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Are Quebec's anglophones at risk?

ParChance

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Jul 23, 2007
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Ziggy,

I read the same Wikipedian definition but the fact remains that their very first line in their definition states,

"Ethnic cleansing refers to various policies or practices aimed at the displacement of an ethnic group from a particular territory in order to create a supposedly ethnically "pure" society"

Ziggy would you pls be so kind as to translate your posts above, for me so I am able to understand them properly in order to intelligently reply or not to your point of view ?
 
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General Gonad

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Dec 31, 2005
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Ziggy Montana said:
Je répète, pour la xième fois, que je suis bien conscient que les minorités sont sous-représentées dans la fonction publique québécoise.

C'est l'explication, c'est-à-dire la thèse du racisme, que je réfute. ...

Ne pas faire assez de discrimination positive ne veut aucunement dire qu'on fasse de la discrimination négative. On ne dit pas, dans ces rapports ni ailleurs, que les embaucheurs rejettent systématiquement les candidatures des minorités. Ce qu'on dit, en fait, c'est que le gouvernement du Québec n'a pas su attirer ces dites candidatures.

Très différent.

Ziggy,

Franchement, tu pense que ces rapports vont dire que le gouvernement du Québec fait de la discrimination négative?:rolleyes: Tu sais que le gouvernement n'a pas besoin de le faire s'il ignore le problème. Aussi, la Commission canadienne des droits de la personne écrit ceci sur la discrimination:


"Discrimination

Si une offre d'emploi ou un avis public porte la mention « Les femmes ne peuvent pas postuler » ou « Les étrangers ne sont pas admissibles », le message est clair... et discriminatoire.

De la même façon, si quelqu'un est injurié à cause de sa couleur, de son âge ou d'une déficience physique ou mentale, nous savons tous qu'il s'agit d'un comportement discriminatoire et dégradant. Ce genre d'actes est facile à repérer, et on peut y mettre un terme assez facilement.

Mais la discrimination peut être beaucoup plus subtile et tenace. Une personne peut se voir refuser le service qu'elle demande ou l'emploi qu'elle croit mériter pour des raisons discriminatoires. Pour conclure qu'il y a discrimination, il faut démontrer que c'est par exemple à cause de sa race, de son sexe ou de son âge que le service ou l'emploi lui a été refusé, et non pour une raison valable.

Parfois, la seule façon de conclure qu'il y a discrimination, c'est d'en examiner les effets sur un groupe. Si les personnes en fauteuil roulant ne peuvent pas s'approcher du comptoir de service, il est évident qu'elles ne seront pas bien servies. Et si on n'embauche presque jamais de personnes de plus de 40 ans pour un emploi donné, on peut se demander si c'est pour une bonne raison ou s'il s'agit simplement de préjugés contre les travailleurs plus âgés.


On peut le constater facilement, la discrimination nuit aux personnes qui en sont victimes. Des gens se voient refuser un emploi ou une promotion tout simplement parce qu'ils appartiennent au mauvais groupe d'âge ou au mauvais sexe, qu'ils ont telle ou telle couleur de peau ou qu'ils viennent de tel ou tel pays. Que nous le voulions ou non, l'égalité des chances n'est pas toujours accessible à tout le monde, même si c'est une valeur que les Canadiens jugent essentielle à notre société."

Moi j'y crois que l'égalité des chances n'est pas toujours accessible aux minorités et que le gouvernement doit faire beaucoup plus pour attirer ces gens. By not doing more to attract minorities to the civil service, the Quebec government is accepting the status quo, which is abominable.

GG
 
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beautydigger

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ParChance said:
Ziggy,
Ziggy would you pls be so kind as to translate your posts above, for me so I am able to understand them properly in order to intelligently reply or not to your point of view ?
Not being able to read french, I prefer Ziggy to post in french.
 

z/m(Ret)

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beautydigger said:
Not being able to read french, I prefer Ziggy to post in french.
Sans problème, ma grande tantouze. Juste pour toi, cette dédicace en français.
 

z/m(Ret)

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General Gonad said:
Ziggy,

Franchement, tu pense que ces rapports vont dire que le gouvernement du Québec fais de la discrimination négative?:rolleyes: Tu sais que le gouvernement n'a pas besoin de le faire s'il ignore le problème. Aussi, la Commission canadienne des droits de la personne écrit ceci sur la discrimination:
GG,

J'essaie seulement de regarder la situation froidement. On parle ici de discrimination systématique, de racisme et de purification ethnique. De graves accusations qui seraient débattues à la cour suprême voire, pour au moins l'une d'entre elles, au tribunal mondial si celles-ci étaient fondées.

Du point de vue de la loi constitutionnelle autant que devant le tribunal mondial, de telles accusations ne tiendraient pas la route.

Mais si on s'en tient strictement au cadre de cette discussion, on pourrait au moins s'entendre que prêter les intentions malveillantes au gouvernement sur la seule base des faits présentés dans ce fil de discussion relève bien plus du domaine des opinions que des faits. Seuls les faits m'intéressent.
 

z/m(Ret)

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ParChance said:
Ziggy,

I read the same Wikipedian definition but the fact remains that their very first line in their definition states,

"Ethnic cleansing refers to various policies or practices aimed at the displacement of an ethnic group from a particular territory in order to create a supposedly ethnically "pure" society"

Ziggy would you pls be so kind as to translate your posts above, for me so I am able to understand them properly in order to intelligently reply or not to your point of view ?
First and foremost which displacement of anglophones from Quebec are you talking about? 2001 census shows that the number of English-speaking Quebeccers slightly increased since 1951. Therefore no evidence of anglophones being driven out of the province, regardless of the alleged reasons. This fact has been stated several times on this thread.

Moreover, had Bills 22 and 101 really driven anglophones out of the province, we would only be talking about cause and effect. To speak reasonably of "ethnic cleansing", stretching the definition, we'd further need to prove that the implemented bills were ratified with the intent to cleanse anglophones.

Good luck to anyone who wishes to undertake such a task.

In a nutshell, my posts in French repeat what I previously wrote in English.
 

General Gonad

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Dec 31, 2005
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Ziggy Montana said:
J'essaie seulement de regarder la situation froidement. On parle ici de discrimination systématique, de racisme et de purification ethnique. De graves accusations qui seraient débattues à la cour suprême voire, pour au moins l'une d'entre elles, au tribunal mondial si celles-ci étaient fondées.

Du point de vue de la loi constitutionnelle autant que devant le tribunal mondial, de telles accusations ne tiendraient pas la route.

Mais si on s'en tient strictement au cadre de cette discussion, on pourrait au moins s'entendre que prêter les intentions malveillantes au gouvernement sur la seule base des faits présentés dans ce fil de discussion relève bien plus du domaine des opinions que des faits. Seuls les faits m'intéressent.

Ziggy,

Moi je parle pas de la discrimination systématique. Je crois les faits vont pas supporter cette accusation. Par contre, comme tu as remarqué, les faits supportent l'accusation que que les minorités sont sous-représentées dans la fonction publique québécoise. Pour moi, cette sous-représentation des minorités est inacceptable et ca démontre que les minorités sont encore marginales dans notre societé.

Je suis d'accord avec Julien Bauer:

«Les minorités sont encore marginales. Dans une société qui, pour des raisons historiques, est "tricotée serrée, où une des premières questions que l'on pose est "où es-tu né?", les pouvoirs publics n'aident pas les minorités à participer à la vie de la société. Elles continuent à être sous-représentées pour ne pas dire quasiment absentes de la fonction publique provinciale. Bien pire, le vocabulaire officiel maintient la confusion entre immigrants et minorités, comme si les deux notions étaient synonymes. Cette confusion risque de mettre les minorités en situation de marginaux permanents.» (p. 117).

- Bauer, Julien. (1994).
Les minorités au Québec.
Montréal. Les Éditions du Boréal Express.



GG
 

ParChance

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Ziggy below are the census results of Quebec by linguistic group

1951 2001

Total Population 4,055,681 7,125,580 +75%


Eng 559,684 13.8% 557,040 7.82%

French 3,345,937 82% 5,761,765 80%

If the current trend continues, the % of English spoeaking persons in Quebec will decrease to a level that is close to zero in most likely 20 years or so.

Please keep in mind that a large chunk of those years from 1951 to 2001 some of the so called allophones (Greek & Italian immigrants) were permitted to send their children to English school, which they are no longer able.

Also note that the total net population increase in Quebec those 50 years was a % increase of 75%
 

ParChance

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I am a senior citizen, who was born in Europe and I would like to participate in this discussion but I'm sorry I am not able to understand what you are expressing should you continue to only write in French.
Is this not a discussion on the risks of Quebec's anglophones ? If it is would it not be more open and inclusive should some of us who were not born here to discuss in English as well as French, unless you are not able to ?
I may be able to add or impart some of my experience but only if you would like. Keeping it French only seems to me that a large and possibly valuable segment of those of which you are discussing may not be able to contribute.
 

sapman99

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ParChance said:
I am a senior citizen, who was born in Europe and I would like to participate in this discussion but I'm sorry I am not able to understand what you are expressing should you continue to only write in French.
Is this not a discussion on the risks of Quebec's anglophones ? If it is would it not be more open and inclusive should some of us who were not born here to discuss in English as well as French, unless you are not able to ?
I may be able to add or impart some of my experience but only if you would like. Keeping it French only seems to me that a large and possibly valuable segment of those of which you are discussing may not be able to contribute.
You know I agree with you. When we have a forum, a "mini-society" such as MERB, it is nice for everyone to be able to fully participate, by speaking the same language.
 

eastender

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Integration vs Segregation

This month marks the 50th anniversery of the integration of Central High in Little Rock,Arkansas, a defining moment in the desegregation of the south in the USA, a period that stretched into the 1970's and touched northern states as well. A period that was marked by significant violence, murder, assassination, Freedom Riders,marches and much rhetoric. Net result is that integration was achieved, at a great cost and the USA emerged stronger.

Canada and Quebec chose different paths. Paths that limited overt violence significantly BUT paths that in retrospect inhibited integration by recognizing artificial barriers between people - barriers such as language,religion,etc. Net result is a much weaker Canada and Quebec.

How do we go about changing the existing situation?
 

General Gonad

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Reality Check

traveller_76 said:
The SC is the best check the citizens have against abuse of power by governments. To say otherwise, I'd argue, is quite anti-Canadian :D The onus is however on the Canadian citizen who uses this institution to prove the alleged abuse of power by government. Saying so is only sufficient proof on Merb.

As a result of the Supreme Court ruling in Ford v. Quebec, Quebec amended its law on commercial signage to permit the inclusion of languages other than French, provided that the French language is "markedly predominant." This was the only nominal ruling where the government of Quebec conceded and showed some flexibility. (but then again, I do not know my history.:rolleyes: )

Now, if you think the Supreme Court will dare rule on employment laws in Quebec, then you are dreaming. Lack of proper representation is not a matter for the Supreme Court. It is up to the government of Quebec to take initiative and have an action plan with clear objectives and a clear timeline to meet those objectives.

traveller_76 said:
As for minorities not being represented in the civil service or in public office, well, there's no point in me responding to that, as my only comment 'well why don't you try applying?' would be considered 'convenient rhetoric'. I'd still like to know though... where are these masses of minorities who've knocked at Quebec's door only to be told sorry, you're not 'pure laine' enough? Perhaps you expect the province to come knocking at your door? Political representation is not only a question of purse or belonging to a represented elite - it is also a question of will, at least in democratic countries like this great country called Canada, which no, isn't perfect but sure is one of the best places to live in the world when it comes to human rights :)

Concerning the above, please read this 2006 report (emphasis is mine):

http://www.micc.gouv.qc.ca/publications/fr/dossiers/CommunautesNoires-RapportGroupeTravail-en.pdf

"Access to employment was one of the main themes raised during the hearings. It was examined in the public and parapublic service as well as in private enterprises. Numerous individuals and organizations noted that employment equality provisions in the civil service and the Act respecting equal access to employment in public bodies and amending the Charter of Human Rights and Freedoms (Bill 143) were not accompanied by adequate follow-up measures and that managers were not sufficiently accountable for attaining results in the hiring of persons from cultural communities. Similarly, despite efforts apparently made to implement equal access to employment programs (Programmes d’accès à l’égalité – PAE), some participants said the PAEs lacked transparency. Certain participants also emphasized a lack of openness to cultural communities on the part of both managers and employees. The inability of persons from Black communities to keep their job or advance to more senior positions was raised in other discussions. Finally, there was debate on the advantages and disadvantages of PAEs, sometimes referred to as “positive discrimination” or “proactive access to employment measures.” "

traveller_76 said:
True, minorities aren't very well represented in l'Assemblé Nationale. But tell me, is the proportion of minorities in Parliament reflective of their proportion in the Canadian population? How many Muslim, Jewish, Haïtian representatives? Lets jump to conclusions and call Ottawa racist. It saves us from asking more complicated questions like 'why is there underrepresentation in the absense of laws that restrict access to representation?' To me it is a question very similar to 'why don't more Canadian's vote?' The jury is still out on both questions.

No surprise that the NDP has the most visible minorities:

Reality Check

Once more, few women, fewer minorities By John Gray, CBC.ca Reality Check Team | January 03, 2006 | More Reality Check

The deadline to nominate candidates for the federal election has come and gone, and once more it is clear that the participation of women in politics is not a high priority for Canada’s four main political parties.

Women and minorities in parliament
When the Jan. 2 deadline had passed, 999 candidates had submitted their nomination papers to contest the Jan. 23 election for the Liberals, Conservatives, New Democrats and Bloc Quebecois. Just a quarter of the candidates were women.

Political leaders always proclaim themselves eager for more representation of women in Parliament, but it seems that no election is quite the right time for radical measures.

A little more than two years ago, as he was headed for his coronation as leader of the Liberal party, Paul Martin made a couple of surprising statements.

Looking ahead to the election that eventually took place in June 2004, he said: "We cannot go into this election campaign unless we have the largest number of women candidates in Liberal riding history."

Enthused, he explained, "We have to go out across this country and, in riding after riding, recruit young women who want to dedicate themselves to the public service."

The harsh reality is that Martin did not reach his target of the largest number of women candidates in Liberal party history. Women constituted 24 per cent of all Liberal candidates in 2004. The Liberals, under his old rival Jean Chrétien, attracted 28 per cent women candidates in the 1997 election.

Nor did Martin achieve great success in terms of getting women actually elected to the House of Commons. Of the 135 Liberals elected in the 2004 election, only 34 were women – 25 per cent of the caucus.

As for the goal of half the membership of Parliament being women, that was a distant target. Of the 308 MPs from all parties, only 65 were women, a long way from Martin's ideal of 52 per cent, and virtually the same proportion as in 2000. With another election on the horizon, the numbers look no better for women. Indeed, the representation of women seems to have been at best an afterthought.

* The highest proportion of women is found in the New Democratic Party, where women constitute 36 per cent of the nominated candidates.

* Thirty one per cent of Bloc Québécois candidates are women.

* Despite Martin's past enthusiasm, only 26 per cent of the Liberal candidates are women.

* Among Conservatives, just 11 per cent of the candidates are women.

The group most active in lobbying for greater representation of women in Parliament is Equal Voice, whose chair, former journalist Rosemary Speirs, concedes wearily that "so far we're battering against a wall."

Another continuing problem, Speirs acknowledges, is that political parties frequently nominate women in those ridings where they have little chance of victory.

Speirs points grimly to the chart published by the Interparliamentary Union in its survey of democratic institutions around the world.

In terms of representation of women, the 65 women elected to the House of Commons in the last election mean that Canada is 23rd in the world – slightly behind Ethiopia, slightly ahead of Latvia.

For advocates like Speirs, the consolation is that women have achieved greater success in making inroads in the political parties than visible minorities have managed.

Of the NDP's 308 candidates, 21 are visible minorities. Of the Bloc Québécois' 75 candidates, nine are visible minorities.

The Liberals and the Conservatives said they do not keep a record of minority candidates.

GG
 

eastender

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Pauline Marois

General Gonad said:
Another continuing problem, Speirs acknowledges, is that political parties frequently nominate women in those ridings where they have little chance of victory.

Speirs points grimly to the chart published by the Interparliamentary Union in its survey of democratic institutions around the world.

In terms of representation of women, the 65 women elected to the House of Commons in the last election mean that Canada is 23rd in the world – slightly behind Ethiopia, slightly ahead of Latvia.

For advocates like Speirs, the consolation is that women have achieved greater success in making inroads in the political parties than visible minorities have managed.

Of the NDP's 308 candidates, 21 are visible minorities. Of the Bloc Québécois' 75 candidates, nine are visible minorities.

The Liberals and the Conservatives said they do not keep a record of minority candidates.

GG

When the PQ elected Andre Boisclair as their leader they effectively manipulated Pauline Marois out of contention by having a variety of fringe and long ago male candidates (Gilbert Paquette) erode her power base.

BTW prorating to 300 the BQ would have 36 visible minority candidates.
 

z/m(Ret)

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Absolute values

ParChance said:
Ziggy below are the census results of Quebec by linguistic group

1951 2001

Total Population 4,055,681 7,125,580 +75%


Eng 559,684 13.8% 557,040 7.82%

French 3,345,937 82% 5,761,765 80%

If the current trend continues, the % of English spoeaking persons in Quebec will decrease to a level that is close to zero in most likely 20 years or so.

Please keep in mind that a large chunk of those years from 1951 to 2001 some of the so called allophones (Greek & Italian immigrants) were permitted to send their children to English school, which they are no longer able.

Also note that the total net population increase in Quebec those 50 years was a % increase of 75%
Parchance,

Actually, if the current trend continues, the English-speaking population will remain approximately the same (in absolute values, not in percentage) while the French-speaking population will have increased. Still no evidence there of Anglophones being driven out of the province, let alone of "ethnic cleansing".

Unilingual schooling is already counterbalanced by the internet, cable and satellite TV, and English geographical proximity. "Resistance knots" thanks to which a growing number of kids are learning both English and French whereas they would have only learned English anywhere else in North America.

Quebec's future is bilingual.
 

eastender

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Community Groups

Ziggy Montana said:
Parchance,

Actually, if the current trend continues, the English-speaking population will remain approximately the same (in absolute values, not in percentage) while the French-speaking population will have increased. Still no evidence there of Anglophones being driven out of the province, let alone of "ethnic cleansing".

Unilingual schooling is already counterbalanced by the internet, cable and satellite TV, and English geographical proximity. "Resistance knots" thanks to which a growing number of kids are learning both English and French whereas they would have only learned English anywhere else in North America.

Quebec's future is bilingual.


Unilingual schooling has been balanced by youth sports, community groups, community activities, music and the like for at least two generations.
 

beautydigger

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Ziggy Montana said:
Anglophones being driven out of the province, let alone of "ethnic cleansing".
Just as whites are the only ones capable of racism, ethnic cleansing of whites even by other whites, will never be acknowledged in this day and age.
 

ParChance

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Jul 23, 2007
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Ziggy,

Those numbers are the MOST current ones, which in this case began in 1951, when many families were still having 3 or more children thus replacing the 2 parents, whereas currently not many Canadian born citizens are still having more babies than (currently not even 2 children) per couple, so by extension, if you include job migration out of Quebec, choice of not having children, infertility and unfortunate early death to one person in the family unit the population, the numbers will not remain at current levels unless immigration is allowed to occur and migrate to English community.

Now seeing as the French community in Quebec has by law all the immigrants' children going to the French public school system, the French population numbers in Quebec, (as in the rest of the western world) as a direct result of immigration, their very population numbers will continue to grow. The same cannot be said about Quebec's English population.

I don't want to even attempt to calculate the % decrease that will continue to occur on the English side of the ledger, as it will surely be abissmal going forward (and that's not progress).
When the % decrease gets much lower than it currently is, the majority will start to exclaim that they no longer wish to fund an English public school system and rightfully so at some point.
 

z/m(Ret)

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ParChance said:
Those numbers are the MOST current ones, which in this case began in 1951, when many families were still having 3 or more children thus replacing the 2 parents, whereas currently not many Canadian born citizens are still having more babies than (currently not even 2 children) per couple, so by extension, if you include job migration out of Quebec, choice of not having children, infertility and unfortunate early death to one person in the family unit the population, the numbers will not remain at current levels unless immigration is allowed to occur and migrate to English community.[...]
Demographic birth cohorts, birth rate decrease, migration, and other variables... Maybe the unilingual English-speaking community is just bond to disappear or, better yet, to transform itself the way a growing number of French-Canadians are bilingual and now capable to access the wider North American marketplace.

If you ask me, the unilingual French-speaking majority is just as well bond to transform itself.

Whatever the case may be, I still fail to recognize how any of this translates into ethnic cleansing.

ParChance said:
Now seeing as the French community in Quebec has by law all the immigrants' children going to the French public school system, the French population numbers in Quebec, (as in the rest of the western world) as a direct result of immigration, their very population numbers will continue to grow. The same cannot be said about Quebec's English population.

I don't want to even attempt to calculate the % decrease that will continue to occur on the English side of the ledger, as it will surely be abissmal going forward (and that's not progress).
When the % decrease gets much lower than it currently is, the majority will start to exclaim that they no longer wish to fund an English public school system and rightfully so at some point.
Unilingual French schooling serves only to offset the predominance of English in
eastender said:
[...]youth sports, community groups, community activities, music and the like
and furthermore in the workplace, on the internet, cable tv, in the pop culture, etc.

Change your perspective, i.e. look at the Quebec linguistic situation within the context of North America, and you might eventually recognize how privileged we are here to have a double-culture.
 
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ParChance

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Jul 23, 2007
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Ziggy,

I understand that you don't see how this slow demise of the English society here in Quebec translates into whatever you wish to call it (let's not play on semantics) but NOT promoting and encouraging it's very survival is the intent.

Yes everyone should be as bilingual as possible here in Montreal and it's immediate surroundings as French is the language of the majority but English is and for the foreseeable future the language of commerce.

Certain cultures within ANY in North America will never assimilate into the mainframe culture but does that mean that they should be relegated out existence or should they be encouraged and supported to grow ?

Lessening the multi cultural influence that these other ethnic cultures and langauges bring to the table will relegate a society to the vivacity of Flin Flon, Manitoba or Des Moines, Iowa
 
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hormone

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Feb 28, 2007
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carefull with numbers

ParChance said:
Ziggy below are the census results of Quebec by linguistic group

1951 2001

Total Population 4,055,681 7,125,580 +75%


Eng 559,684 13.8% 557,040 7.82%

French 3,345,937 82% 5,761,765 80%

If the current trend continues, the % of English spoeaking persons in Quebec will decrease to a level that is close to zero in most likely 20 years or so.

Look at it another way: the % of French has also diminished, although less, but still. In Montreal, stats show that the % of people who use english as a daily language is close to 50%.
Many things could explain the decrease in "english" numbers, one of which is how the definition of "linguistic group" is done. Allophones are in greater numbers than "english" according to what you quote. But what language do they use in day to day life? Where do they live? From experience (in a very public sector) I can say that a great majority of "allophone" more recent immigrants use english, and the progression has been clear to me over the last 15 years. In couterpart, many "italian" or "greek" origined allophones will now use french as well as english, thanks to schooling.

So lets be clear when we mention the decline of "english speaking" persons... i.e. from a household speaking primarily english? Using english on a daily basis (home, work, friends, etc)? From descendants of British immigrants?
 
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