Amnesty International votes for decriminalisation

[Orange_Julep]

:whoo::whoo::whoo:

a nice victory over the sick megalomaniacs!

Victory, as one might call Greenpeace passing a resolution denouncing global warming a victory?

 

[CaptRenault]

...in Montreal we have issues of gang control and mafia-like control of women, underage recruiting, etc. I don't thinks those issues go away with legalization or decriminalization...

...I would think guys who have participated in this industry and know something of it from the inside could make much better arguments than narrowly classifying our opponents as "clueless celebrities". We have pointed out the big problems in such a lightly regulated stage as Montreal...

Merlot,

I think it's time for you to give up seeing escorts in Montreal, because you are clearly very uneasy about the nature of the Montreal escort business.

You have frequently expressed your view that there are "big problems" and "...issues of gang control and mafia-like control of women, underage recruiting..." in the escort business in Montreal. You never present any evidence of such "big problems" other than links to a few news articles that parrot the anti-prostitution and abolitionist arguments of the industry's critics.

Sometimes you maintain that you have some inside knowledge of the business because you are a client and you have talked with real, live escorts. I have also talked with a lot Montreal escorts (and even done so in what is the native language of most of them). Almost everyone else on MERB has also talked with Montreal escorts. Somehow, you're the only client to whom escorts frequently tell lurid tales of "gang control and mafia-like control of women, underage recruiting, etc." I suppose they also told you that they all started escorting at age 13 after they were kidnapped off the street by pimps to whom they turn over all their money. Then they are "trafficked" to Toronto where they are sold to other pimps and forced to serve 20 clients per day.

I have heard and read such stories myself. But not from, you know, actual Montreal escorts. I hear and read such myths in the writings and broadcasts of anti-prostitution advocates. I have the same respect for people who believe those myths as I do for people who believe that stories in the Bible are literally true. I know that there are grains of truth in the stories but they are mostly myths and I don't believe them myself. I also know that I probably can't change the minds of true believers.

So I won't try to change your mind. But I would advise you to give up seeing escorts in Montreal. There's just no way for you to verify that any given escort you see is not really a victim, someone who has been "trafficked," "prostituted" and victimized.

You are not an industry insider. You do not have any special knowledge. You're a self-proclaimed feminist and you know that by seeing escorts in Montreal you are doing something that is anathema to mainstream feminists. To them you are part of the problem and they don't care that you agree with them about the nature of the business. If they could have their way, you would be prosecuted for your crimes along with every other client. So the best thing is for you to give up seeing escorts in Montreal. You can use the money you save to help fund the fight against the industry. The organizations listed here would welcome your contributions.

 

[gugu]

You can use the money you save to help fund the fight against the industry. The organizations listed here would welcome your contributions.

:nono:

I would rather suggest those listed here. :smile:

 

[Merlot]

Hello all,

You have frequently expressed your view that there are "big problems" and "...issues of gang control and mafia-like control of women, underage recruiting..." in the escort business in Montreal. You never present any evidence of such "big problems" other than links to a few news articles that parrot the anti-prostitution and abolitionist arguments of the industry's critics.

This is a lie. I have generally expressed consistent concerns that problems of abuses exist while people like you have seem to prefer denial. I want to side with the safety of all the women and hope awareness can help bring better protection if they need it. You and others seem to want to demonize anyone that dissents from your typical view that generally whitewashes the situation and denies there are any negative issues. If I err then I am erring on the side of caution, safety, and protection. If you err then your denials provide the atmosphere of inaction that allows women to be vulnerable to exploitation.

Somehow, you're the only client to whom escorts frequently tell lurid tales of "gang control and mafia-like control of women, underage recruiting, etc."

This is a blatant lie. What I get is what I have read from the posts of others. In a few cases where it took a long time to see a lady they have explained the unseemly details of why that happened. No lady has ever mentioned gangs or the mafia to me personally. That has been put out on this board and usually removed later. As for underage recruiting there have been exposures over the years and the disappearance of those ladies from the agency they worked for. In one case a member I know personally saw a lady. Many members were reviewing her extensively with enthusiasm. It was learned later that she was underage. She was fired and all posts were removed.

As for me being the only one concerned with this issue I give you these statements from this thread: https://merb.cc/vbulletin/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=880810

The subject of the movie is pimps & abused ladies of the industry.

I've watched it about 2 months ago.
People in here saying these things do not exist do not know what they are talking about... of course no providers on merb are pimped I believe but this is not the same thing out there. I know some girls are brainwashed and give most of their money to their boyfriend/pimp ... and years go by and they're still living their shitty life and not making something out of this.
There is one sentence from that movie I will never forget : "There is no difference in my mind between someone who murders and somebody who kills someone's soul."
These things are way more common than people think... just like domestic violence, we do not talk about it but these things are happening widely behind closed doors.

You are correct about the crazy numbers of sex workers who are supposedly all either underage or trafficked according to various politicians. The numbers are clearly way too high and the percentage who are either underage or trafficked is extremely exaggerated. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, even if the numbers in the U.S. & Canada are small. There's no doubt that trafficked prostitutes exist, perhaps more in the U.S. than in Canada. There are plenty of women brought to North America as essentially indentured servants in the sex industry where they have no access to their own passports or id and must pay off excessive 'debts' to their traffickers for their transportation and upkeep with no ability to even leave their place of work for years. The definition of trafficking used by politicians, however, is too broad and seems to even include the taxi drivers flagged down by an SP going to work.

I've removed the names since they may not want to be brought directly into this issue, but the posts were written in June of this year. One is an escort with great credibility, the other is a long time member.

Captain your gross and false characterizations of my posting on this issue point out exactly what I have been saying. Some people are very self-serving and in denial on this issue. They have engaged in the same ugly tactics of vilifying those they disagree with for their own selfish purposes. Maybe they don't want to spoil their fantasies. maybe they don't or never cared about the risks and troubles some women face. None of that changes the facts.

You're a self-proclaimed feminist and you know that by seeing escorts in Montreal you are doing something that is anathema to mainstream feminists.

Another ridiculous lie. I've never said or thought any such thing. Any such claim is consistent with the sad need to vilify and demonize in desperation. If anything I am an egalitarian and a humanist. I don't like or agree with the more radical wing of feminists especially regarding escorts.

And I'll say this. I'm sure you have been told of abuses and have been aware of them. No one can be in this industry so long and not have been made aware that exists. You go right ahead an deny that.

Now read the first post from this thread and then tell me there are no threats or abuses toward escorts. https://merb.cc/vbulletin/showthread.php?132035-Menaces-de-viol&p=899916#post899916

Cheers,

Merlot

 

[Siocnarf]

Merlot, I don't think anyone is denying that abuse exist. That's not the point, because abuse exist in regular jobs, in families and just about anywhere. Pretty much everyone has some knowledge of some spousal abuse that happened in their area. Saying that something should be criminalized because it has a number of abusive situations is a wacky argument on their part. Anything bad that happens is already a crime in the book. Facts show that it is the prohibition laws that exacerbate these abusive situation. There are plenty of legitimate reasons why prostitution can be said to be bad, same as alcohol, gambling, abortion, etc. but the debate is not about good vs bad. It's about legal vs criminal.

 

[Merlot]

Hello all,

Merlot, I don't think anyone is denying that abuse exist.

Siocnarf, you're a good man. I was not interested in making a crusade of any kind out of this. I posted only because some badly over the top statements got my attention. I don't know why Captain Renault had to go into some insane Rush Limbaugh type of cartoonish polemics, but to pour out a fountain of lies is truly desperate. The rest came up because some were acting like this business is a perfect utopia of endless happiness. https://merb.cc/vbulletin/showthread.php?132035-Menaces-de-viol Obviously it's not.

It's about legal vs criminal.

We all know the current system does more harm than good. Case closed.

Capt., get A LOT of rest.

Cheers,

Merlot

 

[gugu]

Merlot, I dont have any problem with your perception of sex work conditions in general. You're middle of the road. I see things pretty much the same way as Captain Renault. But he is not middle of the road, just like me. Amnesty has a position closer to yours, with an emphatic starting point: a huge level of violence in sex work. The thing is, however, that Montréal is in no way representative. AI would have kept quiet if it was, because there are probablably only a few cities that provide a comparable level of security for sex work. The level of life threatening aggressions of sex workers here is pretty low. The Bedford decision is not about sex workers discomfort, it's about 40 sex workers MIA for years in the Pickton case. The obvious lesson was learned in Québec. We have stopped busting incalls, starting in the late 1990, even before the Pickton case in B.C. Not the perfect world, but among the safest place in the world.

I just listened to Morgane Merteuil this morning on the radio (she's the best known sex workers voice in France, but leaning quite far on the left of the political spectrum). She rarely contradict the abolitionnists on the level of violence, much higher among the migrant street sex workers. It is also a bit because, the victimhood is an argument as important for sex workers organisations as for the abolitionnist moral entrepreneurs. She describes things pretty much the same way you do.

 

[CaptRenault]

...I was not interested in making a crusade of any kind out of this. I posted only because some badly over the top statements got my attention. I don't know why Captain Renault had to go into some insane Rush Limbaugh type of cartoonish polemics, but to pour out a fountain of lies is truly desperate. The rest came up because some were acting like this business is a perfect utopia of endless happiness. https://merb.cc/vbulletin/showthread.php?132035-Menaces-de-viol Obviously it's not.

Merlot, the topic of this thread is "Amnesty International votes for decriminalisation." I believe the thread starter's purpose was to praise Amnesty International (which is generally considered to be a progressive organization dear to the hearts of Hollywood liberals) for taking a courageous stand in favor of the complete decriminalization of prostitution and to bring this good news to the attention of MERBites.

As one would expect, the anti-prostitution movement went ballistic over this news and mounted yet another hysterical PR campaign to promote their belief that prostitution is inherently evil and needs to be abolished by throwing in jail all male clients (man, if they ever get their way we would see the jail construction industry boom like never before :lol: ). Here's some of what was said by the abolitionists reacting to Amnesty:

Medical professionals, the testimonies of survivors and extensive research all demonstrate that the sex industry is predicated on dehumanization, degradation and gender violence that can cause life-long physical and psychological harm to those exploited at the hands of pimps, traffickers and buyers of sex (or “johns”). Prostitution is a harmful practice steeped in gender and economic inequalities that leaves a devastating impact on those sold and exploited in the sex trade.

In reaction to the boringly predictable and overwrought "Change" letter, Patron made an innocuous observation (in the second post) that "I wonder what the angle is for 'older' Hollywood women to come out against this." This was the signal for Merlot the White Knight of MERB to quickly (in post #4) mount his trusty steed and gallop to the defense of "those who might be opposed to sex for money" because of their "...very rational basic concerns about risks in the industry legal or illegal."

So instead of a thread celebrating a rare victory for the voices of moderation and reason in the Great Prostitution Debate of the 21st Century, Merlot takes advantage of the thread to defend the "rational concerns" of the abolitionists. Sorry, Merlot, but I don't agree that it is rational to believe that "...the sex industry is predicated on dehumanization, degradation and gender violence..." and "Prostitution is a harmful practice steeped in gender and economic inequalities." Of course, Merlot goes on to repeat his familiar charges that the Montreal escort industry has "big problems" and "...issues of gang control and mafia-like control of women, underage recruiting..." However, as always, he fails to offer any substantive evidence of the corruption and evil that he believes to be endemic to the business. Yet Merlot characterizes as "insane" anyone who dares to challenge him.

Merlot, I acknowledge that you apparently sincerely believe that the Montreal escort industry is full of "abuses," just as I acknowledge that some people sincerely believe in things that I don't believe in (e.g. UFOs, the literal truth of Bible stories, or the desirability of living in a puritanical city like Boston). That's why I advise you to give up seeing escorts in Montreal. There is simply no way for you to ensure that you are not complicit in these abuses.

Do you check every girl's ID to make sure her stated age is true? How do know whether or not any given agency is controlled by a gang or organized crime? What do you do if a girl ever mentions her "boyfriend" (which is equivalent to a "pimp" for the abolitionists)? Aren't the agencies that you deal with the same as "pimps?" After all, they take a percentage of the escort's income, provide services such as transportation, protection and promotion. Isn't that the same as what a pimp does? What about all the "trafficked" escorts in Montreal? You know, the ones who grew up in the wilds of Quebec and were "trafficked" to the big city. What about the Montreal escorts who started their lives in other places like Russia, Latin America or Eastern Europe? Surely it must have been "traffickers" who tricked them into coming to Montreal for jobs as waitresses and nannies. (In truth it was their parents who brought them to Montreal so they could escape poverty and political oppression back home.)

Obviously you can't know any of those things about any escort. But if you are sincere in your beliefs, then you should not take a chance of being complicit in the abuses inherent in the business. Merlot, for you own good and the good of the hundreds of damsels in distress (i.e., escorts) who will appreciate it, please stop seeing escorts in Montreal.

 

[daydreamer41]

Decriminalization is the best of all worlds, especially when it is incall. It allows security for women who choose to provide without the fear of LE raids. I remember when incalls were fairly safe places to go 30 to 35 years ago. Police were too busy fighting real crime and almost never raided places unless there were complaints. What gives prostitution a bad rap is the strung out young girl who is pimped out, working for drugs $. The best of all worlds are places that are out of view of the public and which have adequate security for all. And it is legally permitted.

 

[CaptRenault]

Decriminalization is the best of all worlds, especially when it is incall. It allows security for women who choose to provide without the fear of LE raids. I remember when incalls were fairly safe places to go 30 to 35 years ago...The best of all worlds are places that are out of view of the public and which have adequate security for all. And it is legally permitted.

Daydreamer, I agree with you. Brothels (or similar establishments such as FKKs in Germany) are the norm in countries such as Germany, New Zealand and Australia where prostitution is legal or decriminalized. Women are not required to work in such establishments, but many choose to do so because a brothel/FKK provides security, privacy, convenience and companionship with other women.

In the first half of the 20th century Montreal had hundreds of brothels that were not fully legal but were openly tolerated. They were eliminated during a prudish era that began in the mid-50s. The story of that era is told in a current exhibit at the Montreal History Museum: Scandal! Vice, Crime and Morality in Montreal, 1940-1960.

 

[gugu]

In the first half of the 20th century Montreal had hundreds of brothels that were not fully legal but were openly tolerated.

Yep, and today's in-call and MP work pretty much the same way and are pretty much the same size. There is simply much less corruption today.

 

[Siocnarf]

It is also a bit because, the victimhood is an argument as important for sex workers organisations as for the abolitionnist moral entrepreneurs. She describes things pretty much the same way you do.

That's why the sex worker groups call their approach harm reduction. Danger is just a reality and there's no denying it. Even ''normal'' sex and dating can get pretty dangerous. The goal is to acknowledge the dangers and make it as safe as possible and educate people on the real risk so they can make enlightened decisions. Where abolitionists are dishonest is by saying that the harms are inherent, ubiquitous and unavoidable.

 

[Merlot]

Hello all,

Merlot, the topic of this thread is "Amnesty International votes for decriminalisation."

Yes. I have not had any objection to anything Gugu has said yet. He knows it. I've haven't said anything against Amnesty International and never thought to. I have found the statements that Hollywood actresses are trying to attract conservatives to sell their movies by being against this odd. I have found the statements that women who are unattractive are against this because they can't make money off of sex work silly.

Sorry, Merlot, but I don't agree that it is rational to believe that "...the sex industry is predicated on dehumanization, degradation and gender violence..." and "Prostitution is a harmful practice steeped in gender and economic inequalities."

I said people have concerns about exploitation of women, not the greatly bloated hyperbole you go on about.

Of course, Merlot goes on to repeat his familiar charges that the Montreal escort industry has "big problems" and "...issues of gang control and mafia-like control of women, underage recruiting...". However, as always, he fails to offer any substantive evidence of the corruption and evil that he believes to be endemic to the business. Yet Merlot characterizes as "insane" anyone who dares to challenge him. ]

More grossy hyper-exaggerated hyperbole.

How do know whether or not any given agency is controlled by a gang or organized crime?

Never said any such thing. I said other members over the years have cited these things being involved within this industry. Blame me for citing THEM. I have never said these elements were ever connected with the agencies. Agencies do not run the entire sex work industry in Montreal, as if you didn't know that.

What are you afraid of??? You are spending a lot of time with big exaggerations and some outright lies to create very shrill slilliness against me. You are the one making me sound much bigger than I ever imagined, and did not want.

You're overwrought and angry. For you Capt. A peace offering. Calm down, smell the flowers, have a hug, enjoys some sweets. SMILE AGAIN.

Peace, :thumb:

Merlot

 

[daydreamer41]

Hello all,

You're overwrought and angry. For you Capt. A peace offering. Calm down, smell the flowers, have a hug, enjoys some sweets. SMILE AGAIN.

Peace, :thumb:

Merlot

Watch out Capt. Renault. First he says you are angry. Next thing, Merlot will call you a hater if you continue to not agree with him. Evidence in the sports threads. That's his usual M.O.

 

[lgna69xxx]

Agree, the safety is what is most important for the ladies and it is a shame the government and much of the public can't understand how that is compromised with the new law. Capt, you make some excellent factual statements in this thread, as always.

Cheers :thumb:

Daydreamer, I agree with you. Brothels (or similar establishments such as FKKs in Germany) are the norm in countries such as Germany, New Zealand and Australia where prostitution is legal or decriminalized. Women are not required to work in such establishments, but many choose to do so because a brothel/FKK provides security, privacy, convenience and companionship with other women.

In the first half of the 20th century Montreal had hundreds of brothels that were not fully legal but were openly tolerated. They were eliminated during a prudish era that began in the mid-50s. The story of that era is told in a current exhibit at the Montreal History Museum: Scandal! Vice, Crime and Morality in Montreal, 1940-1960.

 

[BookerL]

Hello all

Decriminalized or not ,it will not really change what none hobbyist think about it !




Cheers





Booker

 

[gugu]

True, Booker, particularly because 1 most peaple have simply no opinion on it and could not care less and 2 those who have one aprove of sex work in majority.

 

[Merlot]

Gentlemen,

But if you are sincere in your beliefs, then you should not take a chance of being complicit in the abuses inherent in the business.

Of course you have nothing in your conscience because in your beliefs there's no possibility of any troubling issues since in your world no lady has ever faced coercion, threats, abuse, nothing at all right Capt.. What a perfect excuse to avoid questioning anything and do anything you please to take your pleasures unconcerned with anything.

http://www.canadianwomen.org/facts-about-sex-trafficking-in-canada

Isn’t sex trafficking more of a problem in other countries, but not Canada?

In Canada, 93% of sex trafficking victims come from Canada, not other countries.[ii]

In 2013, the Canadian Women’s Foundation conducted a national survey of community service providers, who reported serving a total of 2,872 trafficked girls and women in one year. We also consulted with 160 women from across Canada who identified themselves as trafficked.

67% of Canadians agree that Canadian girls under the age of 16 are being recruited/trafficked to work in prostitution against their will.[iii]

Canada does not currently have a standard system for tracking incidents of sex trafficking: national, coordinated research is necessary for sustainable data collection.

Currently, incidents of sex trafficking are recorded only when they involve law enforcement or federal agencies. Like with other types of sexual or physical violence, victims rarely come forward to report being trafficked. For example, fewer than 10% of sexual assaults are reported to the police and given their experiences of control and coercion, trafficking victims are likely even less able to report their abuse. When trafficked women do come into contact with the law, they are often seen as criminals or consensual participants in the sex industry, not victims.

OOOOPS! But you deny all of this because your conscience says none of it ever happened. Right Capt. :crazy:

Bon,
Ça ne fait même pas un mois que je suis de retour pour travailler a Montréal, que je me fais menacer. Ça va bien...
Ce matin j'ai reçu un texto d'un inconnu me demandant mes restrictions : anal et éjaculation buccale, je ne fais pas de PSE avec de nouveaux clients. Il ma traité de nom et que comme je n'étais qu'une pute, je n'avais pas mon mot a dire, c'était un service important que je devais offrir. Il ma dit qu'il allait seulement payer une femme qui le laissait faire ce que lui désir, sans parler. Que j'essayais de l'arnaquer, je lui ai rétorqué que s'il avait lu mes reviews il connaitrait le service que j'offrais et que je ne suis pas une voleuse. Je lui ai aussi suggéré une poupée gonflable. Je lui ai dit qu'il était définitivement barré avec moi, alors qu'il continuait de m'envoyer des 'insultes' auxquelles je ne répondais pas. Ce soir j'ai eu un faux call, de un de ses amis, I dodge a bullet, pas vraiment. La j'ai le droit a des menaces de viol, viol anal, vaginal, buccal et de me faire pisser dessus, la grande classe. Ils ont envoyés mes photos ainsi que mon numéro a tous leurs frères pour me faire des booking... Je reçois des messages d'enragés bien que j'ai été toujours très polie. Sachant qu'ils sont une organisation, je sais pas si je dois m'inquiéter, c'est sur que je n'aime pas trop ça. - you can run, but you can't hide dirty bitch c'est pas ce qui me semble le plus joyeux. Que feriez vous a ma place, sachant qu'ils ont désormais mon adresse. Police?

On parle de numéros de Montréal et de Calgary donc probablement partout...

All fake in your world too, right Capt..

:thumb:

Merlot

 

[PopeDover]

Merlot,
You might be the one exploiting an escort by using Amanda's misfortune in your attempt to make a point. Did you get her consent? Does she even object to the Amnesty conclusions?

 

[BookerL]

True, Booker, particularly because 1 most peaple have simply no opinion on it and could not care less and 2 those who have one aprove of sex work in majority.

Most poeple have a public opinion and a private opinion .
Which is the real one ?


Cheers



Booker