It's hard to look past France and Belgium at the moment for the '20 Euro; but I think this may have been Croatia's last chance, at least for this generation ....
2018 FIFA World Cup
- Thread starter DalilaD
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It's hard to look past France and Belgium at the moment for the '20 Euro; but I think this may have been Croatia's last chance, at least for this generation ....
What about 2026. Soccer is growing in the united states pretty much over all other sports. Will there be enough time for a first USA WC winner?
... hmm, well .... being better than Panama might be a good place to start.
Key striker Kalinic not being there for Croatia was a big no! no!....That is entirely on Croatia's coach Dalic shoulders.
Miscommunication/pre-selection, determining the role of a player should have been discussed before the tournament started between player and coach...not after or worse during a game in the case of Dalic and Kalinic!
Totally inexcusable for Dalic....huge mistake that probably came back to bite him and cost him the WC!!!
That was the difference between Dalic and Deschamps! Deschamps did not act as a dictator and as a former player he knew what it took to be a player's coach and get the player's to believe in him!
Miscommunication/pre-selection, determining the role of a player should have been discussed before the tournament started between player and coach...not after or worse during a game in the case of Dalic and Kalinic!
Totally inexcusable for Dalic....huge mistake that probably came back to bite him and cost him the WC!!!
That was the difference between Dalic and Deschamps! Deschamps did not act as a dictator and as a former player he knew what it took to be a player's coach and get the player's to believe in him!
Europe right now is France and Belgium...it's not hard to figure out!
We'll see what happens in 2 years!
We'll see what happens in 2 years!
The way the big Europran powers (Spain, Germany and France) have mass-industrialized football production of young players, it's gonna be even harder in the future for small countries like Croatia to win the WC/Euro ....
key striker Kalinic not being there for Croatia was a big no! no!....That is entirely on Croatia's coach Dalic shoulders.
Miscommunication/pre-selection, determining the role of a player should have been discussed before the tournament started between player and coach...not after or worse during a game in the case of Dalic and Kalinic!
Totally inexcusable for Dalic....huge mistake that probably came back to bite him and cost him the world cup!!!
That was the difference between Dalic and Deschamps! Deschamps did not act as a dictator and as a former player he knew what it took to be a player's coach!
A little too harsh on the Croatian coach? After all, his team came back from behind in all of the elimination games. That showed character. I think for today's final, it just came down to too much talent and firepower on the French side -- even with Kalinic in the lineup.
The way the big Europran powers (Spain, Germany and France) have mass-industrialized football production of young players, it's gonna be even harder in the future for small countries like Croatia to win the WC/Euro ....
However, the smaller countries that are close by geographically, e.g. Belgium, Holland, Portugal also have a good shot at winning the Euro/WC. After all, Portugal is the defending Euro champ having defeated France a couple years ago.
Let’s not forget Kalinic refused to enter a game. No coach can permit such a blatant act of insubordination and maintain leadership authority and credibility with the team. I can see you guys have not coached sports. I actually have and when you tell a player what they have to do, they have to obey you. It’s not a debate. Players do not get to determine how and when and what position they play. You are the manager or coach and they are the player. You lose a team quick if you tolerate this type of behavior. Inmates cannot run the asylum!
Let’s not forget Kalinic refused to enter a game. No coach can permit such a blatant act of insubordination and maintain leadership authority and credibility with the team. I can see you guys have not coached sports. I actually have and when you tell a player what they have to do, they have to obey you. It’s not a debate. Players do not get to determine how and when and what position they play. You are the manager or coach and they are the player. You lose a team quick if you tolerate this type of behavior. Inmates cannot run the asylum!
Like I said in Post # 812, screen your players before selecting them...communicate with them...define their role. It did not happen and Croatia got burned!...
No such issues with the "Little Napoleon" and France!...Alllez les Bleus!
... hmm, well .... being better than Panama might be a good place to start.
Love it! Ever since the US fired coach Klinsmann - yes, the great Jurgen Klinsmann that brought the US in the round of 16 in the 2014 WC and a former WC champion for Germany in 1990 - the US has been going south fast!....a rudderless ship headed for Panana!
Like I said in Post # 812, screen your players before selecting them...communicate with them...define their role. It did not happen and Croatia got burned!...
No such issues with the "Little Napoleon" and France!...Alllez les Bleus!
quite true indeed. it took deschamps some guts to leave out benzema and go for such a young squad. but still leave giroux in. he did not scored but was still a key player such as kante was.
DesChamps Press Conference Invaded By Players
Look at this, Deschamps press conference was invaded by the French players who doused him with champagne and sang to him in French. What are those guys singing, can one of the French guys offer a translation of this?
https://www.foxsports.com/soccer/video/1277424707898
Clearly the French team loves their coach!
Look at this, Deschamps press conference was invaded by the French players who doused him with champagne and sang to him in French. What are those guys singing, can one of the French guys offer a translation of this?
https://www.foxsports.com/soccer/video/1277424707898
Clearly the French team loves their coach!
Unanswered Questions
Before we bid adieu to this thread there still remains unanswered questions.
I went back and watched all goals:https://www.foxsports.com/soccer/video/1277934147766
(1) Was the Mandzucic own goal going to be a saveable shot anyway? Looks to me like no, it was going in if he did not touch it.
(2) Were the Pogba and Mbappe goals "soft goals" as claimed by the Croatian manager? It looked to me like they were hard shots, and the goalie was wrongfooted by Pogba although I couldn't see what Pogba did that should have wrongfooted him. Mbappe goal a very hard shot.
(3) Regarding the Mandzucic handball, should a penalty kick have been awarded or was it "harsh" to do so, as claimed by the Croatian Manager? It seems that from the rules below, the intent is the key. It did not seem like Perisic did other than let the ball accidentally glance off his arm, which seems like a "not awardable" offense. However the rule states, "however, if a player’s arm is in an unnatural position, for example outstretched or above their head, then a foul should be awarded whether accidental or not." I think this is where Perisic got pinched - he flailed his arms which created the accidental contact. Refs got it right.
I copied the FIFA relevant rules:
Definition
A handball occurs if any player, other than the team’s goalkeeper within his own penalty area, deliberately handles the ball when in play. A ball can be handled with any part of the arm, from the tips of a player’s fingers right up to the shoulder.
Cautionable Offense
A handball should result in a yellow card caution if a player handles the ball for the purpose of deliberately preventing an opponent from getting possession of the ball. The resulting restart to play should be a direct free kick from the spot at which the infringement was committed for the non-offending side. If this occurs inside the penalty area, a penalty should be awarded.
Sending Off Offense
A handball becomes a sending off offense when a player is judged to have handled the ball to prevent a direct scoring opportunity such as a shot on an empty goal, or to have prevented a move that might have resulted in a direct scoring opportunity such as a breakaway. The infringing player should be given a straight red card and a direct free kick taken from the spot of the infringement. If this occurs inside the penalty area, a penalty should be awarded.
Not Awardable
A handball should not be awarded if a player is ruled to have handled the ball accidentally. This refers to a player either attempting to protect himself from injury, for example by placing the hands in front of the face and then being hit by the ball, or a player being hit on the arm by the ball without moving towards the ball and without being able to move out of the way. An example might be a snap shot hitting the arm of a defender at point-blank range. However, if a player’s arm is in an unnatural position, for example outstretched or above their head, then a foul should be awarded whether accidental or not.
Finally-
(4) Modric claimed that the statistical outplaying of France, territorially, essentially entitled Croatia to a "moral victory." Should the "moral victory" be awarded? I note possession Croatia 61-39% and shots 15-8 Croatia, but shots on goal 6-3 France. I say no moral victory should be awarded.
Before we bid adieu to this thread there still remains unanswered questions.
I went back and watched all goals:https://www.foxsports.com/soccer/video/1277934147766
(1) Was the Mandzucic own goal going to be a saveable shot anyway? Looks to me like no, it was going in if he did not touch it.
(2) Were the Pogba and Mbappe goals "soft goals" as claimed by the Croatian manager? It looked to me like they were hard shots, and the goalie was wrongfooted by Pogba although I couldn't see what Pogba did that should have wrongfooted him. Mbappe goal a very hard shot.
(3) Regarding the Mandzucic handball, should a penalty kick have been awarded or was it "harsh" to do so, as claimed by the Croatian Manager? It seems that from the rules below, the intent is the key. It did not seem like Perisic did other than let the ball accidentally glance off his arm, which seems like a "not awardable" offense. However the rule states, "however, if a player’s arm is in an unnatural position, for example outstretched or above their head, then a foul should be awarded whether accidental or not." I think this is where Perisic got pinched - he flailed his arms which created the accidental contact. Refs got it right.
I copied the FIFA relevant rules:
Definition
A handball occurs if any player, other than the team’s goalkeeper within his own penalty area, deliberately handles the ball when in play. A ball can be handled with any part of the arm, from the tips of a player’s fingers right up to the shoulder.
Cautionable Offense
A handball should result in a yellow card caution if a player handles the ball for the purpose of deliberately preventing an opponent from getting possession of the ball. The resulting restart to play should be a direct free kick from the spot at which the infringement was committed for the non-offending side. If this occurs inside the penalty area, a penalty should be awarded.
Sending Off Offense
A handball becomes a sending off offense when a player is judged to have handled the ball to prevent a direct scoring opportunity such as a shot on an empty goal, or to have prevented a move that might have resulted in a direct scoring opportunity such as a breakaway. The infringing player should be given a straight red card and a direct free kick taken from the spot of the infringement. If this occurs inside the penalty area, a penalty should be awarded.
Not Awardable
A handball should not be awarded if a player is ruled to have handled the ball accidentally. This refers to a player either attempting to protect himself from injury, for example by placing the hands in front of the face and then being hit by the ball, or a player being hit on the arm by the ball without moving towards the ball and without being able to move out of the way. An example might be a snap shot hitting the arm of a defender at point-blank range. However, if a player’s arm is in an unnatural position, for example outstretched or above their head, then a foul should be awarded whether accidental or not.
Finally-
(4) Modric claimed that the statistical outplaying of France, territorially, essentially entitled Croatia to a "moral victory." Should the "moral victory" be awarded? I note possession Croatia 61-39% and shots 15-8 Croatia, but shots on goal 6-3 France. I say no moral victory should be awarded.
Sam21, one of my coworkers who coaches boys soccer told me he coaches them when they jump in the air in the penalty box area especially, he tells them to put their arms behind the back lest they be called for the penalty Perisic got called for. He agrees it was the right call and he can now reinforce what he is coaching to his youths.
Whatever we may think, the controversy regarding the penalty underscores a structural problem with soccer: that such low-scoring affairs, generally, extend and often turn on the importance of a referee's decisions beyond those of other major team sports.
However we may interpret the Perisic handball, VAR is only supposed to be used to overturn a "clear and obvious error," which is not the case here as there is too much ambiguity as to what constitutes Perisic's supposed "unnatural hand movement."
Similarly, the decision to award the free kick to Greizmann that lead to the first goal is also highly questionable, as it looks, in retrospect, like Greizmann dived to get that call ....
The game turned on both these matters, dubious calls made especially important because Croatia had been outplaying France throughout most of this time.
However we may interpret the Perisic handball, VAR is only supposed to be used to overturn a "clear and obvious error," which is not the case here as there is too much ambiguity as to what constitutes Perisic's supposed "unnatural hand movement."
Similarly, the decision to award the free kick to Greizmann that lead to the first goal is also highly questionable, as it looks, in retrospect, like Greizmann dived to get that call ....
The game turned on both these matters, dubious calls made especially important because Croatia had been outplaying France throughout most of this time.
Meta,
I agree with your point that the Perisic handball controversy points to a structural problem with soccer which is in part due to soccer being such a low scoring affair decided often on one goal. I have long believed that an international change on the size of the nets, expanding the width of them, might promote more goal scoring. Perhaps the playing field can be made larger as well. And the ball could be made smaller and lighter and springier. Major League Baseball has been accused of tampering with baseballs in this fashion to stimulate home run totals. While home runs are up in baseball, so are strikeouts, and batting averages have plunged well below MLB norms, this in part due to guys swinging for the fences. In case you didn’t already know, I have been fascinated by statistical analysis of all sports. In another life I would be working for MLB in their stats department.
Even though other sports are higher scoring, however, they are so competitive that important games often come down to a referee’s call or coaching decision that swings the game. How many NFL games do we see decided by field goals, or poor clock management resulting in loss of timeouts and no FG getting attempted? Video replay has intruded into all the sports. The other day Yankees manager Aaron Boone was ejected for arguing that Giancarlo Stanton, on a swinging strike 3, had fouled the ball off. Replays showed the ball hit him in the hand, but didn’t touch the bat. Because Stanton swung and missed on a ball that hit him, he was struck out. It’s very weird but it does sometimes happen that baseball players will swing and miss at a pitch that suddenly tails in and hits them. The strikeout supersedes the HBP if the player swings before the ball contacts him. After watching the VAR Boone admitted the umpires were right and that he was in essence ejected for arguing the wrong call on the play.
I agree that the soccer rule led to a harsh result for Croatia, but the rule was correctly applied as it is written.
I agree with your point that the Perisic handball controversy points to a structural problem with soccer which is in part due to soccer being such a low scoring affair decided often on one goal. I have long believed that an international change on the size of the nets, expanding the width of them, might promote more goal scoring. Perhaps the playing field can be made larger as well. And the ball could be made smaller and lighter and springier. Major League Baseball has been accused of tampering with baseballs in this fashion to stimulate home run totals. While home runs are up in baseball, so are strikeouts, and batting averages have plunged well below MLB norms, this in part due to guys swinging for the fences. In case you didn’t already know, I have been fascinated by statistical analysis of all sports. In another life I would be working for MLB in their stats department.
Even though other sports are higher scoring, however, they are so competitive that important games often come down to a referee’s call or coaching decision that swings the game. How many NFL games do we see decided by field goals, or poor clock management resulting in loss of timeouts and no FG getting attempted? Video replay has intruded into all the sports. The other day Yankees manager Aaron Boone was ejected for arguing that Giancarlo Stanton, on a swinging strike 3, had fouled the ball off. Replays showed the ball hit him in the hand, but didn’t touch the bat. Because Stanton swung and missed on a ball that hit him, he was struck out. It’s very weird but it does sometimes happen that baseball players will swing and miss at a pitch that suddenly tails in and hits them. The strikeout supersedes the HBP if the player swings before the ball contacts him. After watching the VAR Boone admitted the umpires were right and that he was in essence ejected for arguing the wrong call on the play.
I agree that the soccer rule led to a harsh result for Croatia, but the rule was correctly applied as it is written.
Sam21,
Any way you slice it, any rule change that promotes goal scoring will make goalies look bad. There is no way around that, except that eventually a new normal is established and goalies will be judged by the new normal. Whereas now a goalie is terrible if he allows 2 goals a game, a GAA of 3.5, under new rules, might very well be spectacular.
In the hockey threads I posted a similar suggestion on expanding net width and the complaint with that suggestion was that goalies would have to be retrained and disregard the training they received. I don't buy that response, because if the change is made league or world wide as of a date certain, everybody starts at the same time with the same new rule, and nobody has an unfair advantage. They all have to retrain from the same point in time. As long as the rule change is uniform and sweeping, everyone starts anew.
Toying with the ball is another possibility I mentioned. Soccer balls can be juiced so they travel faster off the foot, just like baseballs can be juiced to explode off the baseball bat. A few years ago there was a controversy in the NFL over Tom Brady having overly inflated footballs in such a way that they could be thrown more easily. Probably the same kind of manipulations can be done to soccer balls so they travel faster or can be more easily bent or kicked to curve on a path beyond the goalie's reach.
Any way you slice it, any rule change that promotes goal scoring will make goalies look bad. There is no way around that, except that eventually a new normal is established and goalies will be judged by the new normal. Whereas now a goalie is terrible if he allows 2 goals a game, a GAA of 3.5, under new rules, might very well be spectacular.
In the hockey threads I posted a similar suggestion on expanding net width and the complaint with that suggestion was that goalies would have to be retrained and disregard the training they received. I don't buy that response, because if the change is made league or world wide as of a date certain, everybody starts at the same time with the same new rule, and nobody has an unfair advantage. They all have to retrain from the same point in time. As long as the rule change is uniform and sweeping, everyone starts anew.
Toying with the ball is another possibility I mentioned. Soccer balls can be juiced so they travel faster off the foot, just like baseballs can be juiced to explode off the baseball bat. A few years ago there was a controversy in the NFL over Tom Brady having overly inflated footballs in such a way that they could be thrown more easily. Probably the same kind of manipulations can be done to soccer balls so they travel faster or can be more easily bent or kicked to curve on a path beyond the goalie's reach.
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