Are Quebec's anglophones at risk?

[General Gonad]

Hein, Impératif français

http://www.imperatif-francais.org/bienvenu/articles/2007/accommodements-raisonnables.html

How's this for a nice example for you? Maybe I should change my term to ethnic 'population control' instead of cleansing? I am aware that this does not come from the government but from an independant group but I believe more French Quebecers feel the same way than would have the guts to admit it.

Techman,

I got this info from that website:

IMPÉRATIF FRANÇAIS

... est un organisme culturel de recherche et de communication voué à la défense et à la promotion de la langue et de la culture d'expression française.


That is all I needed to read to dismiss everything they write as pure fraud and nonsense. These groups make me sick because they are spreading fear among French Quebecers and they serve no social purpose whatsoever.

I still think that the term "ethnic cleansing" is not appropriate and very insulting. The minority of French Quebecers who dream of a unilingual, monolithic, unicultural Quebec are going to be very disappointed as they continue losing highly skilled workers to the Rest of Canada and the United States. I sometimes wish they got what they wanted.

GG

 

[z/m(Ret)]

Quicksand swallows those who fight

Anglophones and Francophones resenting each other translates into everyone's loss. Goya's "Men Fighting with Sticks" teaches us that duelists standing knee-deep in a pool of quicksand don't notice the abyss every blow, counterattacking and dodging is rushing them into. The more heated the struggle, the faster they sink in.

 

[eastender]

Union Influences

I think the idea of path-dependence is that it is HARD to get an industry to move. The most important factor in location in many industries is to be close to others in the same industry. This is why Hollywood still dominates in movies and NYC and London in particuliar, are so important still today. If the most important thing is to be close to the other players it means you don't mind moving but everyone has to agree to move together, no one will make the first move, it's a sort of prisoner's dilemma. I think this is the main reason why NYC never really lost its dominance, even if, maybe Chicago should have overtaken NYC. I am pretty sure some other city should have overtaken London by now (like maybe Frankfurt or Tokyo) but path-dependency keeps London on top (London being English-Speaking may now also be an bigger and bigger help because English is becoming the international language of choice).

The movement of American industries towards the "Right to Work States" away from union influences.The movement of the convention business away from NYC and the northeast towards Atlanta and Vegas, influenced by the high cost of union controlled venues are counterpoints that should be considered.

Off shore manufacturing in non-union countries - Gildan based here in Montreal but manufacturing virtually everything outside North America.

 

[Techman]

Ethnic cleansing refers to various policies or practices aimed at the displacement of an ethnic group from a particular territory in order to create a supposedly ethnically "pure" society.

Hmmm...'Pur Laine' Quebecois...the familiar chant of the separatists, le Quebec aux Quebecois...language laws aimed at destroying the English school system...the constant threat of separation that pushes Anglos to leave the province... all seem to fit the definition as I see it.

Ethnic cleansing is a well-defined policy of a particular group of persons to systematically eliminate another group from a given territory on the basis of religious, ethnic or national origin.

Isn't that exactly what is being achieved by the language laws and policies here in Quebec?

You want to tell me again how the definition doesn't apply to what is going on here? The only thing missing is the violence, which they know very well they could never get away with.

Maybe one day, Quebec's success will be added to the definition as an example of a non-violent means to achieve it.

Techman

 

[eastender]

High Finance

Don't think that this was a factor in moving high finance to Toronto though.

Canadian high finance is far from American or International high finance.
Evidence = when the Lesage liberals nationalized hydro they had to go to NYC for the financing.

 

[z/m(Ret)]

Los Angeles counterexample................

The movement of American industries towards the "Right to Work States" away from union influences.The movement of the convention business away from NYC and the northeast towards Atlanta and Vegas, influenced by the high cost of union controlled venues are counterpoints that should be considered.

Off shore manufacturing in non-union countries - Gildan based here in Montreal but manufacturing virtually everything outside North America.

LA, known as a top 5 world richest city, is also known for gaping income disparities and hosting US's largest pool of low-wage immigrant workers. Conversely, LA is also home to some of the most active and influential labor federations in the US.

Somewhat contradicts the common wisdom.

 

[eastender]

Common Wisdom

LA, known as a top 5 world richest city, is also known for gaping income disparities and hosting US's largest pool of low-wage immigrant workers. Conversely, LA is also home to some of the most active and influential labor federations in the US.

Somewhat contradicts the common wisdom.

Common wisdom at times is an oxymoron. You are correct about Los Angeles being paradoxical. It is also interesting that some of the poorer states - West Virginia being one,are not "Right to Work States".

Part of the equation is portability. In the USA you are able to take your credentials and qualifications with you from state to state. The opposite is true in Canada, many of the provincial qualifications are not readily portable - example in the construction trades.

 

[z/m(Ret)]

Ethnic Cleansing

Techman,

If the expression defines best your understanding of the issues, use it at will. Fine by me also if you wish to include "genocide" in your lexicon. At that point, I'm not the one who's making a fool of myself. Sorry...

 

[General Gonad]

One day Francophones in Quebec got sick and tired of being second-class citizens in their own province, of having to fight for the right to speak their own language at work, of having no access to French universities to have prospects, like their English bosses, for better jobs so one day they made laws that would empower their community. Lucky for them, they had a power of law-making the francophone community in Ontario (and other provinces) lacks. Quebec has many faults, but the oppression of the Anglophone community is certainly not one of them.

t76,

Thanks for sharing your perspective. Terms like ethnic cleansing or oppression have no place this discussion. Instead of rationally assessing their situation, people here let their emotions govern their arguments (lol, did I just state this).

Having said this, there is a problem in Quebec. Again, the best criticism I have read on the problems faced by the anglophone and ethnic communities here in Quebec was written last August by the Canadian Jewish Congress in this document:

www.cjc.ca/docs/RD/190_RacismBrief_FINAL.doc

The appropriate term is not ethnic cleanings but ethnic underrepresentation.

I quote:

"However, it must also be stated from the outset that if the current exercise is to have any impact on racism and discrimination in this province, Quebec’s leadership must take responsibility for the utter failure of existing programs. The Quebec Public Service is already under a mandatory obligation to ensure that 25% of new Public Service hiring involves members of a cultural community, Native persons, Anglophones, or handicapped persons. Instead the current percentage from minority or disadvantaged groups is dismal. It is no wonder therefore, that many minorities come to the conclusion that the under-representation of minority groups in the Quebec public service is evidence of systemic and institutional discrimination by Quebec’s largest employer, the government. By failing to take the lead is ensuring that its own hiring practices are consistent with stated intentions to provide equal opportunities to all Quebecers the government itself is guilty of practicing discrimination in the labor market. The government cannot continue to preach equality while practicing the opposite in its own house.

Seeing members of one’s group reflected in government institutions and decision-making bodies is a critical issue for minority groups. The lack of will on the part of Quebec’s leadership to commit to real change in the culture of Quebec’s public sector is a recipe for future social unrest on a scale yet to be experienced in this province. Limited input into government decision making on the part of cultural minorities is a significant contributing factor to feelings of disempowerment. The Paris riots must serve as a constant reminder that feelings of alienation and disempowerment among immigrant communities can lead to terrible consequences.

Too often the government seeks to justify its failure to implement its own policies by shifting the blame to minority groups themselves. The lack of a qualified candidate pool from cultural minorities appears to be a favourite excuse. The excuse was given as a reason for the failure to appoint provincial court judges from cultural communities in a meeting between the Honorable Lise Thériault and the president of Canadian Jewish Congress, Quebec Region, the president of the Italian National Congress and representative from the Sikh communities.

Quebec’s leadership, of all political stripes, must cease searching for reasons to justify its abysmal performance. They must ensure that Quebecers of all origins have equal opportunity to participate in Quebec society by taking firm and immediate measures to open the public service to all. The real fight to end racism and discrimination will only begin when the government finally injects sufficient public funds into programs that eliminate the under-representation of non-Francophones in the public sector. True rapprochement between cultural groups occurs in the workplace and it is there that the battle against racism and discrimination must begin in earnest."

Unless the government takes the lead to ensure fair representation of Quebec's minorities in the Public Service, we will see more social friction developing here as anglos and ethnics will feel like second class citizens in this province.


GG

 

[Techman]

Here we go again...complaining about the treatment of the french outside of Quebec. That is not relevant to the discussion. If there were only a couple of hundred Anglos in Montreal, I wouldn't be bitching about the lack of schools or services as I would not expect them to be readily available. I don't remember Ontario ever having laws prohibiting French signs, limits on the size of French on signs or labels on things such as A/C units or photocopiers either.

As far as my 'ethnic cleansing' comment...well if you can figure out a more applicable term for what is happening here I would like to hear it. Maybe it seems a bit harsh as it is usually connected to a genocide as many like to point out and that will never happen here. But what else do you call it when one specific group of people is targeted for extinction by oppressive laws and government policies? Putting out the 'exit mat'?

Deny it all you want. The facts are the facts and the day we can't send children to English schools is coming faster than anyone seems to want to realize because they won't be any English schools or institutions left as the numbers of English in the population will not warrant them!

Quebec has many faults, but the oppression of the Anglophone community is certainly not one of them.

Really? What is it then...a virtue?

Everyone should be permitted to send their children to be educated in the language of their choice. If more happen to choose English, then so be it. Why not give them reasons to learn French, to be educated in French, instead of giving them no choice? Show the pride you have in the language, the beauty of the language, promote the language and the Quebec culture, give them valid reasons to learn it. But no... we can't do that. We are so insecure that no one will choose french that we have to force it on them. And then we complain when people resent it and have a commission on 'Reasonable Accommodation'. What a joke. Yes...let's protect everyone from the evil called English. Can't have people learning the most important language in the world. Maybe Celine Dion should have never learned English. Then she could have been as successful as Rene Simard instead of having to sing in that terrible language and become a world renown superstar and multimillionaire.

Freedom to live how you want, to learn, to speak, to work, in the language you want, however you want. And to allow others to do the same. Such a terrible concept.

And you know who I blame for all the problems here? It's not the PQ, or even the 'federalist' Liberals who, under the spineless Robert Bourrassa, brought in Bill 22 in the first place. It's the federal government of Canada for allowing Quebec to put laws such as Bill 22 and Bill 101 in place to begin with, for bending over to Quebec whenever they cried loud enough about separation. For treating Quebec like a spoiled child, allowing it to do whatever the hell it pleased, instead of giving it a good spanking.

Techman

 

[eastender]

Ethnic Underrepresentation

The appropriate term is not ethnic cleanings but ethnic underrepresentation.

I quote:

"However, it must also be stated from the outset that if the current exercise is to have any impact on racism and discrimination in this province, Quebec’s leadership must take responsibility for the utter failure of existing programs. The Quebec Public Service is already under a mandatory obligation to ensure that 25% of new Public Service hiring involves members of a cultural community, Native persons, Anglophones, or handicapped persons. Instead the current percentage from minority or disadvantaged groups is dismal. It is no wonder therefore, that many minorities come to the conclusion that the under-representation of minority groups in the Quebec public service is evidence of systemic and institutional discrimination by Quebec’s largest employer, the government. By failing to take the lead is ensuring that its own hiring practices are consistent with stated intentions to provide equal opportunities to all Quebecers the government itself is guilty of practicing discrimination in the labor market. The government cannot continue to preach equality while practicing the opposite in its own house.

Seeing members of one’s group reflected in government institutions and decision-making bodies is a critical issue for minority groups. The lack of will on the part of Quebec’s leadership to commit to real change in the culture of Quebec’s public sector is a recipe for future social unrest on a scale yet to be experienced in this province. Limited input into government decision making on the part of cultural minorities is a significant contributing factor to feelings of disempowerment. The Paris riots must serve as a constant reminder that feelings of alienation and disempowerment among immigrant communities can lead to terrible consequences.

Too often the government seeks to justify its failure to implement its own policies by shifting the blame to minority groups themselves. The lack of a qualified candidate pool from cultural minorities appears to be a favourite excuse. The excuse was given as a reason for the failure to appoint provincial court judges from cultural communities in a meeting between the Honorable Lise Thériault and the president of Canadian Jewish Congress, Quebec Region, the president of the Italian National Congress and representative from the Sikh communities.

Quebec’s leadership, of all political stripes, must cease searching for reasons to justify its abysmal performance. They must ensure that Quebecers of all origins have equal opportunity to participate in Quebec society by taking firm and immediate measures to open the public service to all. The real fight to end racism and discrimination will only begin when the government finally injects sufficient public funds into programs that eliminate the under-representation of non-Francophones in the public sector. True rapprochement between cultural groups occurs in the workplace and it is there that the battle against racism and discrimination must begin in earnest."

Unless the government takes the lead to ensure fair representation of Quebec's minorities in the Public Service, we will see more social friction developing here as anglos and ethnics will feel like second class citizens in this province.


GG

GG

This is a chicken and egg problem. Look at the situation with provincial judges. In theory qualified lawyers may be named provincial judges. This DOES NOT mean that the BEST lawyers are named provincial judges or that they would accept such a nomination.

The BEST lawyers regardless of nationality earn much more than provincial judges,have their choice of jurisdiction/domicile, their choice of clients, their choice of schedule,etc so why would they accept such a position?

Do not assume that the various civil service jobs are that attractive to the elite candidates in any group.The same applies at various other levels. There are "ethnic niche" professionals catering to their community needs making more money with better conditions and advantages then they would get as civil servants.

Furthermore the concept of belonging to a union is alien to many immigrant groups, which further inhibits their entry into civil service jobs.

While noble on paper your proposal faces many practical hurdles when it comes to the application stage.

 

[sapman99]

Here we go again...complaining about the treatment of the french outside of Quebec. That is not relevant to the discussion. If there were only a couple of hundred Anglos in Montreal, I wouldn't be bitching about the lack of schools or services as I would not expect them to be readily available. I don't remember Ontario ever having laws prohibiting French signs, limits on the size of French on signs or labels on things such as A/C units or photocopiers either.

There are not only a few hundred francophones outside Québec. There are a couple of hundred thousand francophones in the Ottawa area alone. Many thousand in Toronto, but invisible because of their bilingualism.

You yourself said the number of Anglos here in Montréal is down. It is true the number of Francos (who use French every day) in the rest of Canada in down. Could that be because they have been systematically put down, and subtly "encouraged" to blend in with the majority.

Are you saying that the rest of Canada has succeeded in accomplishing what you say the govt't of Québec is trying, to reduce the number of "minority language" inhabitants enough so that no one cares? Your premise is redolent of double standards. I frankly expected more of you.

The Ontario government no longer uses legislation to keep the Franc-Ontarian population down. Under Harris, they simply cut their funds off, named John Baird as Minister of Francophonie (une ostie de guidoune, ça, Baird), tried to close Montfort Hospital in Ottawa.

You sound like Jacques Parizeau, who had said that francophones outside Québec were like warm bodies, dying a slow death (he was asked what effect he thought Québec leaving would have on the francophone community outside the province would have).

So in essence you are saying, anglos in Québec deserve more, but the "handful" of francophones outside Québec deserve naught? Ok.

Réveille-toi, bonhomme, je te lis et j'hallucine.

 

[z/m(Ret)]

Migration movements

As far as my 'ethnic cleansing' comment...well if you can figure out a more applicable term for what is happening here I would like to hear it.

Techman,

Long term demographic impact of Bill 22 and 101 appears to have brought down the traditional in-migration flow of English-speakers to a near halt. "Appears" is the operating word given the broader assessment of population displacement and dynamics.

On a planetary scale, industrial delocalization, poverty, unemployment, work precariousness are prime factors to migration movements. Important South-North and East-West flux of low and high qualified migrants and some North-South counter-movements from China and South-East Asia to Australia as well as from Ghana to South Africa are being regularly observed.

Similarly, in Canada, the majority of observed flows are from lower to higher wage provinces and considerations of the flows of job competition. Such considerations are not typically language-policies driven given that a growing out-flux of qualified Quebec francophones is moving both West and South.

 

[eastender]

Anglo Population

Evolution of the language populations in Quebec Mother Tongue / Year
1951
French 82.5%
English 13.8%
Allophones 3.7%

1971
French 80.7%
English 13.1%
Allophones 6.2%

1981
French 82.4%
English 11.0%
Allophones 6.6%

1991
French 82.1%
English 9.6%
Allophones 8.3%

2001
French 81.2%
English 8.0%
Allophones 10.0%

BD

Alot has been written about the declining Anglo population. Doing the actual calcutions yields interesting numbers.

In 1951 the app. Anglo population was 552,000

In 2001 the app. Anglo population was 576,000

Data obtained by applying percentages to the population numbers.

So there were more Anglos in Quebec in 2001 than in 1951. Hardly evidence of ethnic cleansing. Granted the numbers are not proportionate to the overall increase in population from 4Million to 7.2Million BUT why should they be proportionate? Why make the faulty assumption that Anglos or any group for that matter cannot choose to go elsewhere?

Starting in the early 1960's a number of prime industries left the east end of Montreal for various reasons - oil refineries, shipping, the Angus Shops and related perphials all reduced significantly or closed operations. This impacted on English/French/Ethnic groups BUT only the French stayed the two other groups moved to western Canada.

 

[eastender]

Do Not Assume For Others

There are not only a few hundred francophones outside Québec. There are a couple of hundred thousand francophones in the Ottawa area alone. Many thousand in Toronto, but invisible because of their bilingualism.

You yourself said the number of Anglos here in Montréal is down. It is true the number of Francos (who use French every day) in the rest of Canada in down. Could that be because they have been systematically put down, and subtly "encouraged" to blend in with the majority.

Are you saying that the rest of Canada has succeeded in accomplishing what you say the govt't of Québec is trying, to reduce the number of "minority language" inhabitants enough so that no one cares? Your premise is redolent of double standards. I frankly expected more of you.

The Ontario government no longer uses legislation to keep the Franc-Ontarian population down. Under Harris, they simply cut their funds off, named John Baird as Minister of Francophonie (une ostie de guidoune, ça, Baird), tried to close Montfort Hospital in Ottawa.

You sound like Jacques Parizeau, who had said that francophones outside Québec were like warm bodies, dying a slow death (he was asked what effect he thought Québec leaving would have on the francophone community outside the province would have).

So in essence you are saying, anglos in Québec deserve more, but the "handful" of francophones outside Québec deserve naught? Ok.

Réveille-toi, bonhomme, je te lis et j'hallucine.

Sapman99/Techman,

Elsewhere I have shown that the actual body count, if you will, of Anglos, is up.

The issue of Francophones outside Quebec is interesting from the following standpoints.

The are not being held outside Quebec against their will. Accepting this I find it interesting that the norms and perceptions of Francophones in Quebec somehow apply to them. The lack or minimal movement of Francophones back to Quebec is a definitive statement to this effect. Reinforced by Francophone hockey players who prefer playing in other parts of North America.

Each individual regardless of ethnic background has the right to make legitimate choices.

 

[General Gonad]

Ethnic underrepresentation is the fundamental issue!!!

Do not assume that the various civil service jobs are that attractive to the elite candidates in any group.The same applies at various other levels. There are "ethnic niche" professionals catering to their community needs making more money with better conditions and advantages then they would get as civil servants.

Furthermore the concept of belonging to a union is alien to many immigrant groups, which further inhibits their entry into civil service jobs.

While noble on paper your proposal faces many practical hurdles when it comes to the application stage.

eastender,

What are you talking about???? Since when is the concept of belonging to a union alien to ethnics or anglos?

Guys let's get real here. Enough with the 'ethnic cleansing' accusations. The real problem is ethnic underrepresentation. The Quebec government should take the lead and deliberately set out a campaign to hire underrepresented minorities. That is what I call reasonable accommodation. I want to know that my tax dollars are not paying for salaries of French Quebecers, but all Quebecers, including disadvantaged minorities.

Why is it that the federal government has been able to achieve its goal of diversifying the federal public service but Quebec's provincial government is lagging far behind? I'll tell you why: the bureaucrats in Quebec city are racists and they're fighting tooth & nail to stop these egalitarian measures. This is what pisses me off the most - the fact that our tax dollars overwhelmingly subsidize the powerful majority of the population while token measures are taken to diversify Quebec's civil service to represent all minorities.

Ethnic underrepresentation is the fundamental issue and nobody seems to be addressing it with concrete measures and clear objectives with timelines.

>>Techman,

The government of Quebec does not need to ensure the future existence of English or ethnic schools. It will subsidize French programs in those schools but quite frankly, everyone living in Quebec is better off sending their kids to French schools at the elementary and high school level. You would be doing a great disservice to your kids not to do this. I hear people all the time bitching and whining that their kids can't find jobs. Well, this is not surprising given that they can't communicate in the official language of the province.

GG

 

[General Gonad]

I agree with you only if the kid wants to stay in Quebec for university. If they want to go outside the province to university he/she is far better off having gone to english high school and CGEP first.

Nothing prevents you from going to an English CEGEP. Moreover, let's be honest, it isn't as difficult to learn English than it is to learn French. A moron can learn English this day and age with minimal effort.

GG

 

[eastender]

Unions and Ethnics

eastender,

What are you talking about???? Since when is the concept of belonging to a union alien to ethnics or anglos?

Guys let's get real here. Enough with the 'ethnic cleansing' accusations. The real problem is ethnic underrepresentation. The Quebec government should take the lead and deliberately set out a campaign to hire underrepresented minorities. That is what I call reasonable accommodation. I want to know that my tax dollars are not paying for salaries of French Quebecers, but all Quebecers, including disadvantaged minorities.

Why is it that the federal government has been able to achieve its goal of diversifying the federal public service but Quebec's provincial government is lagging far behind? I'll tell you why: the bureaucrats in Quebec city are racists and they're fighting tooth & nail to stop these egalitarian measures. This is what pisses me off the most - the fact that our tax dollars overwhelmingly subsidize the powerful majority of the population while token measures are taken to diversify Quebec's civil service to represent all minorities.

Ethnic underrepresentation is the fundamental issue and nobody seems to be addressing it with concrete measures and clear objectives with timelines.


GG

GG,

Unions are not part of the culture or background of people immigrating from various parts of the world - former Soviet Bloc,Asia,Muslims,Hindus,Haitians etc.Never stated Anglos.


At the Federal level ethnics with quality credentials can get the quality jobs in international trade, commerce,finance etc. Such jobs are not available at the provincial level. Likewise at the federal level there is a trickle down effect and a networking system from the various universities across Canada plus movement into the federal system from various provincial and municipal governments. At the provincial level networking is very limited.

 

[General Gonad]

Unions are not part of the culture or background of people immigrating from various parts of the world - former Soviet Bloc,Asia,Muslims,Hindus,Haitians etc.Never stated Anglos.


At the Federal level ethnics with quality credentials can get the quality jobs in international trade, commerce,finance etc. Such jobs are not available at the provincial level. Likewise at the federal level there is a trickle down effect and a networking system from the various universities across Canada plus movement into the federal system from various provincial and municipal governments. At the provincial level networking is very limited.

I respectfully disagree with your assessment. The success of the federal government at diversifying their civil service is because they took the necessary measures to ensure that objectives will be met within a certain period. It's that simple.

As for your bogus comment that the civil service jobs are not in the culture or background of ethnics, I defy you to meet one ethnic parent in Quebec who would not want their kids to have the same access to civil service jobs as the majority of the population. Ethnics are not stupid; they know why government jobs are coveted by many people. I am sorry to state this but this assertion of yours is pure nonsense.

The fundamental problem is underrepresentation of disadvantaged minorities and the blatant racism of Quebec city bureaucrats. Until they take concrete measures to properly diversify the civil service, including provincial organizations, it is pointless to point to other factors, including blaming the culture and background of ethnics.

GG

 

[eastender]

Never Made Such a Comment

As for your bogus comment that the civil service jobs are not in the culture or background of ethnics, I defy you to meet one ethnic parent in Quebec who would not want their kids to have the same access to civil service jobs as the majority of the population. Ethnics are not stupid; they know why government jobs are coveted by many people. I am sorry to state this but this assertion of yours is pure nonsense.


GG

GG

Never made the comment you attribute to me. My reference was to "unions".

Ethnics do not come to Canada or Quebec with a union background or mentality.