13 year old missing girl found in older man's hotel room

[korbel]

Hello Korbel-
Whether or not one thinks that 14 years olds (or 15, 16, or 17 year olds) should be having sex with others in high school or not (I think they should and it's messy and they don't understand it, but that's fine and normal, and I hope they use protection), surely you are not suggesting that such behavior should be punished criminally. Do you think that the senior in high school (18) who beds the freshman (14) should be subject to criminal penalties? Are you aware of the case in Georgia where a 14 yr old white freshman girl knowingly and willingly performed oral sex on a black senior? He was charged with rape and sentenced to 10 years, and actually had to serve 2-3 of them before finally being released because of the outrage in the entire state.

We may not think our adolescent children are ready for this pile of physical and emotional trauma-in-the-making that we call sex, but they will get into it, just as we did: clumsily, stupidly, awkwardly, and occasionally joyfully. I just hope for more of the latter for my 12 year old in a few years.

Hello Urbanite,

It seems these days that teens of practically every age are having sex willingly. In my position I hear of it and see the results of it all the time. Many in society say, well, what can you do. As teens we were dying to have it, as adults we know we weren't mature enough to handle it. So we sometimes make excuses because we know we were once the same. Well, that's bullshit. At that age we weren't ready either, and just because it's mutally consensual doesn't make it right. If it is right, then why not legally allow 14 year olds to drive, drink, have credit card accounts, own guns, and many other things currently limited to adults. Certainly none of these are beyond their understanding. Because all of these require emotional and rational maturity that teens generally don't have. And despite the fact that many adults are also lacking, there has to be some reasonable reference point such as the age of 18 where most people can fairly be expected to be able to deal with adult resposibility rationally. At 14 it is only a very rare person who could be ready to deal well with any of these.

So what do I think about the 18 year senior who was put in jail for having consensual sex with a 14 year old? I say it's about time someone prosecuted people like this. Look, if it was frivolous sex then he could have gotten that from an adult. He sure didn't have to do it with a 14 year old willing or not. If he was in love then I have this to say. I know a guy who was 22 when he met a 14 year old he said he was in love with. He told her parents and they said, if that is true then wait until she is 17 and more mature, then you can marry her. He waited and they have been happily married since. That is how one acts like a man...as an adult with honor instead of being just an animal. It sure isn't mature or right to fuck just because you can fuck. Dogs fuck...cats fuck...many animals fuck. Just because some 14 year old said yes doesn't mean an adult was then not responsible for acting like and adult. I know of younger girls who have said yes. Do you still say, "oh, it was consensual?" Maybe the sentence was too much in this case, but he knew what was right and he didn't make the right choice. I would have pressed charges if I was the parent.

sincerely,

Korbel

 

[Kepler]

Devil's advocate here.

When I was in 7th grade (~14 years old), I clearly remember wanting to sleep with one of my ~25 year old teachers. I was plenty old enough to understand what sex was and that I wanted it. I doubt I would have been traumatized if I'd done it. Many in my high school had had sex before 16.

Fourteen year olds are not eight year olds: at 14 you know what sex is. If I had a 14 year old daughter I wouldn't want her sleeping with a 50 year old. But if she did, I don't think it should be an issue for the criminal justice system.


For the record: if you have a desire to sleep with kids you should seek help before you get sent to jail.

As teens we were dying to have it, as adults we know we weren't mature enough to handle it. Just because it's consensual doesn't make it right. If it is right, then why not legally allow 14 year olds to drive, drink, have credit card accounts, own guns, and many other things currently limited to adults.

I had sex as a teen and was mature enough to handle it. Most people I know also fall in this category. And by the way, I drove (legally) at 15, had no problem drinking reasonably and going out to clubs when I was 16, had a credit card at 16, and have known people who've gone hunting well before 16.

 

[eastender]

The Issue(s)

The seminal post was not about activities confined within the context of two teenagers having a relationship rather it was about a relationship between a first year teen and someone a generation older many time zones away.

The problems exhibited by some teens during the maturation process or the ability of other teens to handle the maturation process is not the issue. Regardless of the awkwardness, at no point has anyone described the behavior of teens trying to cope with their youth as predators.

The issue is rather basic - how do you keep predators away from the victims that they target? Specifically within the framework of this discussion how do you keep adult predators away from teens.

 

[Tracy]

I second keplers post. I was doing things "reserved for adults" way before I was "supposed" to be able to handle it. I may not be normal, but I think I turned out ok. Although, every single on of my present close friends stayed at home until their 20's (to me that is very weird) maybe not everyone is meant to be able to handle choices about sex or other "grown up" things, but at 13 I had a boyfriend whom I was very much "in love" with and he was 21. At 16 I was in a relationship with a 36 year old man and was at least smart enough to make the choice for an abortion. But hey, lots of people think that they can put an age on maturity.... If I had a dollar for everytime I was told that was too mature for my 22 years, I would not be an escort now would I ?

Back to the news article. I noticed that the police interviewed (montreal gazette, today) made the remark that this young 13 year old was "in love" with her "captor" and was very upset when the police showed up at the door. Is it not a possibility that maybe at the same time she may have portrayed herself to be of legal consenting age? Believe me I was 18 for 3 years consecutively and any client who has recognised me from six years ago and now knows my real age, they deny that they ever saw me.... but I am not too damaged and do not see myself as a victim of my customers.

 

[korbel]

I had sex as a teen and was mature enough to handle it. Most people I know also fall in this category. And by the way, I drove (legally) at 15, had no problem drinking reasonably and going out to clubs when I was 16, had a credit card at 16, and have known people who've gone hunting well before 16.

Hello Kepler,

I don't know you at all, but I doubt it. Of course you have not defined what "handle it" means. Most kids I knew and know at this age basically treat each other (opposite sex, significant other ) as a piece of ass. I don't call that handling it.

Not quite,

Korbel

 

[eastender]

Overlooked Points

So what do I think about the 18 year senior who was put in jail for having consensual sex with a 14 year old? I say it's about time someone prosecuted people like this.

Korbel

While there are many valid critiques of the Quebec educational system a very interesting feature is the buffer zone created by the CEGEP system. High school runs until grade 11 so youngsters graduate from high school or leave high school by the age of 16/17. They then do two years or pre university at the CEGEP level before university.

This effectively removes 18/19 year old adults from the high schools and limits contact with 13 - 17 year olds.

BTW the issue in the Georgia case referred to in your quote was one of race. 18 year old black , 14 year old white and that such incidents between teens of the same colour and age difference had not been prosecuted.

 

[Kepler]

I don't know you at all, but I doubt it. Of course you have not defined what "handle it" means. Most kids I knew and know at this age basically treat each other (opposite sex, significant other ) as a piece of ass. I don't call that handling it.

Give me a break.

You have not defined what "handling it" means either. I mean it as just enjoying myself and the time spent with the other person, while not being in an abusive relationship.

For the record, the sex was within a long term relationship. But so what if it had been a one night stand? I've had those later on in life. Does that mean that I'm handing things worse now then when I was a teen?


PS: you do realize that you're on an escort review board, right? Where sex is most often about "getting a piece of ass". So does that mean we're all still not handling sex the right way? lol

 

[korbel]

Give me a break.

You have not defined what "handling it" means either. I mean it as just enjoying myself and the time spent with the other person, while not being in an abusive relationship.

For the record, the sex was within a long term relationship. But so what if it had been a one night stand? I've had those later on in life. Does that mean that I'm handing things worse now then when I was a teen?


PS: you do realize that you're on an escort review board, right? Where sex is most often about "getting a piece of ass". So does that mean we're all still not handling sex the right way? lol

Sure Kepler,

So you are equating adults in the hobby with a 14 year old having sex? Now you silly. Face it Kepler. You're rationalizing because you wanted it. End of story.

Cheers,

Korbel

 

[korbel]

Fourteen year olds are not eight year olds: at 14 you know what sex is. If I had a 14 year old daughter I wouldn't want her sleeping with a 50 year old. But if she did, I don't think it should be an issue for the criminal justice system.

Well Kepler,

Not many limits in your view...huh.

YIKES!

Korbel

 

[Kepler]

Now you silly. Face it Kepler. You're rationalizing because you wanted it. End of story.

I notice that you didn't answer my questions.

So, you would express complete understanding (eventhough you say you don't like it) if your 14 y.o girl had sex with a 50 y.o stranger (met over the internet) in a hotel room? You would not call thet 50 y.o man a pedophile? So for you it was wrong for the police to arrest the 31 y.o Belgian in this specific case?

I've already said I wouldn't like it. I would try to stop it. But I would also try to stop my 18 year old daughter from having sex with a 50 year old. The question is: Should this be a criminal act? I think a 14 year old (as opposed to, for example, an 8 year old) knows what sex is. I think a 14 year old can give meaningful consent, so it should not be a criminal offense.

Of course most of the Canadian Senate, and most Liberal and Bloc Québécois MPs, agreed with me and held up the legal change for 2 years. I guess that makes them all pedophiles.


In the case above, the girl was 13 years old. Society has decided to draw the line at 14 (now 16) and the act committed was therefore illegal, and it was proper for the police to intervene. The line has to be drawn somewhere, and I think 14 is a proper age.

 

[Kepler]

Good for you. What ever floats your boat.
How easy is it for an adult to lure a 14 y.o child to give consent?
Justification, justification. Let me quote it again:
"Pedophiles don't believe that they are harming their victims"

I remember being 14, I remember my younger sister and my friends being 14. The answer is "pretty darn hard".


And by the way, from your own quoted definition: "A pedophile is a person whose sexual partner of choice is a child under the legal age of consent for sexual contact." That was 14 years old in Canada until a couple of months ago.

 

[Kepler]

Let me ask you again: Would you consider a 50 y.o man having sex with a 14 y.o a pedophile?

In Canada, until two months ago, the age of consent was 14. Therefore, until 2 months ago, the answer was clearly no.

 

[korbel]

I notice that you didn't answer my questions.





I've already said I wouldn't like it. I would try to stop it. But I would also try to stop my 18 year old daughter from having sex with a 50 year old. The question is: Should this be a criminal act? I think a 14 year old (as opposed to, for example, an 8 year old) knows what sex is. I think a 14 year old can give meaningful consent, so it should not be a criminal offense.

Of course most of the Canadian Senate, and most Liberal and Bloc Québécois MPs, agreed with me and held up the legal change for 2 years. I guess that makes them all pedophiles.


In the case above, the girl was 13 years old. Society has decided to draw the line at 14 (now 16) and the act committed was therefore illegal, and it was proper for the police to intervene. The line has to be draw somewhere, and I think 14 is a proper age.

No Kepler,

The hobby and this case aren't connected. I find the idea that the generic 14 year old can give "meaningful consent" ridiculous. The discipline level of most 14 year olds is still pretty childlike, and very often childish. There is no way adolescents of such poor maturity can deal rationally with complex mature acts.

Anyway this theme isn't going anywhere.

Cheers,

Korbel

 

[Urbanite]

there's a reason we're talking about this one...

mes amis-
It does seem to me that the reason that this post has generated such response is that we all feel– occasionally, from time to time– a bit self-conscious about this hobby. I mean we call it a "hobby" (like fishing, or knitting) as opposed to an– I don't know– obsession (like gambling or obsessive house-cleaning). Anyway, the story that started this thread is likely a tragic one, perhaps of a young girl who wanted to run away, and a man who took advantage. We don't know key details so making a clear determination is going to elude us. But as many have pointed out, there are laws and they are clear.

But more broadly, the whole business about defining a thick black line between sleeping with an 18 yr old (as we all often do based on the reviews on this board) and sleeping with a 17 yr old (horrible, unnatural, awful, etc.) has always seemed to me crazy. Now I understand why we need to do it in the law, and surely there is an age, or a level of innocence, or defenselessness, or lack of maturity, etc. beneath which all reasonable people would say "absolutely not." I am not defending taking advantage of children (I have one, soon to be this age). But I am just saying that the intensity of the replies here springs from our anxiety about whether we're doing anything wrong ourselves.

We like the thick black line because it allows us to say, without any ambiguity (that's the way we men like it) that we are A-OK, and this other guy is a damn pervert. Anyway, that's how it looks from here. I guess the real enemy here is our "certainty." It is hard to know exactly what's OK and what isn't. Now the legal debate is correct and proper, People need to know what the actual legal rules are. But I am just talking about why everyone is so exercised about this. We have to agree that the thick line that separates acceptable from unacceptable is there. As long as we're on the correct side of it, we're fine. I certainly feel fine. I just wonder where all the anger is coming from.

OK, that's it. Bonne nuit from Paris.

 

[Kepler]

So for you a pedolphile is solely a legal argument and has nothing to do with morality.

Actually, I was quoting directly from your definition. But don't let that stop you from slandering me. (as in posts #39 and #43)

And, just for kicks, why don't you tell us at what age you think someone can give consent to a 50 year old? 16? 18? 21?

 

[Kepler]

BTW, society evolves, we are no more in the middle age...Thank God!

So does that mean that people are getting dumber? Less able to consent to sex, despite knowing more about it through school sex ed, the media, etc.?

In Romeo and Juliet, the girl is 13. Maybe in a hundred years the age of consent should be 21 or 30?


You know, many people think that a woman cannot validly consent to sex for money. That all clients are abusers and all SPs are coerced into the job. But I guess your definition of consent doesn't take their opinions into account.

 

[metoo4]

Are you saying that had the 13 y.o girl (in this case) been 14 she would not be lured into that hotel room with the 31 y.o Belgian?

Maxima, that's not the case. The law is there so it need to be respected, whatever we like it or not, it's there for all so, a 13yo is "off limits". Some 14yo would have probably been lured as easily, same as some 25yo. Just look at all the religious sects to convince yourself.

But, back to what I was saying before, what if we replace "fucking" with "driving"? What is the difference between the 2?

You can fuck with a condom, or without, and you can drive without a seat belt, or not. The phrase "I'm so proud, my daughter started driving last week." is only different from the phrase "I'm so proud, my daughter started fucking last week." by the social meaning, the importance we give to sex. If driving was a taboo, the first sentence would ne be acceptable.

In this society we live in, it's the second sentence who isn't considered proper. Is fucking more damageable than driving if all the proper protections are used? You can teach a teen to drive properly, follow speed limits, not drink but, they will still get influenced and likely do as they please so, how is sex different?

 

[Doc Holliday]

Belgian police seize computer of man alleged to have lured Montreal girl, 13, to hote

Belgium police have seized at least one computer belonging to a man accused of romancing online a 13-year-old Montreal girl who suddenly went missing Friday.

The 31-year-old man was found yesterday with the girl at the two-star Hôtel Européene Montreal hotel on St. Hubert St. near the downtown bus terminal. The Belgian man, whose name has not been made public, is in custody and is expected to be charged with luring a minor when he appears in court tomorrow.

The girl from Côte des Neiges was reported missing to Montreal police by her parents Friday. Montreal police say the girl met the Belgian man online. Investigators searched the girl's computer hard drive and discovered hundreds of e-mail exchanges between her and the suspect. Belgian police executed search warrants at the man's home as well as his parents's residence on Saturday, said Montreal police Constable Yannick Ouimet.

The girl was taken to hospital and underwent an exam used in sexual assault cases to collect evidence, Ouimet said. A 13-year-old teenager cannot legally consent to a sexual relationship so if the two had sex, the man would automatically face a sexual assault charge, Ouimet said. However earlier today, Ouimet could not say whether the relationship between the two was sexual. The girl returned to her parents home yesterday.

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=42c16d61-27f3-4aa1-a1bf-b01a5108a5c3

 

[korbel]

When i researched my family tree many years ago, i recall one of my great-great-great++ grandmothers being 11 or 12 years old when she married my great-great-great++ grandfathers who was a sergeant in the militia & just happened to be around 71. It seemed from the records that when she gave birth to my great-great-great++ grandfather a year later, her husband had passed away. That happened back in the 1700's. It probably wasn't that odd to see a girl so young get married, but probably was surprising that someone could live as old as 72.

No. What I am saying is that the state has ought not to be in the bedrooms of the nation.....

I'll leave it to lawmakers and other busybodies to make laws and to rule on the legalities of all of this....

However nature has spoken....and anyone who says that a 14 or 15 or 16 year old girl is not a sexual being....is denying reality....

I'll give just one last example: in India today the AVERAGE marriage age is 18.3 old for women, which means half marry under 18.

But just 40 years ago, half of all women in India were 15 years old or younger when they took their vows....

In fact Mahatma Ghandi himself got married at 13. Will Durant (co-author of the History of Western Civilization) coupled with his wife Ariel when she was 14....and Elvis Presley took up with Priscilla when she was 14...

Are they all pedophiles...?

Hello Doc et al,

About 15 years ago I did a lot of genealogical research on my French-Canadian heritage. Sure there were a lot of women, not just my relatives, who married very young. There were also a lot of the same women who died in childbirth too. I swear every page of microfilm I checked had several notations of dead babies and dead mothers. That proves two things. Many got married very young and many died because they were not physically ready to have babies. Besides, not only was not unusal for girls at this age to get married, it was also common for husbands to wait until they were older to have children to avoid the much greater risk of dying in labor at a young age. So what if many millions of women got married at 12, 13, or 14 in the past. Does that mean they were automatically ready physically and emotionally just because someone said I now pronounce you man and wife. Of course not.

Someone cited the 13 year old marriage of Ghandi. In India marriages might even be arranged at birth, and were commonly arranged at age 5. But, wives were often not allowed to live with their husbands until they were safely mature enough to consummate the marriage.

http://countrystudies.us/india/86.htm

"After the bride and groom are united in sacred rites attended by colorful ceremony, the new bride may be carried away to her in-laws' home, or, if she is very young, she may remain with her parents until they deem her old enough to depart. A prepubescent bride usually stays in her natal home until puberty, after which a separate consummation ceremony is held to mark her departure for her conjugal home and married life. The poignancy of the bride's weeping departure for her new home is prominent in personal memory, folklore, literature, song, and drama throughout India."

But trying to relate emotional and physical readiness to the age of marriage or having a child is nonsense. If every girl in the world got married at 13 it wouldn't porve anything about readiness, maturity, or the ablitiy to provide intelligent consent. Those mature ablities simply don't arrive at the age of 13 whatever is going on in anyone's life at that age. People can rationalize this issue all they want. Young teens simply aren't ready.

Really,

Korbel

 

[Mod 8]

This thread is drifting off topic...

Hello, everyone. I have been watching this thread go farther and farther off topic to the point where it has very little to do with the original topic of the thread. We've gone from an incident in Montreal to discussions about Elvis and Ghandi. If anyone wishes to continue the offshoot discussion, I will be glad to create another thread for it or allow one of you to do so and I will move the pertinent posts. Otherwise this thread stops here unless people get back to the original topic.

Mod 8