"Oh, my goodness gracious! Of all the dramatic things, of all the dramatic things I’ve ever seen, Andy Pettitte standing right in George Steinbrenner’s box shooting a syringe into Roger Clemens' rear end!" -- Suzyn Waldman, WCBS Radio, if she had been paying closer attention
Baseball Bombshell: The Mitchell Report
- Thread starter korbel
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One thing nobody has really discussed is possible criminal prosecutions of players who were named. I have not read all of the report yet, but it seems that if there is an ambitious U.S. attorney out there who wants to prosecute the violations of federal law in the U.S., the strongest evidentiary presentations made by the Mitchell report are against Paul Lo Duca, Eric Gagne and Mo Vaughn - three knuckleheads who memorialized their interstate purchases and payments in writing and left a long paper trail. Lo Duca appears to have been the biggest moron of these three, paying for thousands of dollars worth of steroids and HGH by check, both for himself and for Gagne.
One interesting thing I read in the report is a couple of paragraphs on Tony LaRussa who is basically called a liar by Mitchell. LaRussa gave inconsistent statements to 60 minutes on national TV and to Mitchell in regards to the steroid use, or his perception of it, by Canseco and McGwire.
Nobody knows how this is going to all play out yet but in the coming weeks, as this report is further digested and reviewed, I suspect that the MLBPA will be having a lot of work to do. That's about the only thing I am sure of at this time. Players face possible criminal prosecutions, possible discipline by Selig and possible invocation of morals clauses in their contracts by their teams (something Lo Duca and Gagne in particular need to be worried about). It will be interesting to see what happens.
One interesting thing I read in the report is a couple of paragraphs on Tony LaRussa who is basically called a liar by Mitchell. LaRussa gave inconsistent statements to 60 minutes on national TV and to Mitchell in regards to the steroid use, or his perception of it, by Canseco and McGwire.
Nobody knows how this is going to all play out yet but in the coming weeks, as this report is further digested and reviewed, I suspect that the MLBPA will be having a lot of work to do. That's about the only thing I am sure of at this time. Players face possible criminal prosecutions, possible discipline by Selig and possible invocation of morals clauses in their contracts by their teams (something Lo Duca and Gagne in particular need to be worried about). It will be interesting to see what happens.
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It would make me wonder when I'd see a player come back from the off-season and he had forearms like bridge cables and had added what looked like 20 lbs of muscle.
I'd see the same kind of thing on my job. A guy would transfer to another house; I'd see him maybe 4 months later and he'd become a monster. The power lifters, especially the ones who'd compete, were upfront about it. Back then in the late 70's and early 80's there was no big deal made of it. But then, doing lines of coke in the kitchen was no big deal either.
Due to the nature of the job it's in your best interest to stay in shape but I (and 99.9% of the other guys) never had any desire in juicing. It always turned out that the bigger guys were asked to carry all the heavier gear.
The one thing that did bother me was the explosive temper these guys had. It was (and still is) disturbing and disruptive. There are guys that have hot tempers as part of their nature but it's predictable and preventable. Guys on the 'roids just explode from out of nowhere and that's the scary part.
ps. Bush is on CNN right now and fielded a Mitchell Report question with the usual political non-answer. But he is looking a little pumped-up and I'm wondering why he's doing bicep curls through-out the press conference.
I'd see the same kind of thing on my job. A guy would transfer to another house; I'd see him maybe 4 months later and he'd become a monster. The power lifters, especially the ones who'd compete, were upfront about it. Back then in the late 70's and early 80's there was no big deal made of it. But then, doing lines of coke in the kitchen was no big deal either.
Due to the nature of the job it's in your best interest to stay in shape but I (and 99.9% of the other guys) never had any desire in juicing. It always turned out that the bigger guys were asked to carry all the heavier gear.
The one thing that did bother me was the explosive temper these guys had. It was (and still is) disturbing and disruptive. There are guys that have hot tempers as part of their nature but it's predictable and preventable. Guys on the 'roids just explode from out of nowhere and that's the scary part.
ps. Bush is on CNN right now and fielded a Mitchell Report question with the usual political non-answer. But he is looking a little pumped-up and I'm wondering why he's doing bicep curls through-out the press conference.
Clemens' Temper
Speaking of temper issues, one of my best friends is an MD specializing in treatment of patients with substance abuse issues. He told me he thinks that if the Mitchell Report claims that Clemens was juicing in 2000 is correct, that Clemens may have been suffering from "Roid Rage" when he threw the bat at Mike Piazza in the 2000 World Series. At the time the incident seemed very bizarre, but now we have a possible explanation for the strange behavior of Clemens at that time.
It should be noted that the Pettitte injections of HGH in the ass occurred when he was on the DL, trying to recover from an injury. Should we distinguish between the guys who were trying to heal faster from injuries and the guys who were trying to bulk up? It seems to me that some of the behavior in the report was a little more severe than others........I am not saying we should give Pettitte a pass, but it's one thing to try to heal quicker as opposed to trying to get gigantic like Giambi.
Speaking of temper issues, one of my best friends is an MD specializing in treatment of patients with substance abuse issues. He told me he thinks that if the Mitchell Report claims that Clemens was juicing in 2000 is correct, that Clemens may have been suffering from "Roid Rage" when he threw the bat at Mike Piazza in the 2000 World Series. At the time the incident seemed very bizarre, but now we have a possible explanation for the strange behavior of Clemens at that time.
It should be noted that the Pettitte injections of HGH in the ass occurred when he was on the DL, trying to recover from an injury. Should we distinguish between the guys who were trying to heal faster from injuries and the guys who were trying to bulk up? It seems to me that some of the behavior in the report was a little more severe than others........I am not saying we should give Pettitte a pass, but it's one thing to try to heal quicker as opposed to trying to get gigantic like Giambi.
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ParChance said:
Well, we know from the report that Theo Epstein acquired Gagne with full knowledge of Gagne's steroid abuse. The question is, did Epstein acquire Gagne because of or in spite of what he learned? The Mitchell report does not tell us this.
I always wondered about rumples and btyger, would it be a stretch to say that these guys would be in the Mitchell report if they were playing ball.Medic_565 said:
Three guesses and the last two don't count, we all know that the little butt cheeking fruitcake will do anything to buy a championship, case in point this year.EagerBeaver said:
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No McGwire, no Pudge Rodriguez, no Mike Piazza, etc. From earlier years, i suspected Tim 'Rock' Raines & Brad Fullmer must have been juicing themselves. Pudge & Piazza are now shadows of what they were a few years ago. I saw Piazza this past summer when he was in Toronto with the A's and i didn't recognize him. He had shrunk!
Mitchell has only hit the tip of the iceberg with his findings. He got a long list of names by obtaining them from only a handful of people. Imagine if every clubhouse attendant, fitness guru & retired player would have had immunity from prosecution if they agreed to testify?
I'm not that surprised about Clemens. I had heard these rumours a couple of years ago. Recently, i saw a broadcast of one of the games he pitched in back in the late 80's. Totally unrecognizable! His head was also smaller...kind of reminded of what happened to Barry Bonds whose head has doubled in size over the years. I also wasn't surprised by Clemens since it's not normal that he can still pitch as good as he has in his 40's. Heck, if someone would tell me that Nolan Ryan was juiced back in the days when he pitched for Texas, i wouldn't be surprised. Back to Clemens....remember the game in the playoffs when he threw the bat at Piazza for no apparent reason? Roid rage! Now, it all makes sense. I wonder if Pete Rose ever used steroids?
Bottom line, my take on it is that HGH is much more commonly used than steroids since presently, MLB isn't testing them. HGH IS the problem....not really steroids anymore.
Mitchell has only hit the tip of the iceberg with his findings. He got a long list of names by obtaining them from only a handful of people. Imagine if every clubhouse attendant, fitness guru & retired player would have had immunity from prosecution if they agreed to testify?
I'm not that surprised about Clemens. I had heard these rumours a couple of years ago. Recently, i saw a broadcast of one of the games he pitched in back in the late 80's. Totally unrecognizable! His head was also smaller...kind of reminded of what happened to Barry Bonds whose head has doubled in size over the years. I also wasn't surprised by Clemens since it's not normal that he can still pitch as good as he has in his 40's. Heck, if someone would tell me that Nolan Ryan was juiced back in the days when he pitched for Texas, i wouldn't be surprised. Back to Clemens....remember the game in the playoffs when he threw the bat at Piazza for no apparent reason? Roid rage! Now, it all makes sense. I wonder if Pete Rose ever used steroids?
Bottom line, my take on it is that HGH is much more commonly used than steroids since presently, MLB isn't testing them. HGH IS the problem....not really steroids anymore.
So I guess that would explain John Rocker's seemingly endless series of incidents. That, and the fact that he may be an a**hole anyway.
Medic_565 said:
Exactly. Other names come to mind...Rod Dibble for one....remember his fight with Lou Piniella in the Reds clubhouse that was shown on tv? Heck, maybe even Piniella was juicing up as a manager back in those days. The tantrums he threw as manager of the Reds, Mariners & D-Rays were totally out of the ordinary....if not the roids, he must have a few screws loose inside his head & in great need of anger management therapy.
I'm inclined to give Pettitte a pass on this for the reasons you mention, but wonder if he could or could not have gotten a prescription.EagerBeaver said:
This makes little sense, Beav, and, I must confess that, at first, I thought it had been posted by a certain fucking moron. If anything, Going-going-Gagne's past steroid use should have given Epstein reason to pause at the acquisition. The answer is clearly "in spite of."EagerBeaver said:
Rob. Dibble, by the way, was a member of the most successful team in baseball history. The Vermont Reds, AA affiliate of Cincinnati, existed for only three years, 1984-86. They were league champions every year of their existence. Dibble was a member of the '86 club. In 1987, the affiliation switched to Seattle and featured a young Junior Griffey for the last six weeks of the season, those weeks the end of Griffey's minor league career. After the 1987 season, the scumbag who owned the team moved the franchise to Ohio.Doc Holliday said:
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Doc,
In regard to Lou Pinella; my guess is that his tantrums were/are the result of a naturally short fuse with a fair dose of showmanship thrown in. But look at this picture and you just may have a case that could stand up in court.
http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2005/writers/jay_mohr/08/10/hot.read/p1_piniella.jpg
While we're at it, let's throw in Leo Durocher, Earl Weaver, and Casey Stengel
In regard to Lou Pinella; my guess is that his tantrums were/are the result of a naturally short fuse with a fair dose of showmanship thrown in. But look at this picture and you just may have a case that could stand up in court.
http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2005/writers/jay_mohr/08/10/hot.read/p1_piniella.jpg
While we're at it, let's throw in Leo Durocher, Earl Weaver, and Casey Stengel
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Curious,
I refuse to see SPs who enhance their breasts. That is mainly due to cosmetic reasons, I will admit. But I also believe that SPs should not be enhancing their boobies and putting fake shit in their bodies, any more than major league baseball players who soup up their bodies.
I don't use Viagara or any sexual performance aid, although I have noticed a decrease in my own virility and sexual performance in the last 6-7 years (mainly, in the achievable number of SOGs), which I attribute to (1) the natural aging process; and (2) being out of shape, moreso now than a few years ago. I can only do something about the latter, but it will only be through exercise, diet, and legal vitamins and nutrients.
I refuse to see SPs who enhance their breasts. That is mainly due to cosmetic reasons, I will admit. But I also believe that SPs should not be enhancing their boobies and putting fake shit in their bodies, any more than major league baseball players who soup up their bodies.
I don't use Viagara or any sexual performance aid, although I have noticed a decrease in my own virility and sexual performance in the last 6-7 years (mainly, in the achievable number of SOGs), which I attribute to (1) the natural aging process; and (2) being out of shape, moreso now than a few years ago. I can only do something about the latter, but it will only be through exercise, diet, and legal vitamins and nutrients.
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Probably the greatest tactician in the history of the game, Casey does not belong in the group above. He was never known for his temper. Two names that you might want to add to this list, however, would be Billy Martin and John McGraw.Medic_565 said:While we're at it, let's throw in Leo Durocher, Earl Weaver, and Casey Stengel
Lou Piniella
Lou Piniella was fiery as a player, and he was also one of the smartest players I have ever seen. In the 1978 playoff game against the Red Sox Piniella made one of the greatest dekes in baseball history which preserved the win for the Yankees. He was in right field and Jim Rice (I think) hit a soft line drive which Piniella lost in the sun. Piniella, not having a clue where the ball was, pounded his glove like he had a bead on it, which deked Jerry Remy (I think) into holding up and not going from first to third. Piniella fielded the ball on one hop, largely by accident (he appeared to see it only after it hit the ground). As a result the potential tying run never scored and the Yankees won the game, 5-4, on the strength of a Reggie Jackson homer which was actually more important than the Dent homer earlier in the game.
How many of the knuckleheads playing today would ever think to make a play like that under intense pressure, not knowing where the ball was?
Lou Piniella was fiery as a player, and he was also one of the smartest players I have ever seen. In the 1978 playoff game against the Red Sox Piniella made one of the greatest dekes in baseball history which preserved the win for the Yankees. He was in right field and Jim Rice (I think) hit a soft line drive which Piniella lost in the sun. Piniella, not having a clue where the ball was, pounded his glove like he had a bead on it, which deked Jerry Remy (I think) into holding up and not going from first to third. Piniella fielded the ball on one hop, largely by accident (he appeared to see it only after it hit the ground). As a result the potential tying run never scored and the Yankees won the game, 5-4, on the strength of a Reggie Jackson homer which was actually more important than the Dent homer earlier in the game.
How many of the knuckleheads playing today would ever think to make a play like that under intense pressure, not knowing where the ball was?
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Note: this is the first time "smart" and "Lou Piniella" have ever appeared in the same sentence, either on line or in print.EagerBeaver said:
Heady, sure. Fiery, sure. Hot-headed, sure. Smart? Have you ever heard him speak?
Rumples,
Pete Rose was also a major butcher of the English language, but a smart player. I am not talking about the linguistic ability, but the ability to think the game of baseball.
The play Piniella made in the '78 playoff game speaks for itself.
Pete Rose was also a major butcher of the English language, but a smart player. I am not talking about the linguistic ability, but the ability to think the game of baseball.
The play Piniella made in the '78 playoff game speaks for itself.
That kind of decoy play happens more than once every game. Outfielders, infielders, pitchers, catchers. Hell, Manny does it all the time in left field and you won't find me calling him a smart player.EagerBeaver said:
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