Are Quebec's anglophones at risk?

[Techman]

t76, actually I am a francophone that was educated in the English school system. If I had kids I could send them wherever I wanted to.

When it comes to immigration, Quebec has control and the current level is around 46,000 per year. Most of them are French speaking. And all their children are forced to be educated in French schools. So even if the French birthrate is down, they still are able to have children sent to their school system. The English community does not have this option. As their birthrate declines there is no immigration to help their school system survive.

Look, basically you can't force a culture on people. Immigrants have their own which they bring with them and which they will not give up. Anglophones resent having French forced down their throats but for the most part they deal with it. Then we have Herouxville and now Brownsburg-Chatham who want to pass a law prohibiting any religious clothing in public, including the Jewish tradition of wearing the Yarmulke. How can the majority expect the minorities to want to join them if they are always being attacked for their language, their beliefs and their way of dressing themselves?

Discriminatory laws are useless. All they do is cause people to resent those who pass them. If a culture is destined to survive it will do so on it's own merits. All the laws in the world will not be successful in preserving it.

We can either work together to build a great society or continue to spend years at each others throats in a futile attempt to prove that one culture is better than all the rest. Which is the better idea?

Techman

 

[z/m(Ret)]

[...]unless there's a conspiracy theory going around that Quebec has in the cards to eradicate the English population.

Don't give anyone any idea.

 

[Techman]

Ziggy, maybe it wasn't clear enough for you but what I meant is that the English community does not have the option of immigration to prop up their school system. All immigrants have to go to french shools, even those from the US, England or any other country in the world.

Wakarimas ka?

 

[General Gonad]

So let's take 'History 101' off the curriculum - screw the national anthem...

Good idea, after all the French and English ethnics (yes, we are ALL ethnics) slaughtered the indigenous population of Canada but that little tidbit is omitted from History 101.

GG

 

[z/m(Ret)]

Ziggy, maybe it wasn't clear enough for you but what I meant is that the English community does not have the option of immigration to prop up their school system. All immigrants have to go to french shools, even those from the US, England or any other country in the world.

Wakarimas ka?

Neither do Germans living in Northern Italy, etc, etc...

Verstehen Sie?

 

[Techman]

And Hérouxville doesn't define Quebec any better than English Canada's reaction to the Supreme Court ruling that Sikhs could wear the turban in the RCMP. This is when the reasonable accomodation debate began.

Actually I believe that Hérouxville is a rather accurate example of the Quebec
populace outside of Montreal.

And as much as Quebec likes to pretend that it isn't part of Canada, it still is. There are still TWO official languages in Canada, even if there aren't in the xenophobic paradise that is Quebec. And there are still English schools here and people should be able to use them if they so choose. As far as I'm concerned, if there were public schools in any other language they should have the right to use those also! And STOP comparing Quebec to other countries that do not have TWO official languages!!!

Some people here may be willing to bend over for the French majority in this province but the only way I will ever do that is when they are all puckered up and ready to kiss my ass.

I swear that there are some posters in this thread that would have lined up to enroll their kids in German language classes in 1940's France.

 

[General Gonad]

If I had my way Canada would have a right of say in the provincial jurisdiction of education in one area: we impose ONE history class in highschool - that no matter where you live in this country, you'll have to take - and that history class will be tailored by historians not demagogues or ideologues

Agreed but don't hold your breath.

GG

 

[sapman99]

Actually I believe that Hérouxville is a rather accurate example of the Quebec populace outside of Montreal.

And as much as Quebec likes to pretend that it isn't part of Canada, it still is. There are still TWO official languages in Canada, even if there aren't in the xenophobic paradise that is Quebec. And there are still English schools here and people should be able to use them if they so choose. As far as I'm concerned, if there were public schools in any other language they should have the right to use those also! And STOP comparing Quebec to other countries that do not have TWO official languages!!!

(snip)

I swear that there are some posters in this thread that would have lined up to enroll their kids in German language classes in 1940's France.

Techman, in the beginning of this thread you said this was about Quebec, not the rest of Canada, when WE wanted to use those decimated French communities as mirrors. Others here have shown the dismal state of French services outside Quebec so I would stow that argument. Laws are not the only way to deny things. Lack of funding also works...

I lived in the Hull area for a long time and resent the allusion comparing the rest of Québec to Herouxville, please restrain yourself. Can we talk about what happened in the Soo a few years back?

 

[Techman]

Which means absolutely nothing for those educated in English outside of Canada. They still have to go to French schools.

 

[Techman]

And what lies have I been posting here? I have posted my opinion and I have been posting facts. If you have a problem with my opinion, so be it. We are all entitled to our opinions and you do not have to agree with mine or I with yours. But tell me what lies I have posted?

 

[ParChance]

You will have to excuse me if I don’t express myself properly or as eloquently as Ziggy or some here are able to because English is not my 1st language.

I love when I read some writings on this topic and how they quote journals, newspaper articles & governmental studies (I’ll NOT comment on those inane statistics) on this topic, rather than going to sources who have actually lived atrocities such as genocide & ethnic cleansing.

I lived it, my ancestors lived and my experience has nothing at all to do with language and never has. It has to do with my core beliefs as to who I am and what I believe in, with respect to how I manage and run my life, not only on a daily routine basis but the very ethics & morals that I believe to be necessary for myself.

Language is a manner of how you communicate with someone and it doesn’t have to be connected with a culture. I am a Jewish holocaust survivor pushing my late Eighties and I can communicate with you in many languages some being Russian, Spanish, Hebrew, Yiddish, German, English & French (the latter learned here, although I struggle with it deeply) but my culture, that I’m proudest of is not a language because languages live, change & sometimes die but true culture never dies unless those who claim that they are proudest of it, don’t stand up for it’s meanings & contributions for themselves and the society in which they exist.

I was born in Germany and I watched how a small group of disenfranchised bitter individuals turned a society against it’s weakest and played on the underlyings of it’s own bigotry and racism and blamed others for their own shortcomings and failures. The strength of any segment of any society is to build themselves from within, in their hearts, minds and souls. No one ever said that it is easy to grow up and mature but everyone has to do it, even societal groups, to be able to contribute in whatever way we both as individuals and as a member of our birthright.

I watched my young wife, child, parents and sibling get shot dead as we were running for our very lives away from people who were turned into monsters because a few cowards were unable to take responsibility for their own and their society’s failings. I was the only one who escaped alive and made my exit through and to the underground resistance and because of my ability to speak many languages and my fierce desire to survive, even though my loved ones were dead. I saw the end of the war and through a series of life’s happenstances I immigrated to Montreal Canada, that I knew next to nothing of and trusted even less. I finally found work in a small shop after failing at a few illustrious jobs along the way of my new life. One day as I my feet were throbbing after standing on them for what seemed like an eternity, probably only 10 hours (can’t remember) a man walked into the store, noticed my accent & I his, so he asked me where I was born in Europe and what my REAL last name was. Most Jews of that era were too afraid to use their true family names so they either made it up, when they arrived off a boat to a Canada immigration officer, to not sound like a Jewish name or in their limited knowledge of English, they took such words from precious metals such as Gold and Silver, as they knew nothing else. In my case I just dropped a latter part of my family name that made it sound like it was from Jewish descent. I was able to, seeing as I was an English translator (yeah right, gotta hear me talk) for the underground. When I told this man my unusual real last name, he immediately paused, took a step back and told me that he knows of someone born in the same town with the same unusual last name and this man’s 1st name and this man was currently living in New York City. And it’s like my heart stopped, could it be I asked myself, but I had no more tears left to cry. I left the store on Ste Catherine St & headed right over to Windsor Station and took a train to meet this man in New York. Yes upon arriving there I discovered that it was my brother, who I thought dead and he thought I was as well. I cannot tell you what the feelings that transpired between us as we were each other’s only family. We soon confirmed to each other in horrifying privacy what each of us had seen that in fact no one else was alive but he and I.

It’s true that Quebec nationalists, separatists or whatever they currently wish to call themselves don’t for the most part advocate violence. When people feel disenfranchised for their views, angers fester and the easiest way to douse those fires of anger from within, is to look upon the weakest in any society rather than stand up not only for what’s ethically and morally right but like true believers in one’s culture to create institutions that not only promote, encourage and teach their young of the pride that they must have of past generations but impress upon them the necessity to do so with their own children. This doesn’t just happen, it takes work and love for one’s culture and sacrifice. No governmental decree, law or act will be successful in doing so because only people, REAL people have the heart, drive and unwavering unelected love for that culture.

 

[z/m(Ret)]

And what lies have I been posting here? I have posted my opinion and I have been posting facts. If you have a problem with my opinion, so be it. We are all entitled to our opinions and you do not have to agree with mine or I with yours. But tell me what lies I have posted?

You're also entitled to the opinion that French-speaking Canadians are conspiring to make beavers and maple trees extinct if you wish. While you're at it, why don't you ask Amnesty International to investigate the "ethnic cleansing" that is going on in Quebec. Show them the "facts" that you've presented on this discussion thread. Good luck...

 

[z/m(Ret)]

Techman in East Timor

Parchance,

Thank you for this story. You know when you were telling me to stop being emotional about people throwing around words like ethnic cleansing? It is precisely because I know there are more people with stories like yours and I think it is a disrespect to them and their REAL suffering to throw around words like that like they mean nothing. Canadians - anglos and francos - don't realise how lucky they are. We could all do better to be more grateful for what we have, even if what we have isnt perfection - just the more reason to thrive for it instead of complaining.

t76

T_76,

Did I ever tell you that I was in Dili, the capital city of East Timor while Indonesian death squad Kopassus (trained by U.S. Green Berets, btw - I had to throw that one in) was conducting special operations against Timorese independentist leaders? Of course I did. Things have calmed down there from the day interfet moved in and since fuckhead Suharto died.

But I wish there existed a time machine I would set to any date between 1975 and 1999 and put Techman et al on a plane to East Timor for personal edification.

I swear he would think twice before using expressions like "ethnic cleansing".

No, after all, I wouldn't want Timorese to live through the atrocities once again.

 

[Techman]

t76, the presence of a French community in Alberta does not qualify them as a 'culture'. They are part of the larger French Canadian culture, even though the majority of French Canadians in Quebec don't really give a damn about them anyways. There are also no laws against them posting signs in their own language or limiting the size of their language on signs.

Give Quebec another 30 years and see how many Anglos remain here and how many English institutions still remain English. Who said that things had to move quickly to be successful?

And here, I'll make a little change for you...Anglo Quebecers are one of the most bilingual groups in Canada. Happy now?

Ziggy...thank you for sharing another one of 'Ziggy's Travels' with us. I can't wait for the book. You continue to insist that ethnic cleansing has to be accompanied by extreme violence. I don't share that view. I believe that it can also be accomplished by using discriminatory laws and policies to achieve the desired result. Which in this case is that of a French only Quebec where the English community, institutions and population have been eliminated. Disagree all you want, I really don't care.

So I'm still waiting for those 'lies' I posted. Maybe some of my facts were in error. I guess I'm not perfect like some here claim to be. But at least I'm not trying to use events from all over the world and from all points in history to justify my beliefs. Or to minimize what is happening here in Quebec.

Techman

 

[z/m(Ret)]

Voice of reason,

"Ethnic cleansing" was introduced in the political discourse as a more palatable way of saying "genocide". In this context, you are guilty of sensationalism. Sensationalism [edited for typo] only serves to distort the facts.

The voice still makes itself heard but where's the reason been hiding lately?

Anyway if it's so bad here you can always pack your stuff and get the hell out of this province a.s.a.p. No one's holding you back.

 

[General Gonad]

great post

I love when I read some writings on this topic and how they quote journals, newspaper articles & governmental studies (I’ll NOT comment on those inane statistics) on this topic, rather than going to sources who have actually lived atrocities such as genocide & ethnic cleansing.

I lived it, my ancestors lived and my experience has nothing at all to do with language and never has. It has to do with my core beliefs as to who I am and what I believe in, with respect to how I manage and run my life, not only on a daily routine basis but the very ethics & morals that I believe to be necessary for myself.

Language is a manner of how you communicate with someone and it doesn’t have to be connected with a culture. I am a Jewish holocaust survivor pushing my late Eighties and I can communicate with you in many languages some being Russian, Spanish, Hebrew, Yiddish, German, English & French (the latter learned here, although I struggle with it deeply) but my culture, that I’m proudest of is not a language because languages live, change & sometimes die but true culture never dies unless those who claim that they are proudest of it, don’t stand up for it’s meanings & contributions for themselves and the society in which they exist.

ParChance,

Thank you for sharing your personal struggles and thoughts with us. I think you cast a whole new light on this debate. The history of Jews, Armenians, Greeks and many others shows that language, culture and religion can survive even under the most brutal and repressive conditions. People who throw terms like 'ethnic cleansing' around very loosely are demonstrating their ignorance to some of mankind's most important historical lessons and they are insulting without even realizing it.

Once again, thank you very much for sharing your personal struggles and experience with us.

GG

 

[sapman99]

t76, the presence of a French community in Alberta does not qualify them as a 'culture'. They are part of the larger French Canadian culture, even though the majority of French Canadians in Quebec don't really give a damn about them anyways.

Je te remercie du fond de mon coeur pour ça! You are really showing your colours here, painting most French Quebecers with that wide brush of yours. I felt you were a nice guy, apart from this obsession of yours. I am sad to come to a different conclusion based on your inflammatory remarks in this thread. Besides, if we go back in the thread, I can demonstrate by quoting you that you do not seem to care very much for French minorities in the rest of Canada yourself.

There are also no laws against them posting signs in their own language or limiting the size of their language on signs.

and no funds or services to their community

... insist that ethnic cleansing has to be accompanied by extreme violence. I don't share that view. I believe that it can also be accomplished by using discriminatory laws and policies

Like not funding French-Canadian schools and hospitals, and not offering services to the community. It's all well and fine that maybe there are no "discriminatory" laws in other provinces, but if they don't fund services, the end result is even worse

 

[Techman]

Techman,

So if it's so bad here you can always pack your stuff and get the hell out of this province a.s.a.p. No one's holding you back.

101 or the 401 is that it? I seem to remember that being painted all over the place not that many years ago. Along with stop signs being painted to read '101'. Is that the best you can do Ziggy? Maybe you should go and buy some spray paint.


Sapman99, I'm only taking my lead from the separatist leaders in this province who have on numerous occasions stated that the French outside of Quebec are not their concern. I don't see too many commissions being held in Quebec that are concerned with French outside this province. But we seem to have plenty of time and money to have a commission about 'reasonable accommodations'.


It's amazing that all I'm asking for is that we all work and live together as equals. How is that such an evil thing to wish for? Damn...I should be taken out and shot.

Techman

 

[General Gonad]

Historical lessons on language and culture

You continue to insist that ethnic cleansing has to be accompanied by extreme violence. I don't share that view. I believe that it can also be accomplished by using discriminatory laws and policies to achieve the desired result. Which in this case is that of a French only Quebec where the English community, institutions and population have been eliminated. Disagree all you want, I really don't care.

Techman,

I suggest you read some history books on the preservation of language, culture and religion under brutal regimes. Here is a short list:

1) History of the Jewish Holocaust
2) History of the Armenian Holocaust
3) History of Greeks under the Ottoman Empire (400 years of occupation)
4) Ukraine under Stalin's regime

And countless more historical lessons which refute your claim that there is a 'non-violent ethnic cleansing' going on here in Quebec. This claim is simply ridiculous.

There is a gross under-representation of ethnics and minorities in Quebec's public sector but this does not equate into ethnic cleansing.

GG

 

[sapman99]

Politicians=population -> NOT

Sapman99, I'm only taking my lead from the separatist leaders in this province who have on numerous occasions stated that the French outside of Quebec are not their concern.

I will agree with you on this wholeheartedly, I myself have had enough of Québec sovereigntists (as they prefer being called ROTFLMAO) portraying themselves as angels while the feds are bad ogres. I also remember some dingbat PQ guy saying Québecers had more in in common with Americans than with the rest of Canadians. All stuff meant to foster misunderstanding.

But to get back to your post, you said:

the majority of French Canadians in Quebec don't really give a damn about them anyways.

Saying the separatist politicians don't care is NOT the same thing as saying the population doesn't.

I see my views being equated to those of Jacques Parizeau, and I don't know why, but I become as red as a lobster.