Are Quebec's anglophones at risk?

[Techman]

Saying the separatist politicians don't care is NOT the same thing as saying the population doesn't.

Sap, you may very well be right about that. In fact what I should have said was that the majority of the population has very little knowledge of the French population outside Quebec's borders. It's hard to care about people you don't know exist.

All I would love to see is a Quebec where no one needs laws to 'protect' their culture or limit others. We are all good people here for the most part and so much time and money is being wasted on a hatred that has been engineered by politicians more than anything else. It's a shame.

 

[General Gonad]

Techman,

I am still waiting for a reply to my post#250....

GG

 

[z/m(Ret)]

101 or the 401 is that it? I seem to remember that being painted all over the place not that many years ago. Along with stop signs being painted to read '101'. Is that the best you can do Ziggy? Maybe you should go and buy some spray paint.

Leveling down to your level so we can speak the same language.

Reasonable language and presentation of facts don't seem to reach you, therefore...

You insist on using "ethnic cleansing" to describe what you believe is the reality. I'm telling you this is unacceptable and furthermore qualifies your body of work as ludicrous.

Let alone the related violence, "ethnic cleansing" would suppose at least two things: intent and result. As far as backing up your position, you failed on both counts. Demographic data shows that the absolute number of Anglophones has not changed since 1951. So much for the result. As far as intentions go, suffice to read the law for what it is and not for what you would want it to be.

The best has been submitted a number of posts back already, you keep ranting and distorting the reality nonetheless.

 

[General Gonad]

Kurds under Saddam

The Kurds suffered unspeakable atrocities under Saddam's brutal regime and managed to protect their language. They are now thriving:

http://www.reason.com/news/show/36905.html

History demonstrates that religion, language and culture can be maintained by minorities if they will it.

GG

 

[Techman]

The Kurds suffered unspeakable atrocities under Saddam's brutal regime and managed to protect their language. They are now thriving:

http://www.reason.com/news/show/36905.html

History demonstrates that language and culture can be maintained by minorities if they will it.

GG

Then why can't the French Canadians do the same? Why do they require discriminatory laws to 'survive'? Do they lack the will that's required for a culture to survive on it's own?

GG, I have Jewish friends whose families were decimated by the holocaust. I also have Armenian and Greek friends and am very well aware of their history as well. I have family members who fought and died during WWII. There is nothing you could ever hope to teach me about any of those events in history. And by the way, you left out the atrocities perpetrated by the Japanese on the Chinese during WWII.

And what the hell is your problem about the public service in Quebec? Do you actually think giving government jobs to a few hundred Anglos and immigrants will solve all the problems in Quebec or were you refused a public service job sometime during your life and you still haven't gotten over the insult?

Ziggy, I will try not to come down to your level as I don't want to get my clothes dirty slithering along the ground. I just love the way you edited your post 246. And I really don't care what is acceptable or unacceptable to you in the words I choose. As for the intent of the laws here, all I have are the words of Camille Laurin, the father of 101 himself, who said that one of the purposes of the bill was to eliminate the English school system. Sounds like intent to me. As for the result, well the process hasn't ended yet has it?

t76, you keep giving examples of how the French culture has survived despite being vastly out-numbered in various parts of Canada. Without laws and under what at times must have been tremendous hardship. But here in Quebec, even with such an immense majority, they require these discriminatory laws to ensure their survival. Both yourself and GG have given multiple examples of the ability of cultures to survive on their own but still insist that the laws here in Quebec are necessary for the survival of the French culture in Quebec. Just a little hypocritical?

Techman

 

[General Gonad]

flip your question around

Then why can't the French Canadians do the same? Why do they require discriminatory laws to 'survive'? Do they lack the will that's required for a culture to survive on it's own?

GG, I have Jewish friends whose families were decimated by the holocaust. I also have Armenian and Greek friends and am very well aware of their history as well. I have family members who fought and died during WWII. There is nothing you could ever hope to teach me about any of those events in history. And by the way, you left out the atrocities perpetrated by the Japanese on the Chinese during WWII.

And what the hell is your problem about the public service in Quebec? Do you actually think giving government jobs to a few hundred Anglos and immigrants will solve all the problems in Quebec or were you refused a public service job sometime during your life and you still haven't gotten over the insult?

Techman,

I did not omit Japanese atrocities on the Chinese purposely. I would stop and ask you: If Jews and Armenians survived their respective holocausts, if the Greeks maintained their language and religion after 400 years of occupation during the Ottoman empire, if Kurds maintained their religion and language under Saddam's brutal regime, if, if, if....then why are you so pissy about the future of Anglos? You sound ridiculous.

As far as Quebec's public sector, the report by the Canadian Jewish Congress is excellent. I happen to hold a higher standard for the public sector than the private sector. It is not a couple of hundred of jobs but thousands of jobs that all Quebec taxpayers are subsidizing through our taxes. Why shouldn't we demand better representation for Anglos and ethnics????

GG

 

[Techman]

Ummm, Anglos do have the right to send their kids to English schools. Unless something has changed recently. I'm pissed off about the possibility of them losing their school system as a whole.

I would stop and ask you: If Jews and Armenians survived their respective holocausts, if the Greeks maintained their language and religion after 400 years of occupation during the Ottoman empire, if Kurds maintained their religion and language under Saddam's brutal regime, if, if, if....

Then why do the French need all their laws to protect themselves here to the detriment of the English? In fact Canada has gone as far as recognizing French as one of the two official languages of the country! Has provided funding for the arts here in Quebec, in fact funding such people as Falardeau with his anti-Canada, separatist agenda. And permits a separatist party to sit in the Parliament of Canada. Now who sounds ridiculous?

 

[General Gonad]

Ummm, Anglos do have the right to send their kids to English schools. Unless something has changed recently. I'm pissed off about the possibility of them losing their school system as a whole.

I edited my post. I meant why are you worried about the future of Anglos in Quebec?

Then why do the French need all their laws to protect themselves here to the detriment of the English? In fact Canada has gone as far as recognizing French as one of the two official languages of the country! Has provided funding for the arts here in Quebec, in fact funding such people as Falardeau with his anti-Canada, separatist agenda. And permits a separatist party to sit in the Parliament of Canada. Now who sounds ridiculous?

I agree that there should be NO funding and no tolerance for these racist groups. As t76 noted, things are far from perfect in Quebec, but we need to focus on the real problems and not accuse the state of 'non-violent ethnic cleansing'.

As far as Canada recognizing French as one of the two official languages of the country...why not??? In the future, the more languages one speaks, the better off they are. In the U.S. right now, people who speak Spanish are a hot commodity in some service industries. In Europe, you have countries like Belgium or Switzerland where people speak three to four languages.

Here in Canada, the Western "bloques" are too myopic or ignorant to learn French. I can say the same thing about the French "peppers" in the regional areas who refuse to learn English.

The future of this world is in cities like Montreal. There is NO imminent danger to the anglophone community here. Everyone should learn to speak other languages and if they want to stay in Quebec, they should learn to speak French.

Finally, we need laws to protect French here, not English. The state plays a role in ensuring the public good. To claim that we do not need provincial laws to protect the French language is to be completely ignorant of the reality of Quebec in North America.

GG

 

[Techman]

You know GG, I agree with a lot of what you say. I do have a couple of exceptions though. First is to this quote...

Here in Canada, the Western "bloques" are too myopic or ignorant to learn French. I can say the same thing about the French "peppers" in the regional areas who refuse to learn English.

There are parts of Quebec where there is absolutely no need to learn English at all unless someone wants to watch American movies or television. And there are many areas in Canada where people will never once in their lives meet someone who speaks French. In fact, in Vancouver people would be better served learning Chinese as a second language over French.

Finally, we need laws to protect French here, not English. The state plays a role in ensuring the public good. To claim that we do not need provincial laws to protect the French language is to be completely ignorant of the reality of Quebec in North America.

I just don't understand how you can still believe this after all the examples you posted of languages and cultures that manage to survive in extremely hostile circumstances. As I posted earlier, the only reason laws are required here is to ensure that French remains the dominant language here. The one in control. They are not needed for the survival of the French language as a whole. I'm sorry if I do not believe in the devine right of the French language to reign supreme in the province of Quebec. I have no need of a French aristocracy in Quebec even if we have a new leader of the PQ who owns a chateau.

Techman

PS: I never said that people should not learn French to live here in Quebec, at least at a basic functional level. I also have no problems with French being required on all public signs...just not at a twice as large level. But I believe that no one should be forced to give up their choice to educate their children in the language of their choice, be it French or English. Whether they are French Quebecers, English Quebecers or immigrants.

And thank you for mentioning the fact that you edited your previous post. That was much apperciated.

 

[General Gonad]

PQ bitch bitches against the Gazette

I have no need of a French aristocracy in Quebec even if we have a new leader of the PQ who owns a chateau.

LOL, that bitch Marois was taking shots at the Gazette this past week (it's a rag of a newspaper but I think they reported this story correctly). If she wins her lawsuit, she said the proceeds will go to supporting the sovereignty movement in Quebec. Don't these separatists ever learn: QUEBECERS DO NOT WANT TO SEPARATE FROM CANADA!!!

GG

 

[Techman]

The gazette is a rag and it has a lousy sports section...but I do like the food section on Saturday! I wonder what she will say if she loses the lawsuit? She is such a pompous little poodle isn't she?

 

[General Gonad]

She is such a pompous little poodle isn't she?

Aren't all women leaders?

(t76, I am just kidding here!!!)

GG

 

[Techman]

I'm not asking for any laws to be passed. I'm asking for restrictions on the English school system to be removed. As well as the part of the sign law that states that French has to be twice as large as any other language.
Where did I ever ask for any laws to be passed? We have enough bullshit laws as it is, thank you very much. That definately isn't my argument.

The difference with Quebec is there were also laws that actually systematically prevented Francophones from getting a French education.

And how long ago was this? Do we always have to get revenge for the past? Can't we show that we are above this kind of pettiness? I guess not.

Techman

 

[Techman]

Ok...t76, what the hell is your problem? Do you have to try to find fault with everything I post? When I said they have no need I meant that their livelihood does not depend on their learning english in the area in which they live. I did not mean that they should not have the right to educate their children in whatever language they choose. This is exactly what I posted in an earlier post!!!

But I believe that no one should be forced to give up their choice to educate their children in the language of their choice, be it French or English. Whether they are French Quebecers, English Quebecers or immigrants.

I have said many times in many threads that the language education laws hurt the French community with their restrictions.

Oh, about that Supreme Court story. Well, it upheld Bill 101. Apparantly charter rights don't apply to people who live in this province and who were educated in French, which is why I'd move back to Ontario if I had kids.

Now you are blaming the Canadian Supreme Court for Bill 101? Now you don't agree with Bill 101? Would you please make up your mind??? Pick a point of view and stick with it for a change!!!

It seems you want to argue with me just for the fun of it. I have made my opinions quite clear and have not changed them. It's pointless for me to continue a discussion with someone who changes their opinion to suit the situation. Enough.

Techman

 

[z/m(Ret)]

I really don't care what is acceptable or unacceptable to you in the words I choose.

You obviously don't. Let's call a cat a tiger. Better yet let's call René Levesque a neo-nazi racist pig and Parizeau a mass murderer. Francophones? - let me think - "bottomfeeders".

Silliness doesn't kill. You should be grateful...

Good luck.

 

[Techman]

...
I think Bill 101 is a good thing AND a bad thing and that has been my position throughout this thread. Is that ok with you, or does everything have to be either or? I think it was a necessary thing because I am aware of the history that preceeded it, and the history of other Francophone communities across this country who weren't so lucky as to have provincial laws protect their language. I also think it has had some bad UNINTENDED consequences, therefore, like I also said from the start, the law could stand to be IMPROVED, i.e. AMENDED. I don't see everything in black and white Techman. My life experience has taught me that there are many colours in between IF you choose to open your eyes to them.

t76

I don't think any of the consequences of Bill 101 were 'unintended' as you put it. If that were the case it would take very little for the government to amend the bill.

I do not feel there should be laws to protect any specific language or culture to the detriment of others. Protect all of them from discrimination, yes. But when that protection discriminates against others, then it's gone too far. Languages and cultures should survive on their own merits. Not because they have laws to give them a position of superiority over others. It that is what it takes, then it doesn't deserve to survive in the first place.

Oh by the way Ziggy...I met René Levesque many times after he retired. Even had lunch with him a number of times. He was definately not a neo-nazi racist pig. Maybe that's why his own party turfed him out.

And find me one post where I have insulted Francophones? Separatists, yes...I will insult them any chance I get. But is saying that everyone should live and work together here in peace and build this country up to where it should be insulting? You love to put words in people's mouths.

Techman

 

[General Gonad]

Oh by the way Ziggy...I met René Levesque many times after he retired. Even had lunch with him a number of times. He was definately not a neo-nazi racist pig. Maybe that's why his own party turfed him out.

And find me one post where I have insulted Francophones? Separatists, yes...I will insult them any chance I get. But is saying that everyone should live and work together here in peace and build this country up to where it should be insulting? You love to put words in people's mouths.

René Levesque was the best leader this province ever had. The PQ has a history of slaughtering their leaders. That is why this separatist party will never amount to anything.

GG

 

[eastender]

Very True

René Levesque was the best leader this province ever had.

GG

Very true.

 

[z/m(Ret)]

read carefully

Techman,

Never insinuated that you said anything specifically derogatory against Francophones, simply provided examples of where verbal inflation can lead the discussion to.

Thanks for sharing that you've been rubbing elbows with the political elite. When is your own book coming out?

 

[sapman99]

Good news!

Here is a sunnier spot in Montréal’s language universe. I finally witnessed a reunion of the two solitudes.

I attended a party this past weekend in NDG (Notre-Dame-de-Grâce is a predominantly Anglophone area of Montréal, also home of The Gazette building and The Chablis, otherwise known as “Head Office”). Our hostess was Anglophone, she moved from Toronto 18 years ago. I knew from her voicemail greeting she spoke a smattering of French, but that is all.

When I arrived, the party was already in full swing, and I was immediately surprised to hear a hubbub of conversations in both English and French. As the evening progressed, I saw, much to my pleasure, that most of the Anglophones there were more than willing to switch over to French when speaking with me, even though it’s obvious I’m perfectly bilingual. In fact, they seemed to want to. That is something that had yet to happen to me, ever. Anyway, quite apart from being a very nice evening in many other ways, this ray of hope will stay with me for a long time and give me hope that maybe one day Montréal will be pinpointed as the place where the hatchet was finally buried. Wouldn’t that be nice?