Consent, Harrassment, and Abuse

[Noah Weber]

There has been much in the media, as well as posts here, concerning issues of consent, harassment, and abuse, both in the world in general, as well as this world. These issues have common cores, and we should all be aware of the underlying belief systems that contribute to these scourges. It is unfortunate that too many people tend to see the world as made of a "me", "my gang", "aliens" and "possessions", and will treat any living thing as if it fits into one of these categories. Treating anyone as if they are "the other" or a possession not deserving of empathy leads to abuse.
The people who work in this industry are opening up their lives to help create new possibilities for others. In any meeting between two people, there are three entities in the room: each individual and a budding relationship. The opportunity to create a new world, where one can strive to leave the distortions of complex life behind, exists. One can create a world that emulates the best of our values, where both people are treated with respect and empathy, resulting in something beautiful. One can also bring the worst of the world into that precious space, and replicate the hurts of the world.
We can all be creative people and honour the space opened up by others. What type of world do you want to live in, and what type of worlds do you want to create?

 

[Noah Weber]

Interesting comment Sam, though may I point out that referring to my post as "flowery BS" is dismissive. I'm sure that you do not like being treated in a dismissive manner. Maybe treating people as you would like to be treated is not so simple. Having a deeper understanding of complex issues is not just BS.

 

[Sol Tee Nutz]

But Sam put it into a 3 second read and ended with the same result.

 

[Noah Weber]

We fundamentally agree about the most important principles. Where we disagree is about the need for discussion on the more complex issues of how we see people ( and animals). Many people think that they treat others with respect, as if they were all neighbours, but have trouble with actually recognizing the needs of others. Leaving important issues at simple statements will not lead to change. The comments to my post appear to validate my points. Because you don't identify with or like my manner of writing, you have identified me as the "other" and therefore not worthy of consideration.

 

[cloudsurf]

Noah you appear to be nice and descent enough dude....but way too paranoid.

 

[heliragedeleted]

Agree with cloud surf, it’s making a mountain out of a mole hill.

As sam says, it’s simple: treat others as you would like to be treated. In general for most people it means with kindness, respect and consideration. No need for BS.

 

[hungry101]

I, for one, would like to live in a world without all this PC psychobabble. I read the first post and it is Blah, blah blah blah blahbitty-blah. And then right away you are offended by someone trying to help make sense of it. I see a lot of this stuff coming from the school of Social Sciences at the Universities these days. They are raising our kids to be perpetually offended. Everyone is a victim.

 

[CaptRenault]

There has been much in the media, as well as posts here, concerning issues of consent, harassment, and abuse, both in the world in general, as well as this world...

By "this world," I assume you mean the world of prostitution and other kinds of sex work.

I'm not aware of any case of an accusation against the client of a sex worker that is part of the #MeToo moral panic.

Obviously, sex workers do sometimes face problems of harassment, abuse and pressure to perform acts that they don't want to. They are often in a more difficult position in dealing with such problems because feminists (including many women at the forefront of the #MeToo movement) and their allies on the religious right have made it extremely difficult for sex workers to get help from the police by passing laws that make it almost impossible for a sex worker to have a normal working life.

Furthermore because feminists and religious conservatives enforce a stigma against sex workers, a sex worker who suffers problems with clients can't go to the media and expect to get the same sympathetic treatment that the media automatically gives to any woman making a #MeToo claim. Sex workers are simply NOT WELCOME to take part in the #MeToo movement.

Sex workers definitely deserve our sympathy, understanding and support but the #MeToo movement doesn't want anything to do with them.

 

[Sol Tee Nutz]

Furthermore because feminists and religious conservatives enforce a stigma against sex workers

Of course religious Liberals and alt left welcome escorts with open arms. Only those nasty religious Conservatives and feminists ( who are mostly Liberal ) are against escorts.

 

[hungry101]

Sex workers definitely deserve our sympathy, understanding and support but the #MeToo movement doesn't want anything to do with them.

I am surprised about this. I have read plenty of left-wing psycho-babble from the feminists. To the feminist, there isn't a single sex worker out there that is doing this because they choose to. They are all being abused and exploited by hetrosexual males that are making the women do this against their will. So in my opinion SPs are all fodder for the #Metoo movement.

 

[talkinghead]

Huh. Noah Weber posts a thoughtful comment that, as far as I can tell, seemed moderate and uncontroversial ... and he gets ripped for ... I'm not sure what, exactly.

Surely MERB can be a place for different points of views and values, and in this case for a cerebral style that moves into the explorations of ideas.

Why the hostility? I don't get it. Is it really because he writes in complete sentences that avoid over-simplifying the complex world of sexuality? Let's not make MERB a place where anyone with a different perspective or, wow, a different form of expression is vilified and dismissed. Let's make this forum a place where the fun and wildness can also make room every so often for more nuanced discussions. So many of the issues that are central to the hobby are complicated and difficult; every so often we should not only acknowledge that truth but also appreciate it and enjoy opening it all up to intelligent reflections.

 

[Noah Weber]

Unfortunately, many of the responses to this post have validated my point that as soon as someone is seen as "the other" they are not treated with empathy. Talkinghead does understand the importance of empathy and nuance. I'd also like to point out that many, if not most, of the women who contribute to this board would see themselves as feminists.

 

[hungry101]

To be fair, I find Noah's writing style pretentious. He was just trying to impress us with his prose. I was going to suggest a technical writing class but Noah needs to have something to say first. There is no point to this waxy BS. Sounds like another lifelong college student devoid of any marketable skills who is trying to impress a hooker board.

 

[heliragedeleted]

To be fair, I find Noah's writing style pretentious. He was just trying to impress us with his prose. I was going to suggest a technical writing class but Noah needs to have something to say first. There is no point to this waxy BS. Sounds like another lifelong college student devoid of any marketable skills who is trying to impress a hooker board.

Agreed it was kinda obvious from the start. It was so narcissistic from the get go, I thought well it was answered and let it go. But Noah tried to extend the heaviness and BS attitude that I feel Noah needs to be put it his place.
Noah, you are not superior to anybody, you do not have a superior comprehension of the subject and stop being feckless.

 

[jalimon]

For once I am happy to be be French as I don't understand fuck all of what is said in this thread.

Did no knew pot was already available?

Cheers,

 

[talkinghead]

My goodness, people. The OP needs to be "put in his place" ... because of his writing style? And the problem with his style is not that he is crude or abusive or reckless ... but that he uses a form of expression that seems ... difficult? What does it say about this forum if posters are attacked for the way they express themselves?

The responses in this thread seem below the basic standards of MERB. If you don't like what someone says, respond respectfully; if you don't understand what someone says, ask for clarification; if you find yourself angered or upset by the style of a post, then move on to another thread (or maybe take a break and go for a walk).

 

[Noah Weber]

Let me make my point as simply as possible. People tend to be very quick to judge, and to see anyone as "the other" if they don't completely identify with them or agree with them. When a person is seen as "the other", empathy for that person is often lost. This is an important issue affecting sex workers, as often without recognizing it, people, both clients and general public, will see them as not deserving of full respect or empathy. Most of the responses to this post have proved my point.

 

[jalimon]

Now I get it haha thanks Noah!

Cheers,

 

[hungry101]

The #metoo movement might not easily accept sex workers, but it sure helps their business.

If you are a young man earning at least a reasonable living, and a date consists of listening to psychobabble, carefully asking for specific permission to remove each item of clothing and do each sex act, and evaluate the situation with conversation on a constant basis to ensure that she is enjoying the event (as Aziz apparently did not do), would you not choose to spend an hour or so with an escort who is going to exit the bathroom naked and fuck your brains out whether or not you say a word to her?

In fairness to affirmative consent intellectuals, it is hard to see compatibility between these extreme examples. Just how would the rules a lot of #metoo proponents work during an hour of compensated sex?

This is hilarious. Once again the perfect post. Book an escort and theoretically, you can avoid all the consent BS, I agree. But maybe it is another movement I am talking about. What about the abolitionist movement which views all SPs as victims? SPs could never willingly give their consent to sex work.

I saw what programs hobbyists were forced to go through if caught in one of their BackPage stings in Atlanta. SPs were portrayed as either 1. poverty stricken unwed mothers buying formula and diapers or 2. drug addicts using the money to manage their addictions. They were forced into this business by a pimp or they were trafficked and/or underage. They even said that the fee that we hobbyists pay is a way for us to compensate/manage our feelings of guilt. The abolitionists believe that no woman would willingly chose to do sex work. This is just more exploitation by heterosexual males that are either living off the avails or defiling the sex worker by paying her for sex - which she does reluctantly.

So you see Patron, even though the escort walked out of the bathroom naked, she doesn't want to be there and that would be #MeToo.

 

[hungry101]

Patron - a woman I was fairly close to left me a voicemail to understand if I would be willing to employee her daughter (the college cheerleader) during her break from college just to show here the ropes. I have seen pictures of this girl and I know about all her boyfriends and her love life etc. I never answered the mother's phone calls and I avoided this like the plague. I did not want to bring a potential #MeToo situation into my building. I have been scared straight.

Honestly, being a hot, fuckable young lady is a negative for me during an interview these days. I had two young girls working for me years ago and they were both top notch but it was problematic. I remember that middle management was always interested in their opinion and how they were doing. I noticed that they wanted to be their friends and a hero to these girls. One day, one of the girls made the offhand comment that she was so tired that day because I had asked her to come in early. I was called into someones office over this. The girl apologized profusely to me later and said she was not complaining but just talking. She and I both knew that the creep just wanted to fuck her. She had said "maybe if he was the last person on earth" so there was a chance. After this experience, I was very careful about having too many good looking and fuckable direct reports.