Are Quebec's anglophones at risk?
- Thread starter General Gonad
- Start date
hormone,
Those allophones that you mare referring to, in the past were, by law, permitted to send their children to Quebec's English public school system, whereas today they are not permitted and must send their children to the French system. Some of them will choose to assimilate into either one of the 2 communities (English or French) but after that they have made their choice, chances are that they will remain there and choose to educate their offspring in whatever linguistic school system.
The numbers in terms of the allophones are an abberation as this will not recur as far as the Italian and Greek communities in the future. There aren't many immigrants in 2007 emigrating to North America from Greece or Italy.
The current crop of immigrants are now from 3rd world countries and they have no choice but to educate their children in the French system.
This doesn't not apply to the French community as all the immigrants must send their children in the French public school system.
Those allophones that you mare referring to, in the past were, by law, permitted to send their children to Quebec's English public school system, whereas today they are not permitted and must send their children to the French system. Some of them will choose to assimilate into either one of the 2 communities (English or French) but after that they have made their choice, chances are that they will remain there and choose to educate their offspring in whatever linguistic school system.
The numbers in terms of the allophones are an abberation as this will not recur as far as the Italian and Greek communities in the future. There aren't many immigrants in 2007 emigrating to North America from Greece or Italy.
The current crop of immigrants are now from 3rd world countries and they have no choice but to educate their children in the French system.
This doesn't not apply to the French community as all the immigrants must send their children in the French public school system.
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choice of community
Par Chance, I know what you mean and was expecting your reply, thank you.
The number of allophones is not an aberration. Even though schooled in french, many recent immigrant's children still use english as a first language outside/inside of the home, as a language of first intent. Only when spoken to in french will they switch. Like it or not (for us francos) the bigger attraction pole is North America, not Quebec. Like mentionned, TV, movies, internet, job migration/ advancement, all this will mandate English knowledge for decades to come and foster movement toward english. I had seens recent stats (sorry I cannot produce them, I am not GG who seems he has a reasearch team working for him....
) showing that "migration" to english or french pole was still split pretty much among the "allophone group".
Still on an almost daily occurence I witness groups of people conversing in English as one single person in that group is "not fluent enough". I am not talking about friends hosting a visitor... The tradition among French Canadians was always one of accomodation to the English side. Ok, we are not in the 40's-60's anymore. But I think it helps a lot to understand where we are coming from to understand current situation.
Par Chance, I know what you mean and was expecting your reply, thank you.
The number of allophones is not an aberration. Even though schooled in french, many recent immigrant's children still use english as a first language outside/inside of the home, as a language of first intent. Only when spoken to in french will they switch. Like it or not (for us francos) the bigger attraction pole is North America, not Quebec. Like mentionned, TV, movies, internet, job migration/ advancement, all this will mandate English knowledge for decades to come and foster movement toward english. I had seens recent stats (sorry I cannot produce them, I am not GG who seems he has a reasearch team working for him....
) showing that "migration" to english or french pole was still split pretty much among the "allophone group". Still on an almost daily occurence I witness groups of people conversing in English as one single person in that group is "not fluent enough". I am not talking about friends hosting a visitor... The tradition among French Canadians was always one of accomodation to the English side. Ok, we are not in the 40's-60's anymore. But I think it helps a lot to understand where we are coming from to understand current situation.
Assimilation -vs- Transculture
If we agree to look at the picture right-side up, it's French, not English, which survival constantly needs promotion, but let's take it from another angle.
Language assimilation occurs under several different circumstances but, ultimately, it's the weaker language that is being assimilated by the dominant one. If you view Quebec as a monolith, you see Anglophones being assimilated by the dominant French culture.
Conversely, look at Quebec within the wider contexts of North America and the internet/electronic media and the terms are suddenly reversed.
No resolute language policies and watch within the next few decades which community gets assimilated. Now if you were looking for a scenario likely to "relegate a society to the vivacity of Flin Flon, Manitoba", you just got yourself one.
Instead, we enjoy here the unique privilege of a transcultural society which is progressing towards general bilingualism.
Quite a different picture than the assimilation scenario.
First of all, I'm glad that the genocidal lexicon (no my choice of words, btw) is now out of the equation.ParChance said:
If we agree to look at the picture right-side up, it's French, not English, which survival constantly needs promotion, but let's take it from another angle.
Language assimilation occurs under several different circumstances but, ultimately, it's the weaker language that is being assimilated by the dominant one. If you view Quebec as a monolith, you see Anglophones being assimilated by the dominant French culture.
Conversely, look at Quebec within the wider contexts of North America and the internet/electronic media and the terms are suddenly reversed.
No resolute language policies and watch within the next few decades which community gets assimilated. Now if you were looking for a scenario likely to "relegate a society to the vivacity of Flin Flon, Manitoba", you just got yourself one.
Instead, we enjoy here the unique privilege of a transcultural society which is progressing towards general bilingualism.
Quite a different picture than the assimilation scenario.
T_76
First of all, very engaging and insightful post.
It's interesting that you mention how people have been living in this province for years yet can’t or won't say a word of French.
I happen to know a lot of people like that. I've worked with a few dozens, born here or arrived here at a very young age, grew up in Montreal or in the outskirts, got all their schooling in English, are working in English, shopping in English, order out in English, doing their banking in English, etc., never a word of French besides maybe an occasional "oui-oui" ever comes out of their mouths. These people I know are now aged between 35 and 50 y/o
Never a problem. They are all earning a living, consuming, reproducing, raising families in English as if the French culture didn't exist. Everyone around them seems willing to make up for their incapacity and unwillingness to speak French.
Everyone adapts to them. This is the reality.
The representation of reality is quite different though, far more problematic and antagonistic, as if two realities were running parallel.
First of all, very engaging and insightful post.
It's interesting that you mention how people have been living in this province for years yet can’t or won't say a word of French.
I happen to know a lot of people like that. I've worked with a few dozens, born here or arrived here at a very young age, grew up in Montreal or in the outskirts, got all their schooling in English, are working in English, shopping in English, order out in English, doing their banking in English, etc., never a word of French besides maybe an occasional "oui-oui" ever comes out of their mouths. These people I know are now aged between 35 and 50 y/o
Never a problem. They are all earning a living, consuming, reproducing, raising families in English as if the French culture didn't exist. Everyone around them seems willing to make up for their incapacity and unwillingness to speak French.
Everyone adapts to them. This is the reality.
The representation of reality is quite different though, far more problematic and antagonistic, as if two realities were running parallel.
ParChance said:
While in a way I do agree with PC, it was also a little tongue-in-cheek:sapman99 said:
- The was a poll about the maternal language of the posters here some months back, and it was a pretty even split bewteen French and English. Still, a majority of posting occurs in English. Hardly anyone ever gets a request for translating French posts into English, but the "rule" of "have one unilingual English in the room and all the francos switch" still applies. I do not mind mostly posting in English. When I came on to MERB I knew it was about Montréal, and mostly English (posts-wise). Pretty tolerant of me, right?
In a situation like this, maybe one day either a separate board or another section of this board could be opened up for French-only posting. If a guy really wanted to go hog-wild, he could post and translate all his reviews. Phew, lotsa work
. But it would be less frustrating, than scanning throught posts some of us dont understand, and wished we did. Or, we could learn our neighbour`s (and friend`s, hopefully) language.- That what ParChance was aksing for MERB, Québécois are asking for Québec. Speaking another language than French is fine, but the official language of Quebec is French. Pas dur à comprendre (not hard to understand).
Beau Dommage...
How approriate that it would be THIS band?
Indulge me in a short story: a lady I know here is in her lates 30's. She is basically uniligual English, and has lived here I think 15 or more years.
The other day while hanging out, something reminds me of a song from "Beau Dommage" (for out-of towners, they were one of the seminal Québec music scene bands of the 1970's, partly responsible for making francophone Québec music pouplar with young people again). They were popular enough that I found their albums in record stores on Yonge street in Toronto in the early 1980's.
My friend had no clue who they were, and she does like popular music. I felt sad. For both of us.
It pointed out two facts: yes it seems possible to live here while not knowing the language and culture of the majority. To me, a real-world proof that the English here don't have it so bad at all.
How approriate that it would be THIS band?
Indulge me in a short story: a lady I know here is in her lates 30's. She is basically uniligual English, and has lived here I think 15 or more years.
The other day while hanging out, something reminds me of a song from "Beau Dommage" (for out-of towners, they were one of the seminal Québec music scene bands of the 1970's, partly responsible for making francophone Québec music pouplar with young people again). They were popular enough that I found their albums in record stores on Yonge street in Toronto in the early 1980's.
My friend had no clue who they were, and she does like popular music. I felt sad. For both of us.
It pointed out two facts: yes it seems possible to live here while not knowing the language and culture of the majority. To me, a real-world proof that the English here don't have it so bad at all.
To sum up my thoughts...
Since I started this thread, let me sum up my thoughts:
I think all this talk of Anglophones in peril is pure nonsense. Montreal is the most multi-ethnic city in Canada where people are bilingual and often trilingual. Bill 101 is a good thing because it forces people to send their kids to French schools. If you want to remain in Quebec, you'd better learn French. One area that needs major improvement is the inadequate representation of all minorities in Quebec's civil service. The government of Quebec needs to take concrete measures to diversify the labor pool in the public sector. Don't hold your breath.
GG
Since I started this thread, let me sum up my thoughts:
I think all this talk of Anglophones in peril is pure nonsense. Montreal is the most multi-ethnic city in Canada where people are bilingual and often trilingual. Bill 101 is a good thing because it forces people to send their kids to French schools. If you want to remain in Quebec, you'd better learn French. One area that needs major improvement is the inadequate representation of all minorities in Quebec's civil service. The government of Quebec needs to take concrete measures to diversify the labor pool in the public sector. Don't hold your breath.
GG
GG, it would make no difference how many Anglos are in the public service. That would have absolutely no effect on the overall situation and would do nothing to ensure the survival of English schools or institutions.
And will ensure the loss of English schools. What would be wrong with allowing parents to send their children to English schools with a French immersion program? This way the English school system would survive and the kids would still become proficient in the French language. Ah yes...they would also become proficient in English and that's a bad thing here in Quebec.
And as far as learning English from involvement in sports associations and the internet and television and music...well I don't think most websites kids visit or music they listen to, rap for example, are great places to learn proper language or grammar.
Sap, when it comes to Quebec music...I doubt that "Beau Dommage" or any other French artist spends much time trying to get airplay or advertising anywhere outside of Quebec. You could cross the border into the US and you will discover that most English Canadian artists are unknown there also, other than a few breakthroughs such as Shania or Celine.
And in case you have forgotten...
Many of these bands gained popularity during the rise of the separatist movement during that time period and much of their music, and Quebec in general, was not really appreciated by English Canada at that time.
Techman
And will ensure the loss of English schools. What would be wrong with allowing parents to send their children to English schools with a French immersion program? This way the English school system would survive and the kids would still become proficient in the French language. Ah yes...they would also become proficient in English and that's a bad thing here in Quebec.
And as far as learning English from involvement in sports associations and the internet and television and music...well I don't think most websites kids visit or music they listen to, rap for example, are great places to learn proper language or grammar.
Sap, when it comes to Quebec music...I doubt that "Beau Dommage" or any other French artist spends much time trying to get airplay or advertising anywhere outside of Quebec. You could cross the border into the US and you will discover that most English Canadian artists are unknown there also, other than a few breakthroughs such as Shania or Celine.
And in case you have forgotten...
Many of these bands gained popularity during the rise of the separatist movement during that time period and much of their music, and Quebec in general, was not really appreciated by English Canada at that time.
Techman
Techman said:
Techman,
It would make a huge difference if all minorities, including Anglos, had some more representation in the civil service.
English schools with French immersion are a joke.
As far as I am concerned, let them die. I do not care. It's time that people accept we live in a French province so you should send your kids to French elementary and high school. English CEGEPS will not die, nor will English universities. Montreal continues to be Canada's most multi-ethnic city where young kids are bilingual and trilingual. Go to McGill, University of Montreal, Concordia and listen to students regularly speaking French, English, and a whole host of other languages. It's amazing. Open your eyes and stop whining and spreading nonsense of 'ethnic cleansing'. This city is the future and English will not die as many of you contend. If anything, the rest of Quebec and maybe Canada will follow in Montreal's footsteps, not the other way around.
GG
Qualité de l'anglais, qualité du français: même combat
La correction grammaticale et orthographique tient plus aux valeurs éducatives et culturelles inculquées par les parents et aux habitudes de lecture et d'écriture, qu'à l'enseignement prodigué dans les écoles. Or, ces valeurs et habitudes sont fortement concurrencées par la culture populaire et des valeurs qui mettent l'emphase sur la communication rapide et familière.
La demande pressante d'un enseignement qui se veut mieux adapté aux réalités du marché du travail a aussi pour effet de dévaloriser matières et cours qui ont longtemps contribué à la qualité de la langue.
L'école, d'enseignement anglais ou français, peu importe, ne fait que respirer l'air du temps: la lecture des grandes oeuvres classiques, le mode d'apprentissage priviligié d'une époque qui a fait ses preuves, a pratiquement disparu au profit d'un enseignement visant à former des technocrates.
Le résultat est que plus de la moitié des étudiants candidats aux programmes universitaires échouent aux examens d'entrée les plus élémentaires.
Les étudiants qui se démarquent à ce niveau sont souvent ceux qui ont compensé leurs lacunes par un enseignement autodidacte.
Techman,Techman said:And as far as learning English from involvement in sports associations and the internet and television and music...well I don't think most websites kids visit or music they listen to, rap for example, are great places to learn proper language or grammar.
La correction grammaticale et orthographique tient plus aux valeurs éducatives et culturelles inculquées par les parents et aux habitudes de lecture et d'écriture, qu'à l'enseignement prodigué dans les écoles. Or, ces valeurs et habitudes sont fortement concurrencées par la culture populaire et des valeurs qui mettent l'emphase sur la communication rapide et familière.
La demande pressante d'un enseignement qui se veut mieux adapté aux réalités du marché du travail a aussi pour effet de dévaloriser matières et cours qui ont longtemps contribué à la qualité de la langue.
L'école, d'enseignement anglais ou français, peu importe, ne fait que respirer l'air du temps: la lecture des grandes oeuvres classiques, le mode d'apprentissage priviligié d'une époque qui a fait ses preuves, a pratiquement disparu au profit d'un enseignement visant à former des technocrates.
Le résultat est que plus de la moitié des étudiants candidats aux programmes universitaires échouent aux examens d'entrée les plus élémentaires.
Les étudiants qui se démarquent à ce niveau sont souvent ceux qui ont compensé leurs lacunes par un enseignement autodidacte.
GG, first of all the Quebec civil service is bloated and has to be reduced by at least a third in the first place. And I see no gains from having Anglos in the civil service that just sit on their ass like most civil servants do anyways.
And hey, why not just dismantle the entire English public school system right now? Who needs it. Then lets see how long there's an Anglo community here in Quebec. How long will English higher learning instutions survive if there are no Anglo Quebecers to go there? Why will they be needed? Let's just turn them French as well and save everyone the time and trouble.
Montreal is bilingual because of the presence of the English community. Without it, it would be as French as the rest of the province. If the rest of the country follow in Montreal's footsteps then Canada is really in serious trouble. Take off your blinders GG.
Sapman99...I believe I misunderstood the point you were making about Beau Dommage. I was considering it in relation to the exposure of French music outside of Quebec and upon re-reading it, I realize my mistake. I apologize.
But one thing that I find sadder than an Anglo having no knowledge of such great bands and music is that this morning, here at the office, I brought up the topic of these groups with a young 22 yr old co-worker. A French co-worker. And he has little to no knowledge of these bands or the music they played or interest in them. In fact he thought Robert Charlebois was nothing but a beer maker! His current music is the French rap that is so prevalent today. So when it comes to 'popular music'...our tastes are no longer considered popular.
Techman
And hey, why not just dismantle the entire English public school system right now? Who needs it. Then lets see how long there's an Anglo community here in Quebec. How long will English higher learning instutions survive if there are no Anglo Quebecers to go there? Why will they be needed? Let's just turn them French as well and save everyone the time and trouble.
Montreal is bilingual because of the presence of the English community. Without it, it would be as French as the rest of the province. If the rest of the country follow in Montreal's footsteps then Canada is really in serious trouble. Take off your blinders GG.
Sapman99...I believe I misunderstood the point you were making about Beau Dommage. I was considering it in relation to the exposure of French music outside of Quebec and upon re-reading it, I realize my mistake. I apologize.
But one thing that I find sadder than an Anglo having no knowledge of such great bands and music is that this morning, here at the office, I brought up the topic of these groups with a young 22 yr old co-worker. A French co-worker. And he has little to no knowledge of these bands or the music they played or interest in them. In fact he thought Robert Charlebois was nothing but a beer maker! His current music is the French rap that is so prevalent today. So when it comes to 'popular music'...our tastes are no longer considered popular.
Techman
Techman,
Learning English is not the unique privilege of Anglophones. Francophones demand to learn English because a growing number of them realize the importance of English if they wish to be competitive in the wider North American marketplace.
The result is already felt as more and more francophones are exiting the province to seek better opportunities either in ROC or the USA.
Demographic and economical trends are overwhelmingly powerful.
Quebec language policies barely provide enough resistance to delay the province from becoming completely anglicized.
Interestingly, such policies favors bilingualism.
Instead of fighting we should, as a society, use this unique privilege to our advantage.
Learning English is not the unique privilege of Anglophones. Francophones demand to learn English because a growing number of them realize the importance of English if they wish to be competitive in the wider North American marketplace.
The result is already felt as more and more francophones are exiting the province to seek better opportunities either in ROC or the USA.
Demographic and economical trends are overwhelmingly powerful.
Quebec language policies barely provide enough resistance to delay the province from becoming completely anglicized.
Interestingly, such policies favors bilingualism.
Instead of fighting we should, as a society, use this unique privilege to our advantage.
Techman said:
Techman,
You're the one that needs to take off his blinders.
First, Quebec's civil service is bloated but they still need to diversify the existing labor pool. Also, you have a distorted view of the civil service and the public sector. Yes, there is dead wood in public organizations but unlike what the general public perceives, it is a minority. Some of the brightest and most hard working employees are to be found in public service.
Second, McGill and Concordia will survive no matter what happens to the Anglophone community here. A large percentage of the student population are either French Canadian or students who come from other provinces and U.S. States. This trend will only increase in the future.
Third, and most importantly, Montreal is bilingual because of the ethnics, Anglos and increasingly number of French Canadians that are opting to learn English, realizing that it is required to move ahead in any career path.
Fourth, Quebec is a small province in North America. It's not the English language and culture that I am worried about but how we will be able to maintain the French language and culture in an English North America. Existing laws are there to protect the French language and culture but like Ziggy, I fear that laws will ultimately fail to achieve this worthy goal.
GG
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Ziggy Montana said:Celine an English Canadian artist? I thought it was Anglophones who were being assimilated by Francophones!
Sorry about that...Actually we should probably call her a French American artist at this point. I'll give you back Celine and replace her with Allanis and Avril.
DUH!!! You think? Really? So isn't it a waste to spend all this energy and money to simply delay the inevitable? Isn't it amazing how other cultures and peoples such as the Italians, Greeks, Chinese, Spanish, Arabs, etc...can manage to preserve their languages by simply teaching them to their children without any laws to discriminate against others to help them? But for French it isn't enough for the language and culture to survive, it has to be dominant, superior, in control, to be above all others.
Well if it can't survive on it's own merits all the laws in the world won't help and they will eventually fail.
Besides...in 100 years or so, everyone will probably be speaking Chinese.
Techman
Protect or Promote
GG,
Inadvertently you made the important point of this discussion. You carry on abour PROTECTING the French language and culture when the main concern should be PROMOTING the French language and culture. The difference is very important and it defines the success or failure of the initiative.
Look at examples.
Canadian Content regulations on radio and television were enacted to provide minimum levels of air time for Canadian artists when it became too easy to simple import TV shows from the USA and play Top40 American records on the radio. Such laws promoted Canadian artists of both linguistic backgrounds. The success of the initiative is evidenced in the body of work complied by artists listed elsewhere in this thread and countless others in various fields.
The Quebec International Pee Wee Hockey Tournament is another example. Starting from a very modest effort it grew to the point where it was imitated and served as a model for Youth Hockey Tournaments throughout North America and the world. Why? Simple it was not started to PROTECT Pee Wee hockey players in the province of Quebec but it took the tradition of a hockey tournament during the local winter carnival that every paroisse had and PROMOTED it to the rest of Canada and the world that this is a great idea that should be built upon.
Simply when you PROTECT you admit and encourage failure but when you PROMOTE you accept the challenges of success while denying failure.
General Gonad said:
GG,
Inadvertently you made the important point of this discussion. You carry on abour PROTECTING the French language and culture when the main concern should be PROMOTING the French language and culture. The difference is very important and it defines the success or failure of the initiative.
Look at examples.
Canadian Content regulations on radio and television were enacted to provide minimum levels of air time for Canadian artists when it became too easy to simple import TV shows from the USA and play Top40 American records on the radio. Such laws promoted Canadian artists of both linguistic backgrounds. The success of the initiative is evidenced in the body of work complied by artists listed elsewhere in this thread and countless others in various fields.
The Quebec International Pee Wee Hockey Tournament is another example. Starting from a very modest effort it grew to the point where it was imitated and served as a model for Youth Hockey Tournaments throughout North America and the world. Why? Simple it was not started to PROTECT Pee Wee hockey players in the province of Quebec but it took the tradition of a hockey tournament during the local winter carnival that every paroisse had and PROMOTED it to the rest of Canada and the world that this is a great idea that should be built upon.
Simply when you PROTECT you admit and encourage failure but when you PROMOTE you accept the challenges of success while denying failure.
eastender said:
Good point EE but I still think the French language needs to be protected in Quebec.
GG
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