthless. Let's try to cover this subject with credibility...huh.

    Really,

    Korbel

    PS

    Don't forget that under changed rules, based on the longest number of years of service with a team...as I have heard, Roger Clemens would have gone into the Hall of Fame pictured as a Red Sox player....unless things have changed again.
    Last edited by korbel; 12-13-2007 at 02:19 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by curious
    This is a farce. The fact is steroid use is widespread throughout professional sports. The current governor of California admitted to having used them in the past, so if that doesn't disqualify him from being governor, what difference does it make if baseball players are doing it?

    How about a law requiring politicians and corporate CEOs to take drug tests? You can just imagine what that would turn up.
    Hello Curious.

    You mean it is very incomplete. If this report starts weeding out abusers, I am all for it.

    To Joe.t,

    Underlined names of alleged abusers start around page 127 of the report, and page 175 of the PDF format frame. Sorry, I don't have time to be more accurate until tonight. A quick first look shows no Manny Ramirez, David Ortiz, or A-Rod. Barry Bonds, and Eric Gagne are...strangely enough.

    More later,

    Korbel
    Korbie: of the Boston Red Sox Nation...the NBA Champion Boston Celtics Pride...and...the New England Patriots Dynasty!

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    Korbel,

    The fact that any player is not on Mitchell's list does not mean that the player is "innocent." It means nothing. In fact Mitchell's only "new information" came from Brian McNamee. I listened to Mitchell's entire statement while driving home from work and he made it very clear that his list was not exhaustive and that from his interviews there were other players who were users whom he could not identify due to lack of cooperation. Mitchell said in his statement that he spoke to trainers, but he did not specify which ones other than McNamee, whom he said he interviewed three times with LE officials, and Kirk Radomski. Until I hear that he spoke to a former Red Sox trainer as he did with McNamee the fact that he did not name someone means nada, nothing, zip, zero.

    Eric Gagne is on the list, although I think his name came from Radomski, the former Mets trainer/clubhouse attendant. Now there is an explanation for how Gagne saved 82 in a row a few years back in the NL and could not even get a 1 out save at times last year with the Red Sox, and for all of the injury issues he has had the last few years.

    The only name I heard, and I heard them all, that really surprised me was Pettite. All of the other guys they named, like Tejada, Hundley, Pratt, Ankiel, et al, were previously fingered by other players and/or Radomski. In the case of Pettite, one can assume that it was the Clemens sphere of influence that got him named.

    Two other prominent ex Yankees named were Mike Stanton and Dave Justice. Because Mitchell spoke to McNamee and no other current Yankee names were given, beyond Pettite, we actually have more evidence that A-Rod and the rest of the Yankees roster are clean than we do of any of the players you have mentioned being clean.
    Last edited by EagerBeaver; 12-13-2007 at 04:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chercherfemmes
    I won't defend the Yankees caught up in this if the evidence is strong. However I am not surprised that no Red Sox of note were named. I doubt that Mitchell tried very hard to investigate the Sox as one of the board members of the team and a lifelong fan.
    CCF,

    Based on what I heard the only prominent Red Sox mentioned are now ex Red Sox Eric Gagne and Mo Vaughn, who is long gone from MLB. Both names apparently came from Radomski.

    Based on what I heard, Mitchell did not interview any ex Red Sox trainers but he did interview an ex-Yankees trainer, Brian McNamee, who is the source of the new information.

    BTW, McNamee said that Clemens was abusing in 1998 while a member of the Blue Jays. He said he heavily injected Clemens that season when he was his personal trainer.
    Last edited by EagerBeaver; 12-13-2007 at 04:49 PM.

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    MLB To Blame

    A lot more interesting to me than the naming of players, most of whom we all knew or suspected, is the Mitchell report's criticism of MLB, the MLBPA and front office GMs throughout baseball. MLB, the MLBPA and baseball GMs all permitted a steroid culture to grow and develop culminating in the "Steroid Era." This culture's origin is traceable to the "Bash Brothers", Canseco and McGwire, the self anointed Godfather of steroids and his close disciple/protege. It was their tape measure homeruns, and bloated home run totals, that revolutionized the impact of power in the game of baseball. Instead of questioning it, MLB decided to profit off of it, promote it, sell it, and market it, and the MLBPA screamed about player's privacy rights in shooting down all drug testing proposals, and the media was captivated by all of this and was certainly complicit in promoting the great home run Derby between McGwire and Sosa in 1998. Even though a reporter found Andro in McGwire's locker, he was derided for invading McGwire's privacy and the media turned a blind eye.

    Remember MLB's "chicks dig the long ball" slogan?

    It was really Canseco, the Godfather, with his book "Juiced" that turned the tide of public opinion. Blackballed from baseball, the vengeful Canseco lashed out with a book that, despite springing from questionable motivations, largely told the truth and exposed that which needed to be exposed. Canseco, understanding his bridges with MLB had already been burned, held nothing back. Though his book was initially derided as a work of vengeance by a player with many axes to grind, insiders whispered the stories were true, and those insiders got Congress to take note.

    Bottom line, MLB cannot discipline anyone without putting itself, the MLBPA and every GM in baseball on trial as well. And the Mitchell report tacitly acknowledges this.
    Last edited by EagerBeaver; 12-13-2007 at 05:22 PM.

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    Hello all,

    The flaws in the report are probably innumerable, solid proof being the main issue. And there are a lot of circumstances that are obvious...such as the ability of users to hide what they do. I certainly do not believe that the absence of anyone means they are innocent. But to belabor the possibilities of who is yet undetected is not only frivolous but extremely unfair. As I indicated in my first post, I will try not to accuse those who cannot be connected to witness testimony or any other evidence that CANNOT BE SHOWN AND VERIFIED. While I acknowledge there are likely to be many more abusers than those named, suspicions are not facts, and to implicate someone without real evidence is worthless and dishonorable.

    I have just gone through the report which underlines the names of the accused players and often provides cancelled checks as evidence implicating them. I was able to find 79 player names, though I am sure I may have missed some. Many are very unfamliar and many are stars or superstars. Some of those I found most notable were J. Giambi, B. Bonds, G. Sheffield, M. Tejada, L. Dykstra, T. Hundley, B. Santiago, R. Velarde, D. Segui, R. White, R. Clemens, A Pettitte, J. Cust. C. Knoblauch, D. Justice,
    J. Grimsley, G. Zaun, G. Hill, M. Vaughn, D. Neagle, M. Stanton, J. Hairston Jr., K. Brown, E. Gagne, B. Donnelly, C. Allen J. Canseco, J. Grimsley, J. Guillen, G. Matthews Jr. There are a number of admissions, but much of the testimony comes from witnesses. It will take a long time to examine the real quality of the evidence and/or testimony. But in general my view is the need to take great care by Mitchell in who he has named means he did or probably did look very carefully into the validity of the sources he used.

    To Curious: the kind of position you take is distressing. You implied you feel there are so many abusers nothing should be done when you say..."what difference does it make?" In a game that is so totally wedded to statistics this kind of viewpoint seems to invalidate everything baseball is built on...hits, strikeouts, homeruns, fielding percentages, ERAs, etc..etc...etc. These stats change careers, direct the flow of money, and endow fame...and most importantly...impact the trust and devotion of the fans. This is no joke.

    The tragedy is, as is being discussed on ESPN, any sort of statistical correction is probably impossible. What fans love about baseball, aside from winning, has been permanently disfigured by the cheaters. Because the data of cheaters cannot be separated from that of honest players we are stuck with the dubious "achievements" of those we know cheated along with the shadowy deception of those who cheat but have not been caught. Despite that situation I am never going to say...oh, go along with it, "what difference does it make?" My view is not to accept something that seems incurable, but to make things better as much as possible. Otherwise it all becomes a joke.

    Never quit,

    Korbel
    Korbie: of the Boston Red Sox Nation...the NBA Champion Boston Celtics Pride...and...the New England Patriots Dynasty!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Board Stiff
    Varitek, EB, Varitek
    What about him? Where's his name in the report Stiffy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by curious
    "You mean it is very incomplete. If this report starts weeding out abusers, I am all for it."--Korbel

    The problem is, if they did that, many teams wouldn't have a enough good players to be competitive and the quality of play would fall off to the point where fans would lose interest.

    Moving to another sport, has anyone found it odd that although Tom Brady of the N.E. Patriots has been listed as "probable" for most of the NFL season due to a shoulder injury, he is having not only the best year of his career but the best year of any quarterback's career. Having an injury usually does not make a player play better.
    Hello Curious,

    Given how Belichick loves to manipulate the injury reports I don't find it "curious" at all. And, because he is a quarterback throwing on nearly every down, this would be a naturally expected situation with the game plan the Patriots have used all year. Have you seen some of the hits he has taken? Not to mention that Brady has probably sat when the offense was on the field a total of 2 minutes. So what is the surprise??? Shoulders do get sore throwing for 4,000 yards and 45 touchdowns in 13 games.

    What I also thought about during the presentation of the Mitchell report is Michael Vick. There is absolutely nothing that says he did anything wrong on the field. Now he has lost many 10s of millions of dollars, gets almost two years in prison, and his career is probably gone. He is disgraced for heinous "off the field" issues. But what will happen to MLB's cheaters who have disgraced the game on the field and betrayed the fans...likely not all that much?

    Just circumstance,

    Korbel
    Last edited by korbel; 12-13-2007 at 05:44 PM.
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    Lenny Dykstra??!!??

    Say it ain't so!

    Actually, one name I'm surprised to see NOT on the list is Mike Piazza. But what do I know?
    Last edited by Medic_565; 12-13-2007 at 05:47 PM.
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    No Mark McGwire???

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