Death in Laval

[EagerBeaver]

Pathetic

It occurred to me as I was driving home from work: 3 people are dead as a result of a dispute over a $40 cab fare. It's very sad and senseless and pathetic when you think about it. Everyone should think about what happened in Laval that night and how the events of that night resulted in 3 lives being snuffed out over a $40 cab fare. It is incredibly pathetic.

 

[Lawless]

Yup...very sad! But still hard to believe the whole thing for 40$!!!!!
The driver....yes he was...as far as I remember!

 

[CaptRenault]

All we know about the taxi driver is that he was a "foreign national." Many, perhaps most, of the cab drivers in Montreal are immigrants so that doesn't tell us much about him.

 

[joelcairo]

Quebec is probably the place in North America where minorities get the best treatment so, leave me alone with any tought of "should be expected". NOTHING is to be expected by English minorities in Quebec. In Quebec, we protect French but we do respect English. English-speaking peoples get services in English because WE AGREE to give them services in English. Somebody speaking only English will survive and find work easy in Montreal but, somebody who only speak french will have quite a rough time in Toronto.

What a load of BS! First, moiaussiquatre, Quebec is still a province in Canada - sorry, but it hasn't separated yet. Canada has two official languages. Some might say that this is because the English "agreed" (to use your silly term) to allow this despite having the money, muscle and power for hundreds of years.

Second, English may be a minority in Quebec but it's a damn BIG minority and might be bigger if it hadn't been for the huge Anglo exodus over the past 30 years. Why the exodus? Well maybe because a lot of the têtes carrés didn't share your opinion that the French "respect English". Maybe also because immigrants are forced to attend French schools and maybe also because immigration preference is given to French speakers.

Third, if there is such great respect for English, why is it that signs containing English must have the English writing half the size of the French? It's fine to insist that French must appear on all signs. No problem, protect the French language, that's totally understandable. But the half-size requirement for English is nothing but venomous, racist hatred masquerading as legal protection. And let's not even get started on some of the ridiculous abuses perpetrated by the Office de la langue francaise.

Fourth, to say that someone who speaks only English can "find work easy in Montreal" is a joke. And on a similar theme here's a little homework assignment for you moiaussiquatre: look up the percentage of Anglos in the civil service in Quebec. You might discover that it isn't very high.

Of course the irony of all this is that just about all the Anglos who chose to remain in Quebec love the province (or else why would they have stayed to subject themselves to some of the racist legislation that has been passed) and are bilingual. They pay the same economic penalties as their Francophone compatriots (yes, Montreal was once the largest and richest city in Canada - until the zealots took over and a lot of the money and big businesses left for Toronto) but they are not ghettoized, as unilingual Francophones are, trapped in a tiny French culture inside the huge English mass of North America.

Pass all the laws you want moiaussiquatre but please don't delude yourself into thinking that you're being benevolent to the English minority...OR to the French majority.

 

[metoo4]

Eastender, I'm refraining here from getting nasty... In Germany, signs are in German, in Italy, in Italian, in USA, in English so, in Quebec, it's in French. You don't like it? Too bad! Ontario and USA are within 80km from Montreal and there, it's as English as you want it to be so, don't restrain yourself and move.

Her mom said the guy was raised in a way he wouldn't have stolen. She's either stupid or totally blinded by motherly love: lots of criminals come from good families and were suposedly raised in a good way. Drunk peoples don't always act as they were raised. These guys wanted a trill, they got more than they bargained for. No lawsuit possible here, the laws are what they are here and they're good that way on this subject.

 

[Lawless]

Please.....this is not the place to go over the last 40 years of language debate in the Province of Quebec!!!!
Soon...you will see a Mod getting upset!......and close this thread!!

 

[eastender]

How the French Language Law Hurts the French

Second, English may be a minority in Quebec but it's a damn BIG minority and might be bigger if it hadn't been for the huge Anglo exodus over the past 30 years. Why the exodus? Well maybe because a lot of the têtes carrés didn't share your opinion that the French "respect English". Maybe also because immigrants are forced to attend French schools and maybe also because immigration preference is given to French speakers.

One of the biggest canards is that immigrants and other non Francophones going to French public or private schools helps protect the French language and
benefits the French speaking Quebecers.

This is simply false. Observe.

Prior to the various language laws and education reforms the French Catholic schools public and private were almost 100% populated by "les pure laine".
So all the school leaders, intellectuals etc were from this select group and from an early age they developed the necessary academic,political,business and leadership skills to position themselves as the Quebec leaders upon graduation.

"Les autres" went to the English public and private schools.Effectively the allophone students were competing with the English students academically, politically,economically and developing leadership skills to position themselves
as leaders of tomorrow.

Soon after the various linguistic laws were enacted the world - the rest of this planet outside Quebec experienced the demise of Communism in Asia and Europe as well as movement of peoples from the African and South American
continents. A significant number of these immigrants came to Quebec and entered the French public and private school systems.They were happy to do so - after all it was much better than the system in the country they left.

These students are now graduating from high school,CEGEP and university with educations that were denied "les pure laine" and are leaving Quebec for the rest of the world.Simply for every doctor,scientist,etc of immigrant parents that the French Quebec education system formed AND who has left or will leave the province of Quebec, an opportunity was denied a "pure laine"

Who denied the "les pure laines" these opportunities? Certainly wasn't the English, wasn't the immigrants.They did it themselves.

 

[eastender]

Eastender, I'm refraining here from getting nasty... In Germany, signs are in German, in Italy, in Italian, in USA, in English so, in Quebec, it's in French. You don't like it? Too bad! Ontario and USA are within 80km from Montreal and there, it's as English as you want it to be so, don't restrain yourself and move.

metoo4
Actually,where needed most countries have multilingual signs.In the USA where the population is significantly Hispanic signs are also in Spanish.

In the 1970's traveling along the 87 between Montreal and New York City
around the major interstates you would have signs in French as a courtesy so that people would not make mistakes and cause accidents.In the northern tourist areas or shopping areas such as Old Orchard Beach, Plattsburgh, Burlington,etc you would see signs "Ici nous parlons francais", etc.

When the signs in Quebec became unilingual the Americans said fair is fair
and these considerations disappeared.

Come to think of it if English is so bothersome I will gladly provide you with the addresses of worthwhile charities who will put your bilingual Canadian dollars to ggod use.

 

[Lawless]

The above postings are exactly why this Board is getting so .....!!!

 

[voyageur11]

metoo4
Actually,where needed most countries have multilingual signs.In the USA where the population is significantly Hispanic signs are also in Spanish.

In the 1970's traveling along the 87 between Montreal and New York City
around the major interstates you would have signs in French as a courtesy so that people would not make mistakes and cause accidents.In the northern tourist areas or shopping areas such as Old Orchard Beach, Plattsburgh, Burlington,etc you would see signs "Ici nous parlons francais", etc.

When the signs in Quebec became unilingual the Americans said fair is fair
and these considerations disappeared.

Come to think of it if English is so bothersome I will gladly provide you with the addresses of worthwhile charities who will put your bilingual Canadian dollars to ggod use.

B.S Olnly one sign with the number of km to montreal on the truway I have some of my staff turn back at the border because their english was not good enough and the sign ici nous parlons francais is to attract $ only and they are not state sign but commercial

 

[Gorsky]

Joelcairo, if you don't like the laws and everything in Quebec why are you stilll living in it or going to Quebec for vacations/work/others?

I can tell you that my familly came from England. They were deported simply because they were catholic. In that time, England deported a lot of catholics. Was that fair? I don't mind because past is past. In only 3 generations, we went from english speaking to french speaking. My parents were wanting to send me to english school but weren't allowed. Is it a big pain in the ass? No... I ended up speaking english even if I went to french school. Ok my english isn't perfect but hey it is my second language. I even speak a third language Spanish.

I can tell you that in Ontario or other place in Canada you won't see as much french and english on placards/signs/whatever. You can get served in english without any problems. I don't see myself getting served in french anywhere else in Canada (ok for sure there is a few exceptions on both sides). I can even get served in Spanish in Mtl without that much pain...

So if Canada has 2 languages, why don't the rest of Canada speaks the second language? Shyness?? (<-Maybe for some)

You say that english speaking people are badly threated in Quebec which is not true. I have all lot of friends which are speaking only english and they never told me anything about that. They even told me the contrary that we (as Quebec) were open to at least learn both languages (at least the basics of both).

The exodus isn't that true. I agree there was a few english speaking people that left but it is not because of the language but it is because the Quebec was going for the separation.

As far as I know of the law, the signs must have French characters bigger than the other language (I said other language because it is not only english but whatever language) not twice as big as you are saying...

Now about the civil services... The proportion in my opinion is respected. I don't know exactly the % of english speaking people in the population and in the services but I say it is fairly distributed. Maybe I am dreaming... But, I can tell you that the french speaking have even less proportion in the civil services somewhere else in Canada. So, I don't see you point. For sure, it is much more easier to get a job if you are speaking english than if you speak only french. To tell you the truth as soon there is one english speaking person in a meeting everything is made in english. Go tell me somewhere else in Canada that if there is one speaking frech the meeting will be in french...

As for the part about the english that are still here, this is BS like you said. I know plenty non-bilingual english speaking persons and they are not badly treated but instead like to be here since it is a mix of the american/canadian and european.

For Montreal, it was the greatest city in Canada when the seaway wasn't open. Starting from that time, Montreal lost to Toronto. Taht started a bit before the seaway because Toronto is more central than Montreal and most of the big compagnies prefer to be somewhere near the center of the country. The instability (independance talks) didn't help Montreal. Plus, the banks prefered Toronto because of it central position. Racism has nothing to do in the fall of Mtl...

Eastender, you need to review your history. In the 50's and before (since England took New France), the english speaking persons were the elite of the society. They were having the big positions in companies while the french speaking were doing the low jobs. That started to change in the revolution tranquille (~50's)...

As for the schools, nobody is taking the place of sombody else. Specially, there is no "pure laine" and "les autres". People compete when there is contingency but it is fair competition. The contingency most of the times is imposed by the professional order. As for students from outside of Canada that are comming here to study, they either come here in an exchange program or as "alien" students but in this way they pay the real cost of the school which Canadian students pay only a part of it but all of us pay in our taxes. So again, it is fair and square. Nobody is stealing the education/place like you are saying...

 

[Lawless]

Ever tried it in TO?????
Any language but French!

 

[voyageur11]

Doc is right about northern ontario (except may be for sault ste marie) Where french is not really welcome

 

[Gorsky]

Wrong. Ontario is billingual and most signs across the province are such.

Strangely, I haven't seen any of those signs except near the border with Quebec when I was doing my trips from Mtl to TO.

As for Ottawa, it is bilingual since it is next to Quebec and because a lot of the people come from Gatineau/Hull (to work and to spend money) and because they don't have choice due to the status of the capital.

Northern Ontario is mostly french because the english didn't want to go that far so people from lower Canada decided to go west from a northern position while the upper Canada people decided to continue west but from their southern peninsula.

The reason why it (Northern Ontario) is bilingual is because of the crown that decided to abolish french in what will become Canada. They had limited succes (since people started to talk english but kept french too) in Northern Ontario because the population was small and had a lot of territory to cover while in Quebec (lower canada) there was too many people and the culture was too strong to be assimilated by the english culture.

 

[voyageur11]

Every exit on the 401 are in french and english all the way to Windsor Even the construction warning are in both language. Looks like you never been there

 

[joelcairo]

Gorsky, it's very possible that you made 1 or 2 valid points in your posts. I read your posts several times and could not find a single valid point but, hey, maybe there was one hidden among the errors, falsehoods and confusion. Since I don't plan on reading your posts again to check on that, I'll be a sport and give you the benefit of the doubt.

 

[eastender]

English Hurting the English

Joelcairo, if you don't like the laws and everything in Quebec why are you stilll living in it or going to Quebec for vacations/work/others?]

Eastender, you need to review your history. In the 50's and before (since England took New France), the english speaking persons were the elite of the society. They were having the big positions in companies while the french speaking were doing the low jobs. That started to change in the revolution tranquille (~50's)...

Well into the 1950's the policies of the English school boards - catholic and protestant hurt the lower class(poor) English people. High schools were rare in the heavily populated poor English districts and concentrated in the upper class districts making an education and access to better paying jobs more difficult.Boundaries were manipulated to concentrate certain ethnics within certain schools and allowances were made so that like would be with like.

The basic point is that in a definable group - linguistic,ethnic, religious etc will do more harm to its own than to others. The French harm the French,the English harm the English and so forth.People trust their own not others.So they are more vulnerable / gullible to their own.

The if you don't like leave position is the one favoured by those who cannot look themselves in the mirror.

 

[metoo4]

It's 100% true Ottawa is bilingual! By all the French-speaking peoples who also speak English. That's the majority of bilinguism in Ottawa. And I know what I'm talking about: I live in Gatineau and worked in Ottawa since over 20 years.
Just yesterday, in a restaurant IN QUEBEC, one of the ladies tending tables, born and raised in Quebec, could not understand or align 2 words in French. She was about 16-18 yo. She could repeat French words and understood words in a concept, like "de l'eau" "merci" and "s'il vous plait" but that was it. How is this possible? How is this even acceptable? At 18 yo, not even feeling the need to understand or speak basic French while living surrounded by French peoples? Try the equivalent in Toronto, not speaking any English, and try to get a job! And she have a job, doing business directly with the clientele, even if she can't speak the language! The clientele must adapt to her because she don't see a need to adapt to them!

Eastender, tell me, who's abusing who? Really? No, don't answer, I don't really care...

 

[eastender]

It's 100% true Ottawa is bilingual! By all the French-speaking peoples who also speak English. That's the majority of bilinguism in Ottawa. And I know what I'm talking about: I live in Gatineau and worked in Ottawa since over 20 years.
Just yesterday, in a restaurant IN QUEBEC, one of the ladies tending tables, born and raised in Quebec, could not understand or align 2 words in French. She was about 16-18 yo. She could repeat French words and understood words in a concept, like "de l'eau" "merci" and "s'il vous plait" but that was it. How is this possible? How is this even acceptable? At 18 yo, not even feeling the need to understand or speak basic French while living surrounded by French peoples? Try the equivalent in Toronto, not speaking any English, and try to get a job! And she have a job, doing business directly with the clientele, even if she can't speak the language! The clientele must adapt to her because she don't see a need to adapt to them!

Eastender, tell me, who's abusing who? Really? No, don't answer, I don't really care...

The English educational system and the English parents denied the young girl an appropriate complete education and created a dysfunctional individual. English hurting the English.

Now let's look at Gatineau and bilingualism. Since housing is significantly cheaper in Gatineau or the other side of the river many western Canadians choose to live in Quebec. Many of them are sufficiently bilingual to coach minor/youth sports such as hockey, baseball,football,etc. participate in all social and community activities and enjoy life. They learned French out west.

 

[metoo4]

My dad was a teacher and always said most parents never accepts their kids do "bad stuff" since they didn't raise them that way... Even when rubbing the parent's noses into their kid's mischiefs often doesn't help kick this negation away, the parents prefering to find a scapegoat, any scapegoat, rather than accepting their kids did something wrong.

As far as the police not communicating to the parent that the report was released, so what? If it's so important, you'd expect the parents would have found a way to stay on top of the issue? Would't they have asked questions on how to get the report, how to stay informed?

The kids ran away from the cab, towards a zone who was dark, why? If you feel threatened, would you run towards a dark zone? I guess not! You'd run towards a building where peoples can see you. They were at destination and likely, there was a building door (the after hours club) who just needed to be opened in order to get some kind of protection. But if you want to hide, a building where you'll get trapped and where peoples can stop you isn't a good alternative, a dark alley is a better option. There was a fence, they climbed it figuring the cab driver would't follow, but didn't expect the ground to be that far on the other side of that fence!

There might not be any proofs they were trying to dodge the fare but all signs point in that direction and nothing point anywhere else to counterbalance this.