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Hamas & Israel

May 16, 2016
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October 7 is a staged movie; Holocaust is a myth. We heard this before. I know what sort of people are saying this. Any rational discussion with such people is impossible. Thus, Israel has the ability and the will to defend itself.
I never said October 7th is a movie. I said it was not unprovoked.

I never said the Holocaust/Shoa is a myth. I believe the exact opposite... It's the whole reason why the only thing that needs to cease is this racist, suppremasisist, narcissistic and psychopathic way of thinking that leads to the elimination of a whole people.

You go man! Only Israel has the right to "defend" itself against Gaza, the West Bank, Lebanon, Syria, Yemen, Iran ... So rational
 
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wiinston17

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So no. Again, October 7 is not unprovoked.

October 7 is a staged movie; Holocaust is a myth. We heard this before. I know what sort of people are saying this. Any rational discussion with such people is impossible. Thus, Israel has the ability and the will to defend itself.
I never understood this logic. As you rightly put it, "Any rational discussion with such people is impossible" because this argument is deeply flawed. If I were to assert that because the U.S. committed war crimes in Vietnam, Pearl Harbor was therefore not an unprovoked attack. Do you see how incoherent that sounds?

The Nazi holocaust and October 7th are completely separate events, and @Inglorious Bastard didn't insinuate it otherwise. Israel, officially, didn't even exist back in 1939-1945. Any attempt to conflate the Nazi holocaust and October 7th (including the events that led up to it) is disingenuous at best and contributing to actual anti-semitism. If you truly care about anti-semitism, don't numb people to being labelled as one, by using the term to defend every action of a country, just because it calls itself the Jewish state.

Most importantly, the Palestinians had nothing to do with the Nazi holocaust, that was the Europeans, especially considering how much they wanted the Jews out of Europe.

But given that it's been almost 22 months Israel's right and actual carrying said "self-defense", the likehood of either of us changing our minds is unlikely. Nonetheless, I hope you find it in yourself to humanize Palestinians, because the amount of people incapable of feeling compassion, empathy and, at this point, even pity for children dying of hunger who have done absolutely nothing wrong... is heartbreaking.
 
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minutemenX

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I never understood this logic.
This is the twisted and selectively applied logic. How many American civilians were killed by the Japanese during WWII? Practically none. How many Japanese civilians were killed by the US bombing raids including atomic bombs? Almost 1 M. Was the general objective of the US military to kill as many civilians as possible? Not at all. The objective was to win the war. Would the US abstain from widespread bombing if Japanese had surrendered earlier? I believe no question, they would.

Israel is waging openly declared war against Hamas. I consider it a just war with the objective to eliminate Hamas. Can the objective be reached without civilian casualties or by minimizing them below the current level? I do not know how any military can do it in the urban combat with the enemy hiding in tunnels and behind civilians. If anybody knows how to win this war without civilian casualties or have historical examples, you are welcome to suggest. The only non-negotiable part is not winning. This Israel can not afford.
 
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Halloween Mike

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Down the line there will always be one simple fact ... If Hamas surrender and free the hostage, the war would be over.

I know some of you who are anti-Israel consider it "illegal" or "occupation" yada yada but that is simply not true. There was the partition, then Israel was attacked and won the war.

The goal of the peoples like Hamas is declared and not subtile, its to eradicate the Jews wich they see as a "cancer" of some sorts to their Islam. Every single person who chant "from the river to the sea" litterally is chanting for the genocide of the Jews, the destruction of Israel. Granted some can't even name either the river or the sea, a lot are just young "activists" perpetuating their "eternal cause" and likely just moved from another one before 2023.

The funniest thing i see is when peoples say Gaza was an "open air prison". The security measures that were put in place were simply that... SECURITY. And they were obviously not enough. Imagine if Gaza had control of the sea, the air space ... October 7 wouldn't had been 1200 deaths but 10 000, maybe more. I don't think prisons have cafés, market, phones, and litterally some peoples in Gaza had a lavish lifestyle.

Otherwise, i don't know how else to put it. I see Hamas on the same level as the worst of ISIS. I have no pity or concern for them. They are evil monsters rotten to the core. They don't even care that because of THEIR actions, young children dies and their region been shredded to rubbles. Quite frankly i am sorry to say it like that but i don't think any "2 states solution" could ever work. There is an hatred that is too deeply rooted. And the biggest difference between Israel and the Islamists... Israel value life. They don't want to die. Every soldier who has fallen since the war started is a tragedy. While on the Hamas side, they just call them "martyr" and are willing to send as many as there is to the meatgrinder. For them "dying for the cause" is an honor and they are sure they gonna get virgins in heaven...

What bothers me the most is lots of peoples militating for "Palestine" do not even look at the Russia-Ukraine war. They don't even condemn Russia. You think Israel is brutal with their prisoners, go inform yourself on the Russian prisons and the threatment of Ukrainians. And not just soldiers, even civilians.

Honestly i am tired ... i won't lie. I wish this damn war (well both of them) could be over. But even if it would... there will always be islamists terrorism ... and thats a really concerning reality. There was terrorists attacks before Oct 7, and there will be once the war is over.

Unless major developements (like an actual end to the war) i think i will simply stop posting in this thread from now on. Its obvious i won't make peoples like Inglorious Bastard or Anna Bijou change point of view, and its obvious they will not change mine either. So it feel like a waste of time.
 
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CaptRenault

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One constantly hears the words "occupation," "famine" and "genocide" in propaganda attacks made against Israel by Hamas apologists. French philosopher Bernard Henri Levy counters those arguments in a short column in the Wall Street Journal:


Foolish notions about Israel are being repeated morning and night. Relayed by high international authorities. Validated by respectable organizations, among them Action Against Hunger, which I helped found. They are echoed by one of my friends, the Israeli author David Grossman, who 30 years ago helped me launch La Règle du Jeu, a journal that supports every struggle for freedom. Yet they remain foolish notions. Three examples:

Israel is “reoccupying” Gaza. True, two ministers in Benjamin Netanyahu’s government have said, without shame, that they dream of doing so. But this isn’t the strategy of the Israel Defense Forces or the position of the government. Whether one likes Mr. Netanyahu or not, the least one can do is listen.

On Fox News, on Aug. 7, he said he wants the IDF to drive out Hamas and take control of Gaza—but “without administering it” and handing it over to a “civil government” as soon as possible. “We do not want to keep Gaza, we do not want to govern Gaza.”

How could he be clearer? How could he better say that his war aims don’t contradict those of Ariel Sharon, who left the Palestinian enclave in 2005?

One can be horrified by this war. One can find that it causes, on both sides, far too many victims. One can wonder if everything is being done to bring back the hostages. But one can’t say just anything. One can’t keep repeating, ad nauseam, in a perpetual “J’accuse!” tone that Israel is occupying Gaza.

Israel is using famine as a “weapon of war” in Gaza. Look at the hundreds of trucks that have passed inspection, with Israelis ensuring they are not also carrying weapons. These trucks don’t wait at border crossings. They wait inside Gaza. And then what happens?

At one point, the United Nations agencies charged with aid distribution couldn’t prevent them from being looted by Hamas or gangs linked to it. Then Israel, with the U.S., set up the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation, to which the U.N. agencies replied: No thanks, the starving can wait, we won’t touch that bread, we will not collaborate with those people. Then Israel agreed to work with the official agencies if they purged their ranks of Hamas activists. The agencies replied that Gaza was too dangerous.

Then Israel offered to open humanitarian corridors 10 hours a day in areas including Al-Mawasi, Deir al-Balah and Gaza City. The agencies demanded Israeli military convoys, even as they accused the Israeli military of engineering a famine.

Who, honestly, must be blamed for this tragic failure? And who will break this vicious circle of bad faith, in which, as usual, civilians pay the price?

Israel is committing “genocide” in Gaza. True, there are pyramids of the dead. Children killed in the flower of their age. And not enough pressure on Hamas and its sponsors to stop this atrocious war. But words have meaning.

To say “genocide” means a plan—a deliberate, targeted initiative to destroy a people. That isn’t what the Israeli army is doing. Perhaps it is waging the war badly—though who would do better in an asymmetric conflict when the enemy’s goal isn’t to minimize casualties on its own side but to maximize them, so that every martyr is a trophy and a reason to continue a fight whose aim is not a state for the Palestinians, but no state at all for the Israelis?

A genocidal army doesn’t take two years to win a war in a territory the size of Las Vegas. A genocidal army doesn’t send SMS warnings before firing or facilitate the passage of those trying to escape the strikes. A genocidal army wouldn’t evacuate, every month, hundreds of Palestinian children suffering from rare diseases or cancer, sending them to hospitals in Abu Dhabi as part of a medical airlift set up right after Oct. 7.

To speak of genocide in Gaza is an offense to common sense, a maneuver to demonize Israel, and an insult to the victims of genocides past and present.
 
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