Amnesty International votes for decriminalisation

[Melyssa]

On constate par les commentaires ici que c'est une bonne nouvelle pour les filles évidemment. :lol:

 

[Merlot]

Hello all,

Merlot, You might be the one exploiting an escort by using Amanda's misfortune in your attempt to make a point. Did you get her consent? Does she even object to the Amnesty conclusions?

PopeDover, I am badgered over and over for proof of the troubles escorts face. Now when it has been made public freely for anyone to see you say I can't apply it no matter how it fits the proof. Are you also saying I am exploiting canadianwomen.org? So you say I cannot use perfectly relevant facts because they support my point. Is there any other directly relevant proof I cannot use? Public crime stats for instance? How far would you like to rig this discussion in your favor? Citing relevant evidence has never been an issue on this board.

Merlot, I dont have any problem with your perception of sex work conditions in general. You're middle of the road. I see things pretty much the same way as Captain Renault. But he is not middle of the road, just like me. Amnesty has a position closer to yours, with an emphatic starting point: a huge level of violence in sex work. The thing is, however, that Montréal is in no way representative.

You're saying Amnesty International has the same view as me. Funny, it's been pointed out to me by others that I am against them.

The fact is I have never said the Montreal scene has a high level of violence. I have cited what others have said, and I have rejected the idea of those who have been implying there's nothing negative going on.

Cheers,

Merlot

 

[gugu]

In Canada, 93% of sex trafficking victims come from Canada, not other countries.[ii]

In 2013, the Canadian Women’s Foundation conducted a national survey of community service providers, who reported serving a total of 2,872 trafficked girls and women in one year. We also consulted with 160 women from across Canada who identified themselves as trafficked.

67% of Canadians agree that Canadian girls under the age of 16 are being recruited/trafficked to work in prostitution against their will.[iii]

Canada does not currently have a standard system for tracking incidents of sex trafficking: national, coordinated research is necessary for sustainable data collection.

Currently, incidents of sex trafficking are recorded only when they involve law enforcement or federal agencies. Like with other types of sexual or physical violence, victims rarely come forward to report being trafficked. For example, fewer than 10% of sexual assaults are reported to the police and given their experiences of control and coercion, trafficking victims are likely even less able to report their abuse. When trafficked women do come into contact with the law, they are often seen as criminals or consensual participants in the sex industry, not victims.[/I]

I can't believe you fall for this bullshit, Merlot. These number either mean absolutely nothing (93%) or are irrelevant (67%) or are made up (2872 and 10%) and thery are provided by a fundation that need donors.

 

[Merlot]

Gentlemen,

I can't believe you fall for this bullshit, Merlot. These number either mean absolutely nothing (93%) or are irrelevant (67%) or are made up (2872 and 10%) and thery are provided by a fundation that need donors.

So let's get this straight. Nothing women's groups says is right, current publicly printed proof is not allowed, no escort or members experiences are allowed, recorded arrests (below) are irrelevant, the Canadian government's own statements are BS. Would you like help with any other things you may have forgotten to dismiss?

The Star
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/..._rescued_from_crosscanada_sex_trade_ring.html

Canadian Gov.
http://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/rsrcs/pblctns/ntnl-ctn-pln-cmbt/index-eng.aspx

Tell me something Gugu, when are you guys ever going to provide proof everything is just fine like you keep implying?

BTW: I have agreed with the basic thrust of arguments against C36. But here's the funny part. Pretty much everyone say C36 is a very bad idea and one reason is this:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/12/canada-anti-prostitution-law-workers-safety

"Sex workers worry that the new legislation will leave them more vulnerable to attack, with less time and opportunity to vet clients and less ability to share information about violent punters."

http://www.vice.com/en_ca/read/cana...ution-bill-creates-danger-for-sex-workers-993

"Despite nearly a year of protests and outcry, Canada's new anti-sex work law, Bill C-36, passed its third reading in the Senate on Tuesday, and only awaits royal assent to become law. Unfortunately these laws will create unsafe conditions​ for sex workers across the country. And according to experts I've spoken with, indigenous women and those who have been trafficked will face the most risk."

So one big argument is that C36 makes the situation worst for the safety of women in sex work, yet I'm wrong even though you're own arguments are saying the same things that I do. :noidea:

Cheers Gentlemen,

Merlot

 

[PopeDover]

How far would you like to rig this discussion in your favor?

Which discussion? The one you're having or the one other people are having? You went off in your own direction and created a straw man basically asking others to prove that bad things don't happen and that assholes don't exist. I can't do that so you win.

This issue isn't so simple to me though, as some others mentioned legality would have its pitfalls, at least in the US. Said assholes would probably be first in line to get jobs at the newly formed Department of Prostitution, now giving them more power over people in the industry than before. The entire regulatory structure would be created by ex-execs from McBrothel & Hairytaco Bell, i.e., the industry experts called on to head the DOP, while the honest Jessys, Jimmys, Martins & Mikes would all be squeezed out of business as compliance costs make small operations uncompetitive, and the rest of us are all left arguing whether the 50% up-charge for a BBHJ over a CHJ is worth it.

 

[Merlot]

Gentlemen

You went off in your own direction and created a straw man basically asking others to prove that bad things don't happen and that assholes don't exist. I can't do that so you win.

PopeDover, I only took the Captain's position of asking for proof and turned the burden around. As you suggest, it's unfair and almost impossible to do that for either side of the argument.

This issue isn't so simple to me though, as some others mentioned legality would have its pitfalls, ...The entire regulatory structure would be created by ex-execs from McBrothel & Hairytaco Bell, i.e., the industry experts called on to head the DOP, while the honest Jessys, Jimmys, Martins & Mikes would all be squeezed out of business as compliance costs make small operations uncompetitive, and the rest of us are all left arguing whether the 50% up-charge for a BBHJ over a CHJ is worth it.

True. But I am concerned with the safety of the ladies first.

I do not dispute that a dark side exists in this business, but I am not convinced that women in the lower-end of the business will see an improvement in their lives if sex work were magically eliminated. I think they would just make less money and have even shittier lives, and likely participate in more dangerous and violent crimes to get drug money. If definitely does not make sense to punish the higher-end providers (or their customers) that we all know and love because of the dark side of the industry that they are not part of.

There will always be poverty, exploitation, violence and drug abuse at the lowest segment of society, regardless of whether there is sex work. I am quite certain that the relatively higher pay available to sex workers has allowed more than a few ladies to have in fact escaped horrible family situations and horrible neighborhoods that would have caused them to have fallen victim to those bad things. Those are the untold stories that are the bright spot. Like it or not, money is everything, and that can end up being a good thing of bad thing. The dark side of life is not going away, sex work or not.

"Dark Side". OUCH!!! You are describing situations I've been blasted for.

You are both right. There would be positives and negatives of all kinds depending on what your roles and interests/viewpoints are in this industry.

Cheers,

Merlot

 

[CaptRenault]

http://www.canadianwomen.org/facts-about-sex-trafficking-in-canada

Isn’t sex trafficking more of a problem in other countries, but not Canada?

In Canada, 93% of sex trafficking victims come from Canada, not other countries....

OOOOPS! But you deny all of this because your conscience says none of it ever happened. Right Capt. :crazy:

There you go again, Merlot.

This thread started out as a discussion of the decriminalization of prostitution and not the decriminalization of trafficking. Though opponents and proponents of the decriminalization of prostitution may not agree on the precise definition of trafficking, no one in Canada, the United States or any civilized country is arguing for the decriminalization of trafficking. Even I, the evil Capt. Renault, believe that trafficking should be against the law and violators should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

So why do you suddenly start citing "statistics" about trafficking? First, I don't accept at face value any statistics on trafficking published by a left-wing feminist, anti-prostitution organization like the Canadian Women's Foundation. More importantly, just like the prostitution abolitionists/prohibitionists, you are trying to equate the practices of prostitution and trafficking. Arguing for the equivalency of prostitution with trafficking is one of the main tactics used by left-wing, feminist anti-prostitution groups (conservative and religious anti-prostitution groups tend to use moral and religious arguments, with which I also disagree).

A well-known and respected scholar on the sex industry, Dr. Ronald Weitzer (professor of sociology at George Washington University, PhD from Cal Berkeley) has specifically addressed this topic in the following article. Here are the cite and some excerpts [emphasis mine]:

THE JOURNAL OF CRIMINAL LAW & CRIMINOLOGY
Vol. 101, No. 4 2012
SEX TRAFFICKING AND THE SEX INDUSTRY:THE NEED FOR EVIDENCE-BASED THEORY AND LEGISLATION
RONALD WEITZER

...In order to further discredit the practice of prostitution and delegitimize systems where prostitution is legal and regulated by the government, oppression writers have fused prostitution with sex trafficking.
Donna Hughes claims that “most ‘sex workers’ are or originally started out as trafficked women and girls.” She then calls for “re-linking trafficking and prostitution, and combating the commercial sex trade as a whole.”

There is no evidence that “most” or even the majority of prostitutes have been trafficked. It is important to recognize that as recently as fifteen years ago, trafficking was not a routine part of the discourse regarding prostitution.

Today, several analysts argue that prostitution has been socially constructed in a particular way through the trafficking prism and that there is no objective equivalence between the two. Prostitution involves a commercial transaction and trafficking is a process whereby a third party facilitates an individual’s involvement in sexual commerce. There is plenty of prostitution by independent operators that does not involve trafficking. And such independent enterprises may be growing with the help of internet-facilitated connections between sex workers and clients.

Some oppression writers are quite candid about their political reasons for linking trafficking with prostitution. Melissa Farley declares, “A false distinction between prostitution and trafficking has hindered efforts to abolish prostitution . . . . Since prostitution creates the demand for trafficking, the sex industry in its totality must be confronted.” The first sentence reveals that the ultimate goal is not the elimination of trafficking but rather the elimination of prostitution. Regarding the second sentence—asserting that “prostitution creates the demand for trafficking”—there is no compelling reason why prostitution would necessarily “demand” trafficked participants (if trafficking is defined as involving deception or force) or even willing migrants, and why it could not draw from a local pool of workers instead. In some places the local pool may be shallow and require migrants to meet demand, but this would not be sufficient to justify Farley’s claim regarding prostitution in general.

Despite the problematic way in which oppression writers have constructed trafficking, they have been remarkably successful in rebranding trafficking in a way that implicates all sex work. As one analyst wrote, the prohibitionists have “successfully transformed the ‘anti-trafficking’ movement into a modern, worldwide moral crusade against prostitution.” The prostitution–trafficking connection was fully embraced by the Bush administration, illustrated by the State Department’s webpage The Link Between Prostitution and Sex Trafficking, which claimed, inter alia, that prostitution “fuels trafficking in persons” and “fuel the growth of modern-day slavery.” The prohibitionist portrayal of trafficking clashes with an alternative, socioeconomic model that views trafficking as “a complex phenomenon driven by deep economic disparities between wealthy and poor communities and nations, and by inadequate labor and migration frameworks to manage their consequences.” Oppression writers often ignore socioeconomic forces and instead focus on individual actors: pimps, traffickers, clients, and female victims.

How is trafficking itself presented in oppression writings? Melodramatically. In an article representative of this literature (and published in this Journal), Iris Yen perceives a “pandemic of human trafficking.” She writes that sex trafficking is “appropriately” described as “sexual slavery” and that the individuals involved are “essentially slaves,” despite the fact that many of those who are trafficked are not held in slave-like conditions. She claims, without evidence, that “[t]raffickers routinely beat, rape, starve, confine, torture, and psychologically and emotionally abuse the women.” The magnitude of the problem is said to be “alarming,” but the figures Yen cites—14,500 to 100,000 trafficked into the U.S. every year—are incredibly wide-ranging and thus rather dubious. Yen then extrapolates from trafficking to prostitution: “Thus, contrary to the erroneous perception that prostitution is a victimless crime . . . too many victims have paid for their crime of poverty with devastated lives.” Bias is particularly evident in her emotive language, e.g., “the ugly truth of the commercial sex industry” and “egregious human rights abuses from the sex trade.”

These images of prostitution and trafficking abound throughout the writings of oppression theorists, but their accuracy is belied by their sweeping, unequivocal nature. Each of the above claims has been challenged by other analysts and by a body of research findings cited throughout this Article. The experiences of trafficked persons, in the migration process and in their working conditions, range along a broad continuum. Some individuals’ experiences fit the oppression model well, while others’ cluster at the opposite end. Many of those who migrate are responding to push factors such as the lack of economic opportunities in their home countries or the desire to provide a better life for family members, rather than the pull factor of nefarious traffickers...
_____________________________

You can read the rest of the article at the link I provided.

So, the statistics you cited are meaningless to me. Because of their source, I doubt their validity. In any case, I agree with Weitzer and I reject equating prostitution to trafficking. Prostitution prohibitionists equate these two phenomena in order to fool the public (and Merlot) into supporting their anti-prostitution crusade.

As for what happened to Mlle. Amanda, though I don't know her, I feel bad for her that a crazy man harassed her with vulgar text messages. However, I view what happened to her as an example of the bad things that happen to escorts when the anti-prostitution fanatics succeed in passing laws like C-36. If Amanda's line of work were fully decriminalized (for both her and her clients) then she would feel more confident in complaining to the police about the threats made against her.

In sum I am unequivocally in favor of the decriminalization of prostitution and opposed to the prostitution prohibitionists/abolitionists equating the issues of trafficking and prostitution.

 

[Siocnarf]

Merlot, simply put there is no such thing as meaningful statistic on sex work (or at least very few). Not in the sense that they are presented in the media.

When you see some news or article with 80% this and 1% that, it's either made up or misrepresented from studies on a very specific subgroup. Nobody knows exactly how many sex worker there are. The vast majority keep their life secret and don't participate to studies. Most studies are conducted on people in prison or in rehab or in shelter and are representative only of those subgroup. That's not to say the studies are meaningless but they are really not saying what people want them to say. Number on trafficking mean nothing, because they are a minuscule fraction of the estimated number of workers. Cases are litterally in the single or double digits, vs tens of thousands sex workers in the country.

You like people to cite references and that is a good sign of critical thinking. Here are a couple general reviews about research from serious people.
https://maggiemcneill.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/fact-or-fiction.pdf
http://www.policeprostitutionandpolitics.net/pdfs_all/Duplicate%20PDFS/prostitution%20mythology%202010-2.pdf

 

[Orange_Julep]

I can't believe you fall for this bullshit, Merlot. These number either mean absolutely nothing (93%) or are irrelevant (67%) or are made up (2872 and 10%) and thery are provided by a fundation that need donors.

You can't really 'make up' the n of surveys or public opinion poll results. Public opinion polls have become so precise that we're now able to predict vote proportion per party within one percentile days before an election. The 93% - that, I'll hand it to you, there's nothing about the data collection method that screams validity (then again, I don't know what source "ii" is). However, since you seem to have every scientific argument as to everything there is to know about prostitution in Canada and beyond, where do your numbers come from? I'm assuming you have other numbers, or at least, some form of verifiable knowledge, since you know 93% of sex trafficking victims in Canada being Canadian is so far away from reality that it constitutes "bullshit". I'll tell you, it doesn't seem like a far stretch at all to me that most victims of abuse - screw the trafficking political etiquette - in the sex trade would be young Canadian women, like I'd expect the majority of hot young escorts that are all the rave in Bangkok to be Thai. It does appear as a big inconvenience to your argument, though.

 

[Siocnarf]

What does human traffic data has to do with public opinion poll?

He doesn't say the 93% is wrong; he says it means nothing, even if the number happens to be right. This number just reflects police activity and doesn't inform us about most escorts who are never investigated by the police. Solid numbers *don't exist* because no one knows how many total sex workers there are. According to the police themselves, most workers are consenting; and that's the main point. What does it matter if 93% victims are form Canada or if 93% are from Uzbekistan? Abolitionists would use the big scary number for the same message anyway.

It shows also the perversion of language, as ''human trafficking'' has lost all meaning. This is suppose to refer to people brought into the country illegally and against their will or by being tricked. What do they even define as ''human traffick'' now? Most of the case are either underage or coerced by a pimp, and have nothing to do with immigration, so it's not surprising that they are mostly Canadian born. Victims of human traffic in the real sense cannot be Canadian by definition.

 

[amanda_001s]

J'utiliserai ici le Français, mais si vous souhaitez une traduction, il me fera plaisir de vous la fournir, globalement.

Après que Merlot m'ait demandé la permission de me citer en exemple, je me suis empressée de trouver le post en question. Bien que je sois en faveur de la décriminalisation de la prostitution, il est légitime d'ouvrir les yeux face aux divers problèmes liés à l'industrie du sexe. Il y a définitievement quelque chose de pourri... Il ne s'agit pas toujours de contes de fées...Adresser les problématiques me semble juste.

Oui le traffic existe, oui la prostitution juvénile est plus commune que l'on croit et oui, l'exploitation et le pimpage sont monnaies courantes. Je ne parle pas de cas dramatiques ici, cas dignes de blockbusters Holywoodiens. Je parle de filles de 16-17ans qui souhaitent pouvoir s'acheter de jolies choses comme leur grande soeur, ou telle célébrité instagram. De jeunes filles qui veulent de belles robes, de belles chaussures et qui prennent de pauvres décisions qui vont impacter leur vie plus qu'elles ne le croient. Des filles qui insécures recherchent l'amour aux endroits les moins propices, qui recherchent leur Ride or Die et rêvent de devenir des Trap Queen,merci à l'industrie du Hip Hop. Des jeunes filles qui ne sont aucunement forcées, mais qui sont très certainement manipulées, décidant de par elles même donner leur argent durement gagné (car argent rapide ne veut pas dire argent facile) à leur copain du moment contre une promesse d'amour. On parle ici de problématiques beaucoup plus insidieuses que ce que les médias aiment nous dépeindre. Je ne nie aucunement qu'il y ait un traffic sexuel beaucoup plus important, mais cela demeure un faible pourcentage, nous n'avons pas des frontières tel que l'Europe... Il est beaucoup plus difficile et couteux pour des organisations d'installer leur commerce illicite, ici. De plus, les personnes voulant profiter des fruits de la prostitution d'autrui ont compris que la violence contrairement a la manipulation attire l'attention, la chasse et le jeu sont d'autant plus excitants ou valorisants... La plupart des escortes que je connais et je ne m'exclus pas du lot sont des femmes intelligentes mais avec un besoin d'amour (au sens large, reconnaissance) incommensurable, de donner et de recevoir. Des femmes qui peuvent être aussi insécure que n'importe qui et ce même si elles recoivent des tonnes de compliments par semaine... Beaucoup sont aussi seules que certains d'entre-vous.

Le plus grand problème que j'ai contre les abolos, contre les féministes, contre toutes les instances qui croient que la décriminalisation n'est pas la solution et que le travail du sexe devrait etre enrayé est qu'ils nous mettent tous sans le même bateau. Donc je suis une victime, vous souhaitez m'aider, mais vous me museler ? N'ais-je pas le droit à la parole ? Pourquoi le témoignage des travailleuses du sexe successfull n'est jamais prit en compte. Pourquoi ? C'est pourtant insensée, surtout lorsque nous représentons la plus grand part du marché.... Je cotoie des femmes magnifiques et je crois pouvoir affirmer que les stéréotypes dont nous sommes victimes ne sont pas représentatifs...

Oui il existe de mauvaise escortes. Il existe aussi de mauvais clients. Il existe des femmes a qui la prostitution fera plus de mal que de bien. Mais il existe aussi des femmes pour qui la prostitution est naturelle et non contraignante. J'aimerais pouvoir dire a haute voix ; j'aime ca me faire sauter, et j'aime également me faire rémunérer pour mon temps, pas pour mon corps que je ''vends'', alors que soyons honnête, je ne prête pas mon corps, je ne le vend certainement pas.... Nous ne sommes pas des poupées de porcelaine.

Décriminaliser la prostitution c'est donner moins de pouvoir aux stéréotypes dont sont quotidiennement victime les travailleuses du sexe. La décriminalisation c'est nous donner une voix. C'est nous permettre de travailler plus sécuritairement, de nous permettre d'aller chercher le soutien dont nous pourrions avoir besoin sans avoir honte, sans avoir peur des repercussions. C'est un pas vers l'acceptation. Nous ne devrions pas être considérés comme des parias, ni vous, clients comme des débauchés ou encore des pervers... Pas plus que Pute, Salope, Whore, slut, cock sucker ne devraient considérés comme des insultes. J'ai envie de vivre dans une société ou je me sens en sécurité lorsque je pratique mon emploi, et je crois pouvoir affirmer hors de tous doutes que la plupart des filles que je connais seraient très heureuses d'être taxé et d'avoir des reglementations comme n'importe quel domaine en échange de sécurité. Qui sait, dans mon utopie, l'argent pourrait même être utilisé pour aider les réelles victimes.

 

[johnywalker8647]

Well best statement, law change is not always for the best



r

If gays didn't challenge homosexuality laws in canada during the 60's it would have stayed a criminal offense in 2015

 

[gugu]

Why the 93% means nothing? Becausethe report does not tell it's 93% of how many. 90% of 10 is 9, of a billion is 900 million. Reverdy gave the response to that one. How many cases over how many years? What can weconclude from the 90%? In the application of the new canadian law on trafficking, we have basically rebranded an old crime called pimping. Much more reliable stats usefull in finding tendencies are criminal accusations and convictions for combined trafficking and pimping. They are on steady decline almost everywhere both in Canada and the US.

Why the 67% is irrelevant? Because if LE is unable to assess the incidence of a crime, the general public assesment means nothing.

Why is the 2872 number made up? Well, it's made up by the respondants who have a clear tendancy to inflate numbers in the rescue industry to gain funding. Combine this with the 10%, an other made up non sense (nobody is capable to estimate such a percentage), It would mean we had around 287 trafficking cases reported to LE that same year. We are far from that.

A small note on Operation Spotlight: when LE talk about rescuying 18 women, it's a priliminary assesment based only on declaration by those women. That's not sufficient to classify them as trafficked victims.

Merlot, the case in point here is not the existence of abuse: it's ulseless to provide anecdotal cases. Nobody needs to be convinced by anecdotal evidence. But that does not say anything about the severity of a problem. Crime is on the decline almost everywhere in USA and Canada, rapidly ans consistently for at least 20 years. Sex work related accusations have followed the same tendancies, both in USA and Canada. Part of it may be due to changes in priorities of prosecutors and LE, but I doubt very much it's only that.

 

[johnywalker8647]

. I have found the statements that women who are unattractive are against this because they can't make money off of sex work silly.

women who are unattractive are against it not because they can't make money off of sex work but because sex workers who are more attractive compete them

 

[Merlot]

Gentlemen,

So why do you suddenly start citing "statistics" about trafficking?

You were demanding proof of any kind of abuse within the sex work industry. There you go. You also refused to acknowledge Amanda's trouble with guys making some large threats or that the incident indicated the same situation i was talking about.

A number of people have now acknowledged the darker side of the industry. That's all I was saying. I didn't see any need to go further until you tried to act as if the situation was some kind of La La Land of endless happiness. If you had just been reasonable like the others it would have stopped there. Instead you tried everything to attack.

And Captain, if you had read the article it does mention trafficking.

https://www.amnesty.org/latest/news...olicy-to-protect-human-rights-of-sex-workers/

The policy has drawn from an extensive evidence base from sources including UN agencies, such as the World Health Organization, UNAIDS, UN Women and the UN Special Rapporteur on the Right to Health. We have also conducted research in four countries.
The consultation included sex worker groups, groups representing survivors of prostitution, abolitionist organizations, feminist and other women's rights representatives, LGBTI activists, anti- trafficking agencies and HIV/AIDS organizations.

Amnesty International considers human trafficking abhorrent in all of its forms, including sexual exploitation, and should be criminalized as a matter of international law. This is explicit in this new policy and all of Amnesty International’s work.

18 women rescued in Canada-wide human-trafficking investigation: police

'Chasing the money': Sex workers lured to oil-rich Alberta, undercover human-trafficking probe finds

Trafficking in Persons Report 2015

http://www.state.gov/j/tip/rls/tiprpt/2015/index.htm

Are you going to chastise Reverdy for going on with this Captain?

The Canadian Women's Foundation relied on a report by the RCMP on Human Trafficking when it came up with the statement that "In Canada, 93% of sex trafficking victims come from Canada, not other countries".

http://www.canadianwomen.org/facts-about-sex-trafficking-in-canada

After digging a bit, one finds out that while they are making reference to a report by the RCMP, they are in fact quoting the National Action Plan to Combat Human Trafficking, which was published in March 2014:

Now does Gugu still say it's all BS.

You have to look at reports critically and reasonably. Knee-jerk dismissal of stats because you don't like the organization publishing them is very short-sighted. None of us like the grossly unfair characterizations the industry has been painted with by politicians for their personal agendas. Still negative issues exist. Brushing them aside for whatever reason puts those who have faced those issues at greater risk. You can't look at Amanda's posts in the other thread and say, hell, that's a rare aberration. It's indicative of something going on, and even if the original stats had not come from the RCMP you simply can't call it BS. Whether the reality is 90% or 5%, 5% is still about human life.

Crime is on the decline almost everywhere in USA and Canada, rapidly ans consistently for at least 20 years. Sex work related accusations have followed the same tendancies, both in USA and Canada. Part of it may be due to changes in priorities of prosecutors and LE, but I doubt very much it's only that.

https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/20...3-released/crime-statistics-for-2013-released

Crime declining is very good. About 1,160,000 cases of violent crime in the U.S. in 2013 versus 1,330,000 in 2009. There's still a hell of a lot of it. That's bad.

The point is everybody puts their own take on numbers even if they are doing their best to be honest.

Après que Merlot m'ait demandé la permission de me citer en exemple, je me suis empressée de trouver le post en question. Bien que je sois en faveur de la décriminalisation de la prostitution, il est légitime d'ouvrir les yeux face aux divers problèmes liés à l'industrie du sexe. Il y a définitievement quelque chose de pourri... Il ne s'agit pas toujours de contes de fées...Adresser les problématiques me semble juste.

Merci Amanda. Je souhaite que vous faites bien, et ces gens qui vous ont donné tant de peine ai été exposé et traité par la police. Tout le monde vous souhaite expériences heureux et en sécurité. Meilleurs voeux.

Cheers,

Merlot

 

[CaptRenault]

You also refused to acknowledge Amanda's trouble with guys making some large threats or that the incident indicated the same situation i was talking about.

I didn't acknowledge your reference to Amanda? Then what was this?

As for what happened to Mlle. Amanda, though I don't know her, I feel bad for her that a crazy man harassed her with vulgar text messages. However, I view what happened to her as an example of the bad things that happen to escorts when the anti-prostitution fanatics succeed in passing laws like C-36. If Amanda's line of work were fully decriminalized (for both her and her clients) then she would feel more confident in complaining to the police about the threats made against her.

She has my sympathy, but I did not conclude that the example of one escort being harassed by text and phone calls is proof of anything, anymore than I would conclude anything from a report that one client had a bad experience with a Montreal escort.

And Captain, if you had read the article it does mention trafficking...Amnesty International considers human trafficking abhorrent in all of its forms, including sexual exploitation, and should be criminalized as a matter of international law. This is explicit in this new policy and all of Amnesty International’s work.

Merlot, you sound so much like the prostitution prohibitionists and abolitionists when you raise the issue of trafficking during a discussion of the decriminalization of prostitution. As I pointed out, I think trafficking is and should remain illegal (for the record, so should murder, rape and pillaging :lol: ). But I oppose introducing trafficking into a discussion of the decriminalization of prostitution because the prostitution prohibitionists and abolitionists use the tactic of equating prostitution and trafficking in order to rally support for their cause. So, Merlot, keep doing what you're doing-the anti prostituion movement loves it. Just don't tell them you also pay for sex with "trafficked women" (escorts)!

This thread started out as a discussion of the decriminalization of prostitution and not the decriminalization of trafficking. Though opponents and proponents of the decriminalization of prostitution may not agree on the precise definition of trafficking, no one in Canada, the United States or any civilized country is arguing for the decriminalization of trafficking. Even I, the evil Capt. Renault, believe that trafficking should be against the law and violators should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

So why do you suddenly start citing "statistics" about trafficking? First, I don't accept at face value any statistics on trafficking published by a left-wing feminist, anti-prostitution organization like the Canadian Women's Foundation. More importantly, just like the prostitution abolitionists/prohibitionists, you are trying to equate the practices of prostitution and trafficking. Arguing for the equivalency of prostitution with trafficking is one of the main tactics used by left-wing, feminist anti-prostitution groups (conservative and religious anti-prostitution groups tend to use moral and religious arguments, with which I also disagree).

A well-known and respected scholar on the sex industry, Dr. Ronald Weitzer (professor of sociology at George Washington University, PhD from Cal Berkeley) has specifically addressed this topic in the following article. Here are the cite and some excerpts [emphasis mine]:

THE JOURNAL OF CRIMINAL LAW & CRIMINOLOGY
Vol. 101, No. 4 2012
SEX TRAFFICKING AND THE SEX INDUSTRY:THE NEED FOR EVIDENCE-BASED THEORY AND LEGISLATION
RONALD WEITZER

...In order to further discredit the practice of prostitution and delegitimize systems where prostitution is legal and regulated by the government, oppression writers have fused prostitution with sex trafficking.
Donna Hughes claims that “most ‘sex workers’ are or originally started out as trafficked women and girls.” She then calls for “re-linking trafficking and prostitution, and combating the commercial sex trade as a whole.”

There is no evidence that “most” or even the majority of prostitutes have been trafficked. It is important to recognize that as recently as fifteen years ago, trafficking was not a routine part of the discourse regarding prostitution...

 

[Siocnarf]

Knee-jerk dismissal of stats because you don't like the organization publishing them is very short-sighted.

One of the main reason we don't like abolitionists groups is precisely because they use bullshit studies. Their studies are not peer-reviewed, usually have flawed methodology and no scientific standard. If you read the links I put above it is explained very well. It's actually very simple: any group who relies on Melissa Farley loses all scientific credibility and can safely be dismissed as easily as you would dismiss a flat-earth proponent.

 

[CaptRenault]

Here's a video lol showing the reaction of the leader of the Abolish Prostitution movement in Canada to the news about the Amnesty International report on decriminalization:

https://youtu.be/3dp2LtrwSW8


I know, Godwin's Law, but the video is funny.

 

[Aka]

Isnt it funny that the main Russian state news agency has the most open and positive coverage of this issue?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-gYJmMN1_c

 

[heliragedeleted]

Not sure if anyone else has posted this, but it is an interesting follow-up after the vote, and an excellent discussion of the state of affairs throughout the world and gives a lot of interesting history.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/08/magazine/should-prostitution-be-a-crime.html?_r=1

Excellent article, thanks patron, also includes the two main driving ideologies. One the feminist point of vue which is ideology driven and the other which is more practical,where complete légalisation of prostitution is favoured.
Mankind seems to favor a state of eternal dichotomy.