A closer look at decriminalizing prostitution
- Thread starter naughtylady
- Start date
Naughty : Would you give me your opinion on the main practical differences between decriminalization and legalization or are there any ?
legalization implies government regulation such as we see in Nevada. (SPs here are not allowed into Las Vegas hotels for example; and must have a registered ID card to work legally: this means a permanent record of having worked in the sex industry!)
decriminalization implies the removal of existing laws.
Personally I do not trust the government to tell me what is the way I must run my business.
decriminalization implies the removal of existing laws.
Personally I do not trust the government to tell me what is the way I must run my business.
naughtylady said:
Hey they tell me how to run mine
why should you dodge that little pleasure.I thought in the State of Nevada prostitution was only legal in certain counties. In the county that the city of Las Vegas is in it is not legal. The Bunny Ranch is in the next county where it is legal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Nevada
http://www.bunnyranch.com/main.php
Making it legal would be a great thing imo.
The girls will be off the streets, safe, clean and their revenu will give a
boost to the economy.
The girls will be off the streets, safe, clean and their revenu will give a
boost to the economy.
No it is not legal in Las Vegas but if a girl works at a ranch she is not even allowed legally to go see a Vegas show at one of their famed hotels on her week off (Generally they work 3 weeks on 1 week off). Pretty extreme IMHO.
If I had to vote between legalizing vs the status quo, I would choose legalizing; however given the choice to vote decriminalizing, that is they I would prefer to see things go. Until they make all sexually active, or at the very least high risk professionals (such as doctors) take mandatory HIV, Hepatitis. etc. tests, I am against forced testing: it is discrimination.
Remember in the USA 25% of university students have some sort of STI. It is not the SPs of the world who we have to worry about. People need to take responsibility for their own actions. In countries where there is mandatory testing for SW, there is a higher incidence of clients pushing for BBservices because they believe it is safe. If an SP has an STI, somebody had to have given it to her!
Both the SP and the client need to treat each other as if they already have an STI and ALWAYS use condoms. We are all adults here. Be responsible for your own actions. Excuses like being caught up in the moment just don`t cut it.
Ronnie,
Naughtylady
If I had to vote between legalizing vs the status quo, I would choose legalizing; however given the choice to vote decriminalizing, that is they I would prefer to see things go. Until they make all sexually active, or at the very least high risk professionals (such as doctors) take mandatory HIV, Hepatitis. etc. tests, I am against forced testing: it is discrimination.
Remember in the USA 25% of university students have some sort of STI. It is not the SPs of the world who we have to worry about. People need to take responsibility for their own actions. In countries where there is mandatory testing for SW, there is a higher incidence of clients pushing for BBservices because they believe it is safe. If an SP has an STI, somebody had to have given it to her!
Both the SP and the client need to treat each other as if they already have an STI and ALWAYS use condoms. We are all adults here. Be responsible for your own actions. Excuses like being caught up in the moment just don`t cut it.
Ronnie,
Naughtylady
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If it ever happens it will have to happen in harmony across the country and not just in one or a few provinces, that is why I believe it will never happen. It can only be tolerated as it is in Montreal. Should the impossible happen and it is decriminalized, the biz will colapse. Just as the car industry now has more manufacturer, dealers and production than it can support, the sex industry will swell the supply will increase and the demand will also increase due to the wide variety and choice but will not keep up with the supply. Another analogy camparing the sex industry to the car industry is that there are curbsiders in the car business. These are people who work individialy part time to buy cars and fix them up to resell at a profit, the sex industry will also have part timers that jump in and out of the business to suppliment their incomes for various reasons from paying the rent to going on spring break. This type of people and these conditions exist now because it is tolerated, but some people will not engage in it unless it is fully decriminalized and there is no risk of repercussions.
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Why would it collapse here when in New Zealand and Australia we have seen nothing of the sort after it was legalized?
I do not think you can compare the sex industry with the car industry. Cars were never illegal. Also sex is a service industry, whereas cars are a product.
Ronnie,
Naughtylady
I do not think you can compare the sex industry with the car industry. Cars were never illegal. Also sex is a service industry, whereas cars are a product.
Ronnie,
Naughtylady
This is Quebec.
Things happen on this side of the Ontario/Quebec boarder that do not happen on the other side. Imagine a situation of no risk of repercussions or prosecution. How many women would engage in the biz part time or full time or on a temporary basis that would not have participated if there was risk of going to jail? I can only take a guess that the when in need all a woman has to do is to place an ad in Craiglist and work from her home, or call or visit a massage parlour or escort service to earn extra income. Even as it is, the LE tolerates the vast majority of activities in the massage and escort business today. While the sex industry may not collapse it would swell by at least 33% and maybe as much as 50% The difference for the consumer would be more choice, more offerings, better deals and better prices. The providers would be forced to offer more for less.
Things happen on this side of the Ontario/Quebec boarder that do not happen on the other side. Imagine a situation of no risk of repercussions or prosecution. How many women would engage in the biz part time or full time or on a temporary basis that would not have participated if there was risk of going to jail? I can only take a guess that the when in need all a woman has to do is to place an ad in Craiglist and work from her home, or call or visit a massage parlour or escort service to earn extra income. Even as it is, the LE tolerates the vast majority of activities in the massage and escort business today. While the sex industry may not collapse it would swell by at least 33% and maybe as much as 50% The difference for the consumer would be more choice, more offerings, better deals and better prices. The providers would be forced to offer more for less.
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My_dingaling said:
When activist groups are talking about decriminalization, they are talking about abolishing the current laws surrounding Prostitution, not changing them as you suggest. (PS: I used to think the same thing when they talked about decriminalizing marijuana.)
Ronnie,
Naughtylady
johnhenrygalt said:
Sex work activists are not the ones who made the definitions, what we are comparing is laymen's usual understanding vs the legal definition as used by the courts. The same definition as marijuana activists.
I use the definition that would be used in referendum for example; the legal definition.
Ronnie,
Naughtylady
johnhenrygalt said:
I agree with you. These terms are misleading. But they have been used in that sense for a few decades now.
However, I dont think legalization means "the removal of all legal barriers".
This word is largely accepted as "making legal" giving it a status. For instance, prostitution in itself is not legal in Canada, but it is not at all illegal. It just has no legal status. In that sense, the word legalization is accepted as giving a status. That comes with regulations of course.
Personnally, I see no way that pure decriminalization (simple abrogation of the 4 articles concerning prostitution in the criminal code AND nothing else) would be socially acceptable. If bawdy houses are not anymore illegal, there will have to be some form of regulation. If it is not considered illegal to make money out the prostitution of an other person, there will have to be some sort of regulations on what is acceptable and what is not, and sanctions, including criminal sanctions.
I understand the sex work activists in requiring simple decriminalization and fearing state regulation. It's normal. But in the end, everybody will have to accept that if we decriminalize, we wil need some regulations. The real question is: what type of regulations do we need?
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A look a New Zealand
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7927461.stm
Page last updated at 00:34 GMT, Tuesday, 17 March 2009
Selling sex legally in New Zealand
In terms of attitudes towards prostitution, New Zealand and Europe
are almost as diametrically opposed as they are in geography. Kiwis
have opted for wholesale liberalisation of the sex trade, while
Europeans are increasingly restricting it.
Does the New Zealand liberal approach provide a model or a warning?
Henri Astier looks at its prostitution industry six years after
decriminalisation, in the first of two articles.
When "Sophie", a medical worker from Christchurch, fell behind on her
mortgage payments last year, she found that her job was not paying
enough. Her only option was a temporary career change: she became a
prostitute.
"I needed money fast so I didn't lose my house," she explains.
A soft-spoken 30-something with a shy smile, Sophie does not look
like the stereotypical scarlet woman, even in the low-cut dress she
wears at work.
She does not feel like one either. "I don't drink. I don't smoke. I
don't do drugs. I'm a vegetarian," she says, adding that she had
qualms about her new job.
But the city centre parlour she joined - basically a pub with a
sitting area at the front and bedrooms at the back - was not the drug-
fuelled dive she had imagined.
"All the women here are lovely," she says. "We spend a lot of time
sitting and talking. I'll stick it out a bit longer."
Good money
Some might question the morality of Sophie's choice, but legally it
cannot be faulted.
Since the Prostitution Reform Act of 2003, brothels have been allowed
to operate more or less freely.
Sex workers have the same rights as everyone else. In the eyes of New
Zealand's law, the oldest profession is just like any other.
This policy stands in marked contrast to Europe. In 1999 Sweden
criminalised the purchase of sex services, and several countries are
introducing similar laws in an attempt to combat trafficking.
Ask New Zealand sex workers what they think of Swedish-style
strictures, and the response is overwhelmingly negative.
"Whether you're prosecuting the men or the girls, you're still
prosecuting the business," says "Lucy", 23, from Wellington.
Lucy works in Bon Ton, an exclusive establishment in the capital
where an hour-long session costs NZ$400 (£140; $200). She says the
reform has given her the opportunity to work for a legitimate
business in a safe environment.
"I make twice what I was earning in retail. I am appreciated by
customers and my boss. I can work whenever I want to - it's by far
the most gratifying work I've ever had," she says.
Legal rights
Lucy's manager, Sarah, also believes criminalising clients would be a
disaster for the industry and put the girls at risk.
"This would scare away the quality customers," she says. "We would be
left with the dangerous sort. The nasty men won't go away."
Bon Ton - which thrives on "quality customers" like lawyers and civil
servants - certainly looks like an ideal showcase for New Zealand-
style liberalisation.
The bedrooms look like luxury suites, the upstairs office looks like
- well... an office, and the workers say they are treated with respect.
Sarah insists she has zero tolerance for abuse and will back the
girls even if they refuse a client. "I can't force a woman to have
sex," she says.
As she speaks another girl appears at the door, draped in a towel.
"Myah" looks at the work ahead, and realises that a client who often
insists on having oral sex without a condom wants to see her.
"I don't want him," Myah says. "No problem," Sarah replies. "I'll
tell him you're not available."
NZ PROSTITUTION REFORM ACT
*Brothels allowed to operate
*Up to four prostitutes can set up collective as equal partners
*Advertising sale of sex legalised
*Brothels require certificate and registration by court
*Sex work subject to normal employment and health and safety standards
Myah is not afraid to turn down work. Her health is at stake, and the
law requires a condom for any commercial sex act. "It is my legal
right to make that demand," she says.
But are the benefits from legalisation confined to high-end
businesses like Bon Ton?
According to Catherine Healy of the New Zealand Prostitutes
Collective (NZPC), better and safer working practices are now the norm.
Across the industry, she says, women are now aware of their rights
and exploitative brothel owners are becoming marginalised as a result
of the reform.
"Sex workers say: I can work across town," she says. "The dynamic has
altered."
Anna Reed, who was a sex worker in Christchurch for 23 years and is
now NZPC's local spokesperson, agrees that exploitative practices
have become rare.
"Owners used to demand huge fines for being late. They used to hire
and fire workers without reason." But now, she says, "girls feel more
able to stand up for themselves".
Limited change
Another key benefit of decriminalisation, according to Ms Healy, is a
sea change in relations with the police: "If you're the one
committing a crime, you won't ask the police for help."
Now, Ms Healy says, the girls find law enforcement officials are on
their side.
This idea was borne out by a parliamentary report last year, which
gave a positive assessment of the reform. It said prostitutes were
more likely to report violence to police, and officers were treating
their complaints seriously.
Some brothel operators, however, are not so sure the reform has made
a big difference.
Bon Ton owner Jennifer - who got into the sex business after
decriminalisation - says some old-style establishments are still
exploiting people. "This is still an industry in transition," she says.
Monique, who ran brothels before 2003 and now owns Capri, a
"Gentleman's club and garden bar" in Christchurch, also plays down
the impact of the reform - but for the opposite reason.
She says relations with police were good even when bordellos operated
illegally. And then, as now, exploitation of girls was never
widespread, Monique adds.
"We now have a fat, legal agreement with the workers but they are
treated the same."
Suspicions
A sure sign that New Zealand's sex trade has not been entirely
revolutionised is that society still frowns on it.
Last year a teacher was sacked when it was learnt that she
occasionally - and perfectly legally - moonlighted as a prostitute.
Many sex workers keep a regular part-time job to avoid leaving
suspicious gaps on their CVs.
They tell only trusted friends about their main activity. None of the
working prostitutes and madams interviewed for this report was ready
to give their real names.
Brothels may be legal but most New Zealanders prefer not to live next
to one.
Bon Ton never mentions an address in its adverts - only a phone
number. In Christchurch operators had to fight a proposed zoning law
that would have kept them out of most areas.
But the overwhelming majority in the business feels huge progress was
made when the industry emerged from the shadow.
Anna Reed says she loved working as a prostitute - "I had sex, money
and men!" - and resents enduring cliches about a job no-one in her
right mind could willingly embrace.
"We get so pissed off when politicians portray us as victims," she says.
"It's important to blow down the stereotypes about sex workers -
particularly that of the poor girl who is coerced into doing it."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7927461.stm
Page last updated at 00:34 GMT, Tuesday, 17 March 2009
Selling sex legally in New Zealand
In terms of attitudes towards prostitution, New Zealand and Europe
are almost as diametrically opposed as they are in geography. Kiwis
have opted for wholesale liberalisation of the sex trade, while
Europeans are increasingly restricting it.
Does the New Zealand liberal approach provide a model or a warning?
Henri Astier looks at its prostitution industry six years after
decriminalisation, in the first of two articles.
When "Sophie", a medical worker from Christchurch, fell behind on her
mortgage payments last year, she found that her job was not paying
enough. Her only option was a temporary career change: she became a
prostitute.
"I needed money fast so I didn't lose my house," she explains.
A soft-spoken 30-something with a shy smile, Sophie does not look
like the stereotypical scarlet woman, even in the low-cut dress she
wears at work.
She does not feel like one either. "I don't drink. I don't smoke. I
don't do drugs. I'm a vegetarian," she says, adding that she had
qualms about her new job.
But the city centre parlour she joined - basically a pub with a
sitting area at the front and bedrooms at the back - was not the drug-
fuelled dive she had imagined.
"All the women here are lovely," she says. "We spend a lot of time
sitting and talking. I'll stick it out a bit longer."
Good money
Some might question the morality of Sophie's choice, but legally it
cannot be faulted.
Since the Prostitution Reform Act of 2003, brothels have been allowed
to operate more or less freely.
Sex workers have the same rights as everyone else. In the eyes of New
Zealand's law, the oldest profession is just like any other.
This policy stands in marked contrast to Europe. In 1999 Sweden
criminalised the purchase of sex services, and several countries are
introducing similar laws in an attempt to combat trafficking.
Ask New Zealand sex workers what they think of Swedish-style
strictures, and the response is overwhelmingly negative.
"Whether you're prosecuting the men or the girls, you're still
prosecuting the business," says "Lucy", 23, from Wellington.
Lucy works in Bon Ton, an exclusive establishment in the capital
where an hour-long session costs NZ$400 (£140; $200). She says the
reform has given her the opportunity to work for a legitimate
business in a safe environment.
"I make twice what I was earning in retail. I am appreciated by
customers and my boss. I can work whenever I want to - it's by far
the most gratifying work I've ever had," she says.
Legal rights
Lucy's manager, Sarah, also believes criminalising clients would be a
disaster for the industry and put the girls at risk.
"This would scare away the quality customers," she says. "We would be
left with the dangerous sort. The nasty men won't go away."
Bon Ton - which thrives on "quality customers" like lawyers and civil
servants - certainly looks like an ideal showcase for New Zealand-
style liberalisation.
The bedrooms look like luxury suites, the upstairs office looks like
- well... an office, and the workers say they are treated with respect.
Sarah insists she has zero tolerance for abuse and will back the
girls even if they refuse a client. "I can't force a woman to have
sex," she says.
As she speaks another girl appears at the door, draped in a towel.
"Myah" looks at the work ahead, and realises that a client who often
insists on having oral sex without a condom wants to see her.
"I don't want him," Myah says. "No problem," Sarah replies. "I'll
tell him you're not available."
NZ PROSTITUTION REFORM ACT
*Brothels allowed to operate
*Up to four prostitutes can set up collective as equal partners
*Advertising sale of sex legalised
*Brothels require certificate and registration by court
*Sex work subject to normal employment and health and safety standards
Myah is not afraid to turn down work. Her health is at stake, and the
law requires a condom for any commercial sex act. "It is my legal
right to make that demand," she says.
But are the benefits from legalisation confined to high-end
businesses like Bon Ton?
According to Catherine Healy of the New Zealand Prostitutes
Collective (NZPC), better and safer working practices are now the norm.
Across the industry, she says, women are now aware of their rights
and exploitative brothel owners are becoming marginalised as a result
of the reform.
"Sex workers say: I can work across town," she says. "The dynamic has
altered."
Anna Reed, who was a sex worker in Christchurch for 23 years and is
now NZPC's local spokesperson, agrees that exploitative practices
have become rare.
"Owners used to demand huge fines for being late. They used to hire
and fire workers without reason." But now, she says, "girls feel more
able to stand up for themselves".
Limited change
Another key benefit of decriminalisation, according to Ms Healy, is a
sea change in relations with the police: "If you're the one
committing a crime, you won't ask the police for help."
Now, Ms Healy says, the girls find law enforcement officials are on
their side.
This idea was borne out by a parliamentary report last year, which
gave a positive assessment of the reform. It said prostitutes were
more likely to report violence to police, and officers were treating
their complaints seriously.
Some brothel operators, however, are not so sure the reform has made
a big difference.
Bon Ton owner Jennifer - who got into the sex business after
decriminalisation - says some old-style establishments are still
exploiting people. "This is still an industry in transition," she says.
Monique, who ran brothels before 2003 and now owns Capri, a
"Gentleman's club and garden bar" in Christchurch, also plays down
the impact of the reform - but for the opposite reason.
She says relations with police were good even when bordellos operated
illegally. And then, as now, exploitation of girls was never
widespread, Monique adds.
"We now have a fat, legal agreement with the workers but they are
treated the same."
Suspicions
A sure sign that New Zealand's sex trade has not been entirely
revolutionised is that society still frowns on it.
Last year a teacher was sacked when it was learnt that she
occasionally - and perfectly legally - moonlighted as a prostitute.
Many sex workers keep a regular part-time job to avoid leaving
suspicious gaps on their CVs.
They tell only trusted friends about their main activity. None of the
working prostitutes and madams interviewed for this report was ready
to give their real names.
Brothels may be legal but most New Zealanders prefer not to live next
to one.
Bon Ton never mentions an address in its adverts - only a phone
number. In Christchurch operators had to fight a proposed zoning law
that would have kept them out of most areas.
But the overwhelming majority in the business feels huge progress was
made when the industry emerged from the shadow.
Anna Reed says she loved working as a prostitute - "I had sex, money
and men!" - and resents enduring cliches about a job no-one in her
right mind could willingly embrace.
"We get so pissed off when politicians portray us as victims," she says.
"It's important to blow down the stereotypes about sex workers -
particularly that of the poor girl who is coerced into doing it."
Last year a documentary for the GlobalTV series "Global Currents" was recorded in New Zealand. It was mentioned at the time that it was intended to be broadcast in spring of 2009, although I have not heard anything about it since then.
http://www2.canada.com/victoriatime...l?id=d324ccb5-b029-4243-a8f0-9718eecc12ce&p=1
CTV is showing what appears to be a different documentary, "The Business of Sex", this coming Friday March 27. The description says it will talk to escorts in Canada and visit a brothel in Germany.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/show/CTVShows/20090319/business_of_sex_090319/20090319/
http://www.doctv.com/trailers/businessofsex.html
http://www2.canada.com/victoriatime...l?id=d324ccb5-b029-4243-a8f0-9718eecc12ce&p=1
CTV is showing what appears to be a different documentary, "The Business of Sex", this coming Friday March 27. The description says it will talk to escorts in Canada and visit a brothel in Germany.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/show/CTVShows/20090319/business_of_sex_090319/20090319/
http://www.doctv.com/trailers/businessofsex.html
I suspect it is all talk, nothing will change. They will just keep tolerating it and turn a blind eye.
One interesting point in that news report is the relation made between decriminalization and the improvement of the relation between LE and the sex workers: they don't fear anymore to report abuses to the police. We have heard it again and again in so many reports about decriminalization in New Zealand. It is probably the main impact to be expected from decriminalization.
Care to expand a little bit?
For politicians, this topic is a loaded gun. They won't touch it unless they are forced to. They know it is divisive in their electorate and their own party. Why do this?
Unfortunately American society is very prudish especially those in power are big time prudes. I guess because America is puritanical. I doubt this will change anytime soon, probably not in our lifetime. America is the most hostile place in the world to sex work.Pretty much a perfect case study in why it is fruitless to try to advance reasonable reform arguments. Too much propaganda and the media/Hollywood has chosen their side.
Ashley Judd calls out John Oliver for insensitive comments about sex work: 'Listen to survivors'
After equating sex work with those who work at Subway, John Oliver ended up in hot water.www.yahoo.com
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