Are Quebec's anglophones at risk?

[eastender]

Venture Capital

SeeCupRider,

You continually make reference to apostrophes and I'm sorry to say that it seems that you seem to miss the bigger picture of (by extension) of the small mindedness of an ignorant beaurcrat who obviously is so consumed by hate, that he or she must even suggest such an inane paragraph in the text of a law.

This province will advance economically when they place a bit more importance on their own personal individual business affairs rather than some collective legislation brought down by any government, federal or provincial. When people of industry are held in higher regard for the youth to emulate than some locally born singer or a 19 year old athlete pushing around a piece of vulcanized rubber.

Look at our neighbours to the south, they find that balance of looking at the stars (sometimes too obsessed) but they also hold in much higher regard than we do, the likes of Gates, Buffet, Murdoch, etc. and that's what drives an economy, entrepreneurial initiative & fortitude.

You have to include "Venture Capital" in the mix. When the Lesage liberals nationalized hydro - Rene Levesque initiative they had to go to NYC to get the financing, not Canada.

 

[ParChance]

GG,

The Jewish community isn't alive and well at all & what the author omitted to mention is that everything is cyclical, as is the migration of young Jews out of Quebec. The so called leveling off is predominently due in large part because the next generational wave of qualified university grads are just now finishing up their studies and are about to embark on the workforce. They will in large part look for the highest salaries that they can get in their various fields of expertise & for the most part Quebec industry can't & doesn't offer that.

Your reference to medicine, law and engineering are actually comical, as in each of these professions a graduate can earn double outside the borders of Quebec. We won't even mention the nursing profession. If the salary gap doesn't lessen (not equal) in the professions and soon the migration of these highly touted, highly paid and potentially highly taxed individuals will leave taking with them the above mentioned benefits and most importantly their future tax paying offspring.

In private industry (the creator of REAL jobs) the only criterea that matters to any CEO is who is best qualified for the position that needs to be filled and not predominently this or that group.

 

[ParChance]

eastender,

Almost all large amounts of "Venture Capital" must be attained from the Americans as our economy is too small to finance these projects, even today.

I didn't omit to mention it, I assumed that everyone knew this but you're correct, that's why every Quebec Premier had & will always have to go to speak to those in NYC who decide on the bond rating of this or any economy. Even Rene Levesque and even the crustacean/pot loving bullshiter Pariveau had to do it.

 

[General Gonad]

Your reference to medicine, law and engineering are actually comical, as in each of these professions a graduate can earn double outside the borders of Quebec. We won't even mention the nursing profession. If the salary gap doesn't lessen (not equal) in the professions and soon the migration of these highly touted, highly paid and potentially highly taxed individuals will leave taking with them the above mentioned benefits and most importantly their future tax paying offspring. .

I agree with you here, but this is a problem for policymakers, many of whom are oblivious to this trend. BTW, many highly educated "Quebecois de souche" are also leaving this province to get higher salaries elsewhere. These French-Quebecers are bilingual, highly skilled and mobile.

But I do not think that salary gaps among provinces' professionals will lead to a mass exodus like the one we had when the PQ came to power in '76. People are not stupid. They know that cities that offer higher salaries also cost a lot more to live in. In many cases, it simply isn't worth leaving if you factor in all the points that will affect your quality of life, including traffic and long commutes.

Let me repeat what I stated earlier: I am convinced that Bill 101 is empowering young anglos and ethnics. The new generation of anglos and ethnics will be fluently bilingual, allowing them to compete in Quebec's labor force. Many will leave but most of them will stay, especially if they can earn a decent living here.

GG

 

[Ben Dover]

In Toronto, ones stands a 0% percent chance of getting a job if they don't speak English. So much for off-the-cuff statistics.

With all due respect Sapman, I would love to know the source that you referenced for this statistic. By "off-the-cuff" do you mean "made-up"??

Have you ever been to Toronto?

In case you haven't, or for others who haven't, it would probably usefull for someone who has spent extensive time there to point out the following:

- There are dozens of vibrant ethnic communities in Toronto
- All of these communities are allowed to conduct business in whatever language they choose and post their signs, advertisements etc accordingly.
- There are MANY ethnic neighborhoods where you could walk into a store speaking Korean, Chinese, Portugese, Italian, Senegalese, Spanish, Hebrew, Arabic, Hindi, etc etc etc... where the sign is in that language, the service is in that language and not one word of English (or French) is needed to acheive your business goal.
- Banking services are also offered by banks small and large in a dozen languages
- Jobs are advertised online and in the newspaper EVERY DAY looking for people who speak languages other than English.
- There are I believe close to 2 dozen local community newspapers that are written entirly in languages other than English including (ones I know of) for Hungarian, Greek, Turkish, Armernian, Russian, etc etc etc.

I would argue that if you speak no English you could get a job (some job, maybe not a great job) in ONE DAY in Toronto. Try doing that in Montreal with no French. Even in an "English" area (not sure that really exists anymore), in a store that serves mostly English-speaking customers, they will be afraid to hire someone who speaks only English for fear of repercussions.... While in Toronto it's not unusual to come across many people working hard without being about to speak English well or at all.

And, in Toronto, if you were a poor hardworking immigrant who tried hard, saved up and eventually bought a home for your family, you would actually be able to see the value of your real estate investment rise over time. You could send you kids to a Chinese school, or a French school (yes they exisit in Toronto and anyone who wants to and is able to is allowed to attend them) or a Hebrew school or an Italian school or whatever school you want because as parents you are allowed to decide where you children are educated instead of having big brother bill 101 decide it for you...

... But I must be missing something, right? Please remind me why "ethnic cleasning" (I agree with Techman's use of this term -- sorry for those of you who find this offensive) limitations on freedom of choice and economic stagnation are good things... I missed that chapter in university.

Also, it drives me nuts when people say that posts in this thread are bashing the French language. It would be nice if someone could please highlight this bashing and trashing for me, because I re-read the entire thread twice and have not come across any comments of this nature or anything disrespectful. Quite to the contrary...

BD

BTW, I'm looking forward to some replies in French. It's beautiful language and I enjoy reading it, hearing and speaking it... Writing it, not as much...

 

[beautydigger]

So when we're all part of the North American Union what will be the official language, French or Spanish?

 

[ParChance]

GG,

I'm sorry but I do not see your correlation between the salaries of professionals & policymakers. Are you referring to politicians as being policymakers ? If you are, decisions by politicians or bureaucrats are not made in any wishful vacuum, they are made based on what can be afforded by those who pay them.

Take for example Drs, Quebec can't pay more because Quebec doesn't have the money to pay more. A medical specialist in Quebec makes about 1/2 of what his/her counterpart does in Ontario so if you were a young Dr graduating from medical school, where would you go ?

 

[General Gonad]

enough with the ethnic cleansing accusations

... But I must be missing something, right? Please remind me why "ethnic cleasning" (I agree with Techman's use of this term -- sorry for those of you who find this offensive) limitations on freedom of choice and economic stagnation are good things... I missed that chapter in university.

Also, it drives me nuts when people say that posts in this thread are bashing the French language. It would be nice if someone could please highlight this bashing and trashing for me, because I re-read the entire thread twice and have not come across any comments of this nature or anything disrespectful. Quite to the contrary...

BD,

I think both you and sapman are wrong. There are vibrant ethnic communities in both cities and you can easily get a job in both cities speaking neither of Canada's official languages (not a great job but a job).

Nobody is bashing French here but I find it insulting when I read nonsense like "ethnic cleansing" in regards to Quebec's anglos and allophones. The majority of French Quebecers are not racists and we should respect this fact by omitting the use of terms that typically are associated with atrocities of war.

As for economic stagnation, Quebec and Ontario have added many jobs in the last five years, only to be outdone by Calgary. Where exactly do you see economic stagnation? Moreover, there are many community newspapers, tv channels, radio shows, and ethnic 'ghettos' here in Montreal. I do not see any efforts by the government of Quebec to quash them; quite the contrary, they are subsidizing many cultural community schools and programs.

GG

 

[ParChance]

GG,

I'd truly like to subscribe to your edenostic view about the subsidizing of the cultural communities in Quebec but I don't. They have no legal choice but to do so, as they are subsidizing the French communities too. Should they choose to stop subsidizing the ethnic communities and continue to subsidize French speaking communities affairs & projects, they would be hit with law suits from so many different angles that their heads would spin more than the turnstile of the Parti Quebecois leadership portfolio since 1976.

 

[General Gonad]

CJC: Adoption of a policy to Combat Racism and Discrimination

I'd truly like to subscribe to your edenostic view about the subsidizing of the cultural communities in Quebec but I don't. They have no legal choice but to do so, as they are subsidizing the French communities too. Should they choose to stop subsidizing the ethnic communities and continue to subsidize French speaking communities affairs & projects, they would be hit with law suits from so many different angles that their heads would spin more than the turnstile of the Parti Quebecois leadership portfolio since 1976.

Very true but I also thought they were partially subsidizing other language courses.

As far as an excellent discussion on this topic, I think everyone should read what the Canadian Jewish Congress put out last August:

www.cjc.ca/docs/RD/190_RacismBrief_FINAL.doc

I quote:

"However, it must also be stated from the outset that if the current exercise is to have any impact on racism and discrimination in this province, Quebec’s leadership must take responsibility for the utter failure of existing programs. The Quebec Public Service is already under a mandatory obligation to ensure that 25% of new Public Service hiring involves members of a cultural community, Native persons, Anglophones, or handicapped persons. Instead the current percentage from minority or disadvantaged groups is dismal. It is no wonder therefore, that many minorities come to the conclusion that the under-representation of minority groups in the Quebec public service is evidence of systemic and institutional discrimination by Quebec’s largest employer, the government. By failing to take the lead is ensuring that its own hiring practices are consistent with stated intentions to provide equal opportunities to all Quebecers the government itself is guilty of practicing discrimination in the labor market. The government cannot continue to preach equality while practicing the opposite in its own house.

Seeing members of one’s group reflected in government institutions and decision-making bodies is a critical issue for minority groups. The lack of will on the part of Quebec’s leadership to commit to real change in the culture of Quebec’s public sector is a recipe for future social unrest on a scale yet to be experienced in this province. Limited input into government decision making on the part of cultural minorities is a significant contributing factor to feelings of disempowerment. The Paris riots must serve as a constant reminder that feelings of alienation and disempowerment among immigrant communities can lead to terrible consequences.

Too often the government seeks to justify its failure to implement its own policies by shifting the blame to minority groups themselves. The lack of a qualified candidate pool from cultural minorities appears to be a favourite excuse. The excuse was given as a reason for the failure to appoint provincial court judges from cultural communities in a meeting between the Honorable Lise Thériault and the president of Canadian Jewish Congress, Quebec Region, the president of the Italian National Congress and representative from the Sikh communities.

Quebec’s leadership, of all political stripes, must cease searching for reasons to justify its abysmal performance. They must ensure that Quebecers of all origins have equal opportunity to participate in Quebec society by taking firm and immediate measures to open the public service to all. The real fight to end racism and discrimination will only begin when the government finally injects sufficient public funds into programs that eliminate the under-representation of non-Francophones in the public sector. True rapprochement between cultural groups occurs in the workplace and it is there that the battle against racism and discrimination must begin in earnest."

Kudos to the CJC for putting this out.

GG

 

[sapman99]

With all due respect Sapman, I would love to know the source that you referenced for this statistic. By "off-the-cuff" do you mean "made-up"??

Have you ever been to Toronto?

(snipped, but his post is further up in the thread)

Hi Ben, I have had the pleasure of living in Toronto for 15 years, and to be told on more than one occasion to "speak English, this is Canada" when I was speaking to someone French, by bystanders who wanted to become part of our private conversation.

The off-the-cuff statistic referred to a previous poster who said non-francos stood a 5% chance of getting a job here...

And yes, one will find "joe jobs" not speaking the main languages, in Montréal or Toronto. And jobs are also offered here in Montréal looking for people who speak OTHER languages as well as French.

In fact, because so many Torontonians "have no time " to learn French, a lot of plum jobs are available there for those who do. Strangely enough, bilingualism here is not enough to muddle through as it is there. That alone will tell you where the main body of skilled bilingual (English and French) people reside. It ain't Toronto.

Are there not community newspapers here in other languages? Montréal is no different in this respect.

In Montréal's Chinatown, the CIBC branch has mainly Asian clerks, and signs in Chinese.

What is pernicious about language laws and their actual effect: yes, Ben, you are correct in pointing out about the signs. The Quebec government IS coercive about this. But when it comes to the actual service to the population, the Quebec government far and away serves it's English minority better than any province serves the French, save N-B.

 

[Ben Dover]

BD,
I think both you and sapman are wrong. There are vibrant ethnic communities in both cities and you can easily get a job in both cities speaking neither of Canada's official languages (not a great job but a job).

I never said that there were not any vibrant ethnic communities in Montreal. I was talking about Toronto! Montreal has some (very small) ethnic hubs like china town (someone needs to remind me why the Chinese appear as the only exception to the signage laws) and little Italy which pale in comparison to the corresponding vibrant ethnic communities in many other cities because they are visually muted by the language laws.

Nobody is bashing French here but I find it insulting when I read nonsense like "ethnic cleansing" in regards to Quebec's anglos and allophones.

First of all it's not my term. I just happen to agree with it. Anytime legislation is introduced whose goal is to empower one ethnic group at the expense of another, it is a form of ethnic cleansing, no matter how unappealing that term is to some people. If this is not case then how can you possibly explain why the RATIO of anglophones who have left Montreal since 1976 versus the ratio of Francophones who have left is not even on a comparable scale. Please enlighten me... As someone else alluded, maybe instead of "ethnic cleansing" the term "nicely encourage the anglos to leave" would be better? What term would you use GG... maybe cleansing is too strong. How about "ethnic tidying up" or maybe just a little "ethic dusting"

As for economic stagnation, Quebec and Ontario have added many jobs in the last five years, only to be outdone by Calgary. Where exactly do you see economic stagnation?

Oops, I was looking a little further than just the last 5 years. How about we look at the entire time since the laws we are discussing were implemented?

Now do you see the stagnation?

Did you know that Toronto's population in 1976 was just over 1 million? Do you know what it is now.... 5 million

Here are some population stats for you (from Wikipedia):

Island of Montreal
Population by year
1931 - 1,003,868
1941 - 1,116,800
1951 - 1,329,232
1961 - 1,747,696
1971 - 1,959,140
1976 - 1,869,585
1981 - 1,760,122
1986 - 1,819,670
1991 - 1,815,202
1996 - 1,775,846[17]
2001 - 1,812,723[18]
2006 - 1,854,442[18]

NOTE: There are LESS inhabitants in 2006 vs. 1976... hmmmm?? I guess stagnation is not the word... I should have said DECLINE

and now Toronto: 100% growth between 1976 and 2006 (or 35% population growth if you count the same geographical area that was measured in 1976, not the entire GTA)

So, if Montreal can have another 20 years that are as "great" as the last 5, then by 2027 we might regain what we had economically in the 1970's!!

Sounds great GG!

Thanks!

BD

 

[Dee]

As a matter of interest... re Montreal

From this first page you can navigate to the electoral district of your choice and see whole bunch of interesting facts and see how it compares to Montreal as a whole:

http://ville.montreal.qc.ca/portal/p...chema=PORT AL

I went to the following link.... and got the figures below for Montreal as a whole:

http://ville.montreal.qc.ca/pls/port...mance_2005.pdf

Montreal as a whole (2001 census):

52% women

Language at home-one choice:

French 69%
English: 16%
Other: 15%

Knowledge of official languages:

French only: 32%
English only: 10%
French and English: 55%
Neither: 3%

 

[Techman]

Techman,

You take this issue way too emotionally. You use silly terms like 'ethnic cleansing', inferiority complex, and you are convinced that things have already taken an ugly turn.

I am not denying that there is discrimination in this province. If your name isn't "Jean-Guy Pépin", you're not going to find work at a French institution very easily. But there still is a vibrant anglo and ethnic community here in Montreal and I see it strengthening in the future, especially the ethnics. If it was as bad as you claim, why aren't we seeing a massive exodus of people leaving every year? If you have official statistics to corroborate your claims, then please enlighten us all.

BTW, I have not seen any official document claiming that anglos or ethnics are not "permitted" to be more than a certain percentage of the population. What I worry about in Quebec is this pervasive parochialism that is slowly but surely creeping into French dominated institutions. That is a problem that only the politicians and business leaders can properly address with policies to diversify their workforce appropriately.

GG

P.S. sapman is right, anglos and ethnics should learn to speak and write French if they want to work and live in this province. I would add that French Quebecers better learn to speak and write English if they want to get the top jobs of the future.

GG, I guess your're right. No ugly turns here in Quebec. It's not like we have had multiple referenda with bogus questions...PQ leaders blaming things on ethnics and money...terrorist kidnappings, bombs, and murders...those same terrorists being given a hero's welcome upon their return from exile...laws making english a second class language...political parties dedicated to the destruction of Canada...
Oops, sorry. That's exactly what we have had in the last few decades.
Are those things ugly enough for ya? How many more ugly turns have to be taken before we simply drive off the cliff?
Oh yeah...Camille Laurin felt the same way about the inferiority complex of French Quebec. I'm just following his lead.

http://www.imperatif-francais.org/bienvenu/articles/2007/accommodements-raisonnables.html

Il en résulte que 54 % des allophones opèrent toujours des transferts linguistiques vers l’anglais alors qu’ils ne devraient être au plus que de 8,3 %, soit le poids démographique de la minorité anglophone d’origine au sein de la population du Québec

.

Afin d’éviter que le Québec se retrouve dans une situation aux ramifications imprévisibles, la Commission Bouchard-Taylor doit condamner ces « accommodements déraisonnables » que sont l’article 23 de la Charte canadienne des droits et le laxisme dans l’application de la Charte de la langue française. La Commission doit affirmer clairement qu’il est impératif que :

- la population du Québec connaisse le français;
- le français devienne la véritable langue de communication, de travail et d’affaires;
- l’intégration des immigrants se fasse en respectant les proportions entre les populations majoritaire francophone (91,7 %) et minoritaire anglophone (8,3 %).

How's this for a nice example for you? Maybe I should change my term to ethnic 'population control' instead of cleansing? I am aware that this does not come from the government but from an independant group but I believe more French Quebecers feel the same way than would have the guts to admit it.

And by the way...the anglo population of Quebec is the most bilingual group of any in Canada. Much more so than the French population of Quebec.

Techman

Also...my name may not be "Jean-Guy Pépin", but it's close enough. I am as 'pur laine' as it gets. I just choose not to be a racist or insecure.

 

[Ben Dover]

BD,
Why do you look at Montreal Island? St. Lambert is much closer to downtown, and much more part of Montreal's economic sphere than Pierrefonds. Laval is very much part of Montreal's economy, so is the whole south shore from Chateauguay to Varennes.

For many Montrealers, as they become wealthier, they leave the rented tenements of Hochelaga for off-island single family dwellings in Brossard, Laval and Boucherville.

Right. Let's look at the entire province of Quebec compared to the entire province of Ontario.

1976 to 2006: Total QC population is up 21%
1976 to 2006: Total ON population is up 47%

I don' think this has anything to do with people moving to Laval. A lot of people must have driven right past Laval on their way to Ontario...

Now (again from Wikipedia) please have a look at the percentage of native English speakers in the province of Quebec:

Is the decline that hard to see?

Evolution of the language populations in Quebec Mother Tongue / Year
1951
French 82.5%
English 13.8%
Allophones 3.7%

1971
French 80.7%
English 13.1%
Allophones 6.2%

1981
French 82.4%
English 11.0%
Allophones 6.6%

1991
French 82.1%
English 9.6%
Allophones 8.3%

2001
French 81.2%
English 8.0%
Allophones 10.0%

2011?
English 4.0%???

2021
English 2.0%???

2031
Anglais? Il-y-avais des Anglais ici? Ben, non... c'est pas possible.

BD

 

[sapman99]

And by the way...the anglo population of Quebec is the most bilingual group of any in Canada. Much more so than the French population of Quebec.

Unless you can show me statistics to the contrary, I would argue that the francophone population of all other provinces outside Québec is the most bilingual (or assimilated) group of any in Canada. Much more so than the English population of Québec.

I will always remember my trip to Penetanguishene Ontario, and buying corn from "monsieur Dubeau". He looked over his shoulder before replying French, just in case anyone was looking. Ten years previous, French was flourishing in this Central Ontario town, visited by Étienne Brûlé and countless other explorers of yore. But, Mike Harris came along. Talk about getting out the redneck vote, this guy had it, in spades...

 

[eastender]

Population Numbers

Evolution of the language populations in Quebec Mother Tongue / Year
1951
French 82.5%
English 13.8%
Allophones 3.7%

1971
French 80.7%
English 13.1%
Allophones 6.2%

1981
French 82.4%
English 11.0%
Allophones 6.6%

1991
French 82.1%
English 9.6%
Allophones 8.3%

2001
French 81.2%
English 8.0%
Allophones 10.0%

2011?
English 4.0%???

2021
English 2.0%???

2031
Anglais? Il-y-avais des Anglais ici? Ben, non... c'est pas possible.

BD

In 1951 the population of Quebec was 4 million = 3.3 million French speaking.

In 2001 the population of Quebec was 7.2 million = 5.85 million French speaking.

Source Canada Census numbers applied to aformentionned percentages.

The actual numbers speak for themselves.

 

[sapman99]

I agree

With everything you just said C-Cup!

Thank you for an excellent roundup of the situation.

 

[jacep]

- english peoples can be served in english 99% of the time in Québec,

I think that you mean that English people can be served in English about 99% of the time in Montreal and not 99% of the time in Quebec (city or province). I would say that the number is probably around or over 90% of the time in Montreal. In Hull, I would say that it is roughly the same as in Montreal if not higher (even though I've never been there). In Quebec City, I would say that the value probably goes to around 60%-70% but then I'm not 100% sure about this since when I've gone to Quebec City, I will generally speak French. I would give Lennoxville around 70%-75% and Sherbrooke around the same value as Quebec City.

Even though I've never gone to the places below, based on some of my friends who come from there, I would say that going to St-Hyacinthe, I would say that the number is roughly the same as Quebec City if not slightly lower. In Saguenay-Lac St-Jean, I would say that it is probably below 25% and in Saint-Jean (which used to be the St-Luc area), I would also say that it is around 25% or lower. In Chicoutimi, it will probably be under 20%.

 

[Techman]

People who argue that we are poor because of the OLF (read some of the other posts) are way off base IMHO. The sign laws are a compromise that Quebecers seem to want, the education policies too.

I don't think anyone said that the OLF were responsible for the currrent state of affairs in Quebec. They are just an arm of the government who is responsible. And where do you get the impression that people actually want the sign laws or the education laws? In fact French Quebecers would love to have the right to educate their children in whatever language they wish. I have a good number of French friends who pay through the nose and have to deal with waiting lists to have their children educated in ENGLISH private schools because they can't send them to the English public system. I fail to see where any of this is a compromise in any way where the English are concerned. Basically it's 'this is the way it is. Accept it or get out!' Am i the only one here who thinks that having the OLF go into companies and tell them that the English labels on their air-conditioner are illegal and have to be removed or face a fine is just a little bit petty?

And by the way...unilingual English people, the few who are actually unilingual, who get degrees have no problems finding work. They just leave the province and get higher paying jobs than they could have ever gotten here in Quebec. And they do this on our tax dollar. Whereas the unilingual French students who graduate, and there are many of them, are stuck here in Quebec where the job market is depressed. So in the end, who are the language laws really hurting?

Techman