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Are Quebec's anglophones at risk?

eastender

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Jun 6, 2005
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Not My Point

ParChance said:
eastender,

Not all private schools receive subsidies from Quebec. Those private schools who abstain from the language regulations re: admissions have forfeited their subsidies to do so.

Have you gone to a private English school or sent a child to one ? Are you speaking from personal experience or are you just reading one of those reports that don't tell the whole story.

ParChance

My point was one should not assume that private schools never get government funding.

Not comfortable with the reasoning in your last paragraph. Action based on personal experience would preclude doctors who never had a heart attack from commenting on heart attacks. Doubt that you want to follow that line of reasoning.
 
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eastender

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Getting Elected

SeeCupRider said:
Little or no unity:
I would agree that the goal of the PQ originally was probably to make all the anglophones move or assimilate but, let's face it, there hasn't been much suffering in the English community and even the PQ's most extreme hardliners are going to have to recognise that English-speaking people are useful in communicating with the rest of North-America and, increasingly, the world all the way from Santiago to Vladivostok. Anyway, using the term "ethnic cleansing" to apply to the treatment of Quebec Anglophones is, frankly, offensive to those who have really had to deal with it.

Goal of the PQ was to get elected and preserve jobs. Similarly the BQ when they figured out that there were federal jobs available. Hasn't changed. Never will.
 

ParChance

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Jul 23, 2007
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SeeCupRider,

The School boards in all but the strongest bastions of English language
education are probably going to keep suffering but,
So if this is so, how would one explain Wagar HS in the strong English bastion of Cote St Luc ? By the way, Westmount HS can't be far along that path either.

and this
Is there really AN English community, last time I looked, the so-called "Anglophone" community was really an English/Italian/Greek/Jewish/German/Polish/Russian/Chinese/Japanese/etc
community with, not surprisingly, no unity.
I find that a tad offensive. Those communities who have been & their children who have been educated here in Quebec in English are just as much a part of the English community, as say someone who descended from England. I didn't realize that there was a hierarchy of what constitutes an English community. Furthermore, I dare you or anyone to go into any of those communities and suggest to Italians, Jews, Greeks, etc that they aren't unified. That statement has as much validity as some ignorant ass saying that Toronto is made up of those damn English, whereas the last time I walked along Young Street, I saw most who didn't seem to have a British accent in the least.
 

Techman

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Dec 23, 2004
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I would agree that the goal of the PQ originally was probably to make all the anglophones move or assimilate but, let's face it, there hasn't been much suffering in the English community and even the PQ's most extreme hardliners are going to have to recognise that English-speaking people are useful in communicating with the rest of North-America and, increasingly, the world all the way from Santiago to Vladivostok. Anyway, using the term "ethnic cleansing" to apply to the treatment of Quebec Anglophones is, frankly, offensive to those who have really had to deal with it.

SCR, Who says there has been no suffering in the english community? Do you think it's easy living in a province where the apostrophe S on a sign is illegal? Where your language has been reduced to something that you can be fined for displaying by the apostrophe SS, the OLF? And if the hardliners finally realize that english is a necessity what will have been the cost? How much business do we have to lose? How much progress? How many friends and family have to leave? How much hate has to pass before they realize that? Is everyone blind to what all this bullshit has cost this city and this province and the country as a whole? What world do you live in anyways?

And if you don't like my use of the term ethnic cleansing, well too bad because that is exactly what it going on here. It may be being done with laws instead of violence but the result is the same. The elimination of an ethnic group from Quebec, pure and simple. What else would you call it? A strong suggestion to the english to leave? I've said it before and I'll say it again...french Quebecers are like the Borg in Star Trek. Resistance is futile...you will be assimilated. Or forced to leave.:cool:

Techman
 

Techman

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Dec 23, 2004
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eastender said:
Goal of the PQ was to get elected and preserve jobs. Similarly the BQ when they figured out that there were federal jobs available. Hasn't changed. Never will.

The goal of the PQ as well as the BQ is the dismantling of Canada to form a country called Quebec by whatever means possible. It was also a great way to guarantee themselves a cushy pension for the rest of their lives. If they actually gave a damn about preserving and creating jobs, english would not only be permitted but promoted. The only thing they are interested in preserving is their captive workforce...their lobsters in the pot. Well, I think they must be cooked by now. It's time for a new recipe.


Techman

Oh yeah...considering how many jobs were lost due to separatism in general and referenda in particular, it seems that the PQ haven't done a very good job preserving and creating jobs.


PS: Hey EE...congrats on hitting 1000 posts!
 
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ParChance

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Jul 23, 2007
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SeeCupRider,

When was there a monolithic English community here in Quebec, pre WW1 ?
Once European immigrants started to come here en masse around the turn of the 20th century, they wanted to be a part of a society that was free, not devasted by war & had opportunity for them & their children. And since they knew that the US was an English speaking country, they figured that they were best off (in their opinions) to learn English as America was then fast becoming the world's economic super power after England's aging and economic decline.

Are you also speaking for the members of those communities & their feelings about the English communities ?
 

ParChance

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Jul 23, 2007
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SeeCupRider,

Yeah there once was a tea sipping community of rich English (British stock) people in Westmount but once those damn Jews started to buy their way in lead by the Bronfmans and Steinbergs, they couldn't run fast enough to leave. Seriously though, (in part) it hasn't been that way in Westmount for almost 40 years now. Is it also possible that the same behind the times mentality or misinformation (by the French media) is held by those same people who still think that Toronto is inhabited by British stock ?

400,000 people left this province, taking with them their Quebec income tax revenue to somewhere else and as a result of or in part, of perception of abuse by the majority & this stupidity that an apostrophe is going to save a language. It's not the apostrophe that matters but the larger picture (by extension) of the small mindedness of an ignorant beaurcrat who obviously is so consumed by hate, that he or she must even suggest such an inane paragraph in the text of a law.

Parliamentary Ministers, Prime Ministers, Vice Presidents & Presidents don't write laws, they probably don't even read them (some can't read GW?) when they are written let alone the drafts beforehand. They are just glorified car salesmen in most cases & some aren't even good looking ones.

P.S. I read somewhere not long ago a post on Merb by some ignorant person who made a statement about "old fat Jewish women in Westmount" & I laughed because some 40 years ago there weren't many Jews living in Westmount & those who currently live there for the most part are young 30 to 40 something families & as I sat at the Second Cup on Greene Ave this afternoon, I found myself gawking at the lovely fit trim young mothers who were Jewish and kept saying to myself, you dirty old man
 
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CocaCola

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Dec 24, 2005
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So is the net population decreasing would you say in Quebec? I wouldnt think so. If you wanted to move to quebec is it pretty much required that you be fluent in french? In your everyday office environment is french the only language normally spoken?
 

Ben Dover

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Jun 25, 2006
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CocaCola said:
If you wanted to move to quebec is it pretty much required that you be fluent in french?

Of course not my friend! French is only required if you want to get a job. If you are independantly wealthy and don't need to work for a living, then you won't have to worry about it. Of course, as other posters pointed out, you could just come here to study and then when you graduate you could take you skills to a place where they will let you use them!

by the way, regarding this post:
metoo4 said:
Unimaginable how some peoples have nothing to do better than writing fiction stories based on nothing concrete and then, since it's garbage they could never publish as a novel, they try to convince peoples it's the truth! They live in their own imaginary world and they would like others to join them because they feel alone in their mediocrity.

I read this post several times and I'm really wondering who exactly is living in an imaginary dream world... Are you serious, or is this a joke? When I snap my fingers you will wake up feeling rested and refreshed...

BD
 

Ducon

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Oct 9, 2006
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I'm a native french speaker.
and one of the things I like most about this town, is the impressive mix of cultures and origins, which is made possible by the use of a language that is easy to learn: english.

The french language, or more precisely the quebecois language,
is not at risk at all, there are more than enough francophones in the whole province.
Kicking out anglophones would make no difference about the survival of the language. It would just be a huge loss for Montreal.
The most talented person I worked with in Montreal is an english speaker who doesn't know much french.
And because of the "defenders of the french language", he might leave.
It's not about defending a language, it's not about culture, it's about an inferiority complex and a fake need of "revenge" for what happened to a previous generation.
What a waste.

And no, french is not "a nice language once you know it".
It's a pain in the butt to learn, it still is difficult 10 years after you started to learn.
If we all had the same language then we wouldn't be wasting so much time and fighting over this. It's not worth it. Languages don't make people happy, they just divide them and makes them waste time.

Is everybody supposed to fight to defend their native language?
It doesn't make sense that people fight over things that they didn't even choose.
 

General Gonad

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Dec 31, 2005
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Ducon said:
It's not about defending a language, it's not about culture, it's about an inferiority complex and a fake need of "revenge" for what happened to a previous generation. What a waste.

Ducon,

I do not see French Quebecers as having an "inferiority complex". They might be sensitive in regards to their culture and language - and rightfully so given that they are a minority in Canada and North America - but they have no inferiority complex.

History has proven that things come in waves. If discrimination against anglos and ethnics takes an ugly turn, the province and Quebec's culture will lose big time. I love this city, the French culture and les Quebecois but I refuse to allow my standard of living to degenerate because French institutions have become hopelessly parochial, refusing to diversify their workforce in any meaningful way. Quebec's French elite should wake up and smell the coffee.

GG
 

Techman

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Dec 23, 2004
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mazingerz...I don't see anyone here attacking the French language or saying that it is inferior to any other. But if French Quebecers are so confident in their language, why then do they need laws to eradicate the english language to protect it? Why can't it stand proud and survive on it's own merits? Language alone does not define or create a culture. There are many different cultures in the english community, none of them any better or worse that the other. How many young people in the Jewish community actually speak Hebrew? Many live in english but their culture still exists, they still practice their beliefs.

Ils sont un modèle pour les communautés francophones dans le monde.

Right, that's why in Paris they would rather speak to Quebecers in english instead of french.

...les anglophones encore aujourd'hui n'arrivent pas à accepter que les francophones aient le droit de parler français dans leur province et aient le droit de se faire respecter en ayant l'affichage dans leur langue où ils sont fortement majoritaire.

Who has said that no one should be speaking french? Who? No one that I am aware of. But why should everyone be forced by law to do so? Why should people not have the choice to speak whatever language they wish? To educate their children in whatever language they wish? Your reply would be because they would choose english? Why would they do so if French was so proud and significant here in Quebec? Are you so insecure in your own language and culture that you believe that even the French would abandon their own culture and language? If that is true, then is it really worth protecting?


And I really wish that french Quebecers would stop using French Canadians outside of Quebec as examples...it's not like the government of Quebec or the population gives a damn about them in any way. But they always seem to be used as 'examples' of how badly french is treated elsewhere in Canada. That's just a crock of crap. It's so nice that Quebec treats it's 'minorities' so well! How nice of them! Well guess what? Minorities pay just as much taxes as we do, no matter the language they speak and they have the same rights. Or at least they would if they lived anywhere but Quebec.

If a language can't stand and survive on it's own merits and the population who speak it do not have enough children to guarantee it's survival, all the laws in the world will not save it. It's like a drowning man trying to save himself by climbing on the shoulders of his friend. Instead of working together to try and survive, they both end up drowning.

Your post is a prime example of the inferiority complex that is shared by French Quebecers. If a language and culture is not strong enough to promote itself and survive, then no laws will do it either.

Techman

PS: A quick note for SCR...I'm not an anglo.
 

Techman

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Dec 23, 2004
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If discrimination against anglos and ethnics takes an ugly turn...

IF??? Where have you been living all of your life, GG? It took an ugly turn many years ago and hasn't looked back since! Wake up already. We have one group proclaiming that the anglo population should not be permitted to rise above 8.3%! Permitted!!! Like anglos were nothing but breeding animals. French Quebecers talk about how well they treat 'their minorities'! How much uglier do you want things to get?

What the hell does it take to get people to open their eyes?

Techman
 

sapman99

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Nov 13, 2005
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peternorth said:
let's face it, without being a non-fluent French speaker,an anglophone does probably have 5% of chance to get a job in Quebec, i know from myself. So an anglophone has no better option than leaving Quebec and move to english provinces. That is one of the reasons why english population is fading... Another fact is to learn and master french(to be able to work at a job) and at the same time earn decent money to pay for your fees and life expenses is pretty hard..

btw, couple of months ago, i saw a statistic about education system in each of the provinces and the rate of people who leaves the province after the graduation..

Quebec universities(mcgill, concordia and so on...) receives so many international students and students from other provinces, but unfortunately the rate of students who are leaving Quebec is the highest..in reality all of these people who got their nice degrees cheaper than many provinces and countries actually does not stay after their education. so Quebec gives them the education but the benefit goes to other provinces. reason: low pay, language barrier, and so on...
If someone realizes that computer skills are valuable in getting a job, funny how they don't balk, just suck up and learn it. When it comes to anglos learning french because somehow in a majoritarily francophone province it might make sense for them to learn it, the barricades go up.

In Toronto, ones stands a 0% percent chance of getting a job if they don't speak English. So much for off-the-cuff statistics.

Maybe McGill could do it's students a favour and teach them French while they are on the schoolbenches, to give them a better chance of finding a job here after.

Some friends from Toronto recently visited me, and they loved it here. They asked if it was possible to live here in English only. Blood rushed to my head. When I calmed down, I asked them if they really thought Montréal would be the exciting and vibrant place we see now if we were to all of a sudden pour a sea of unilingual English people into it.

I am sorry, but this is the general attitude of English populations worldwide: they like the exotic locales fine, but as conquerors. Not realizing that their attitude is bulldozing the "exotic" they adored upon arrival. One only has to look at the Crescent Street disctrict, and then visit Avenue Mont-Royal, to get the gist of what I'm saying...

I would not be as happy about my life experiences if I hadn't learned English, it enabled me to see and experiment so much more. I was able to visit and live in anglophone areas of our beautiful country.

Nothing wrong with English in Quebec. But this obstinacy to not learn the language of the majority, and then claim hardship, is manic. Try this in another Canadian province, and then get back to me...
 

franky

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franky sayz

everyone will now hate franky but english is here in the world to stay. For better or worse, it is a dominant language of the western world. It may not stay that way, but it appears to be heading that way. When I fly my plane, ATC must communicate to me in English, even in Quebec. In europe the same is true. When I attend a international medical meeting, all most all papers are given in english, I assume the same is true in other sciences. I love quebec as a visitor, I love the sound of the french language but..... i fear it's time is limited.
franky
 

General Gonad

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Techman said:
IF??? Where have you been living all of your life, GG? It took an ugly turn many years ago and hasn't looked back since! Wake up already. We have one group proclaiming that the anglo population should not be permitted to rise above 8.3%! Permitted!!! Like anglos were nothing but breeding animals. French Quebecers talk about how well they treat 'their minorities'! How much uglier do you want things to get? What the hell does it take to get people to open their eyes?

Techman,

You take this issue way too emotionally. You use silly terms like 'ethnic cleansing', inferiority complex, and you are convinced that things have already taken an ugly turn.

I am not denying that there is discrimination in this province. If your name isn't "Jean-Guy Pépin", you're not going to find work at a French institution very easily. But there still is a vibrant anglo and ethnic community here in Montreal and I see it strengthening in the future, especially the ethnics. If it was as bad as you claim, why aren't we seeing a massive exodus of people leaving every year? If you have official statistics to corroborate your claims, then please enlighten us all.

BTW, I have not seen any official document claiming that anglos or ethnics are not "permitted" to be more than a certain percentage of the population. What I worry about in Quebec is this pervasive parochialism that is slowly but surely creeping into French dominated institutions. That is a problem that only the politicians and business leaders can properly address with policies to diversify their workforce appropriately.

GG

P.S. sapman is right, anglos and ethnics should learn to speak and write French if they want to work and live in this province. I would add that French Quebecers better learn to speak and write English if they want to get the top jobs of the future.
 
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eastender

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SeeCupRider said:
Techman,

While I agree that the PQ and Quebec Nationalism in general pretty much killed the Montreal Economy in the sixties and seventies, I don't think all those banks and insurance companies moved because they were afraid of having to take down their apostrophe's or having trouble attracting foreign talent reluctant to learn French.

I think they left because they were afraid of economic nationalism (potentially even nationalisation, there were a lot of very left-wing people in the PQ) and they were worried about separation. Already this is controversial with some people who believe the migration to Toronto was a function of economic fundamentals; I believe these people ignore the importance of path dependency and should note that NYC is still the US's biggest financial centre, it didn't move to Chicago or LA. The PQ created the consensus required for a group of independant agents to collectively decide to move together...something that didn't happen to NYC. That said, if they had known that they only had a life without apostrophes to fear, they might not have moved.

If BMO, RBC, Sun Life, etc were still genuinely headed in Montreal though, what would Montreal have been like? Toronto has culture and night life now too, but what distinguishes Montreal is lower housing prices, a better work/life balance and the style of the city. If Montreal have boomed through the fifties, sixties and seventies, would the developers have pretty much raised Old Montreal to the ground? Would condos and houses be affordable or would we all be buying starter houses in St-Therese? No one knows the answers to these questions but it's worth thinking about.

That said, Quebecers are now maitres-chez-eux, which was NOT the case in the fifties. Montreal is a wonderful city, everyone loves it here for the architecture, the food, the lifestyle, the bars, the multiculturalism, etc. The thing is though, we have to have a decent economy with good jobs or we aren't going to go anywhere, this means, in my opinion, that it's high time the independance movement fade away so that we can focus on making this province competitive, focus on infrastructure. The tired old debate has sapped the province of too much energy and scared potential investors and migrants. No one is going to convince me the sign laws have the slightest impact on our economy while the education policies are certainly not our biggest problem. If they really do make it difficult to attract international talent then they will eventually change but are you sure that international talent won't want to come to Montreal because it's cool? One thing is for sure, they won't come here or stay here if there are no jobs. Right now that's our problem, not the apostrophes.

Anyway, this is an ESCORT forum and so I think I am done with this topic. I am just mouthing off and have zero expertise in this area. I really find that some English Quebecers whine too much, focus too much on the sign laws as though these were really the problem. Some English speakers in Ontario and the States may actually take you seriously when you complain about the daily hardships you suffer at the hands of the OLF.

SCR,

You have more knowledge then you give yourself credit for. Case in point your NYC reference.

NYC in the mid / late 1970's was virtually bankrupt, facing mass commercial and industrial exodus. With the significantly greater US population and economy they situation turned around to where it is today.

The major difference is that in the USA a Win/Win mentality exists whereas in Canada and Quebec this attitude is absent.
 

ParChance

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Jul 23, 2007
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GG,

But there still is a vibrant anglo and ethnic community here in Montreal and I see it strengthening in the future, especially the ethnics. If it was as bad as you claim, why aren't we seeing a massive exodus of people leaving every year? If you have official statistics to corroborate your claims, then please enlighten us all.
I can't believe that anyone would say that about the ethnic community. In almost each of the ethnic communities in Quebec the young are & have been migrating to other locales (rest of Canada) as their professions have drawn them there and it's for one reason and one reason alone more money and opportunity.

The Jewish community in Quebec City once existed where it exists no longer & as far as the one in Montreal, it once laid claim (40 years ago) to have a population of 120,000 and now 80,000. I'm sure that someone can and will find almost equal population stats for the Greek & Italian communities here in Quebec. I'm sorry but that not vibrancy.

BTW GG, Business leaders only care about 1 thing & it's not and never should be about diversification of a workforce or anything else for that matter, it is and should only be about generating profits for their shareholders. The rest is for glorified car salesmen better known as politicians who talk in circles, say nothing of any consequence other than to get elected in 4 to 5 years time.
 

ParChance

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Jul 23, 2007
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SeeCupRider,

You continually make reference to apostrophes and I'm sorry to say that it seems that you seem to miss the bigger picture of (by extension) of the small mindedness of an ignorant beaurcrat who obviously is so consumed by hate, that he or she must even suggest such an inane paragraph in the text of a law.

This province will advance economically when they place a bit more importance on their own personal individual business affairs rather than some collective legislation brought down by any government, federal or provincial. When people of industry are held in higher regard for the youth to emulate than some locally born singer or a 19 year old athlete pushing around a piece of vulcanized rubber.

Look at our neighbours to the south, they find that balance of looking at the stars (sometimes too obsessed) but they also hold in much higher regard than we do, the likes of Gates, Buffet, Murdoch, etc. and that's what drives an economy, entrepreneurial initiative & fortitude.
 

General Gonad

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ParChance said:
I can't believe that anyone would say that about the ethnic community. In almost each of the ethnic communities in Quebec the young are & have been migrating to other locales (rest of Canada) as their professions have drawn them there and it's for one reason and one reason alone more money and opportunity.

The Jewish community in Quebec City once existed where it exists no longer & as far as the one in Montreal, it once laid claim (40 years ago) to have a population of 120,000 and now 80,000. I'm sure that someone can and will find almost equal population stats for the Greek & Italian communities here in Quebec. I'm sorry but that not vibrancy.

ParChance,

I never denied that there are young people leaving this province for the reasons you mentioned, but many of them are unilingual anglophones or allophones. The ones that are able to find jobs are bilingual and skilled workers.

As for the Jewish community, I did not find much on the history of Jews in Quebec city but I did find this interesting link on the history of Jews in Montreal:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/Quebec.html

If you notice, the author states the following:

"The rise of Quebec's separatist movement and French language regulations in the 1970s prompted the predominantly English-speaking Jews to relocate to other English-speaking regions of Canada. When the Parti Quebecois won the provincial election in 1976, approximately 20,000 to 30,000 Jews, particularly young adults, left Quebec. The Jewish population feared an independent Quebec would economically and geographically uproot a large number of the 100,000 Jews in Montreal and would divide and weaken the national Jewish community. Due to this mass migration, the 1980s saw Toronto assuming Montreal's position as having the largest Jewish community. After the Liberal Party regained power in 1985, and a nationwide economic recession lessened the appeal of the rest of Canada, the Jewish population of Quebec leveled out slightly, but Montreal never regained its former status as the center of Canadian Jewish activity.

Today, Montreal's Jewish population is approximately 90,000. It is the most Orthodox of North American Jewish communities, explained by Quebec's French Catholic heritage and its emphasis on religion in society. Until 1998, Quebec lacked a nondenominational public school system. Catholic schools only admitted Catholics, so Jewish students were forced to attend Protestant schools. Today, around 55 percent of Jewish children attend the twenty-two Jewish day schools in the province. This is by far the highest percentage in North America. In addition, a network of Jewish public libraries was established to serve the Jewish communities, as Quebec did not have its own public library system until recently. The Montreal community boasts a B'nai Brith Youth Organization, the Canadian Zionist Federation, the Canadian Jewish Congress, the Foundation for Yiddish Culture, singles groups, and a genealogical society. However, the prosperity of the community will depend on political developments over the next few years."

So, there was an exodus of predominantly English-speaking Jews to Toronto but the community is still alive and well here in Montreal. Also, many Moroccan Jews speak French effortlessly, which allows them to stay in the city and find work.

The same pattern materialized in other communities. I am convinced that Bill 101 is empowering future generations of young anglos and ethnics to compete and find jobs against "French Quebecois de souche." I see ethnics with impeccable language skills, often fluently trilingual not just bilingual, who are getting into law, medecine, engineering and who are doing very well. The ones that are bitching never bothered to read a French newspaper.:rolleyes:


ParChance said:
BTW GG, Business leaders only care about 1 thing & it's not and never should be about diversification of a workforce or anything else for that matter, it is and should only be about generating profits for their shareholders. The rest is for glorified car salesmen better known as politicians who talk in circles, say nothing of any consequence other than to get elected in 4 to 5 years time.

I disagree. The strength of any organization is the people they hire. If you predominantly hire French Quebecers, you're losing the inherent advantages that come from a diversified work force. Your organization will become stale and parochial. This is already happening in many of Quebec's coveted organizations.

Unless the French power elite wake up and take the measures required to diversify their work force, this institutionalized parochialism will severely weaken Quebec's economy. The power to change things is in their hands but I am afraid they will fumble it up.:rolleyes:

GG
 
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