Do you really believe in feminism?
- Thread starter Orange_Julep
- Start date
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From the Canadian perspective only, since we are in Canada and talking on a "Canadian" discussion board ==>
BOTTOM LINE: The new prostitution laws in Canada (based on the nordic model, which is developed by highly educated and FEMINIST females from the NORDIC countries) makes it LEGAL to advertise for sexual services and ILLEGAL to buy them. Since Canada is NOT Europe where women are dozens of times more social and sexual and make first moves, tell me THIS ==> WHO is taking advantage of WHo here?. Quite obvious !!. Case Closed !!
From the Canadian perspective only, since we are in Canada and talking on a "Canadian" discussion board ==>
BOTTOM LINE: The new prostitution laws in Canada (based on the nordic model, which is developed by highly educated and FEMINIST females from the NORDIC countries) makes it LEGAL to advertise for sexual services and ILLEGAL to buy them. Since Canada is NOT Europe where women are dozens of times more social and sexual and make first moves, tell me THIS ==> WHO is taking advantage of WHo here?. Quite obvious !!. Case Closed !!
Reply to Patron's post above==>
I agree 99.99% Patron.
Sexual openness is quite the norm not the exception in most of European cities compared to Noth America. We have discussed this quite a bit on this forum in various threads. It does depend on the social arena (bars, pubs, beaches etc) that one is in though in a European city. European hangouts like in Ibiza and the famous "LOVE PARADE" in Berlin etc. Depends on the age group of the crowd as well. Prostitution is more readily acceptable and available in Europe because of the liberal attitude of the women and it is the easiest way for men to get laid rather than spend an evening scouring the various pick-up spots (easy if you are in the 18-45 age group; difficult if 55+). Europeans do enjoy life more, take more holidays etc and spend time to socialize much more than North Americans in general.
The NORDIC model of "prostitution" laws has been applied to Canada which is a huge mistake bacause the two cultures are very far apart in sexual openness in general (exception/not the rule statement above). However, the Nordic countries and FRANCE have decided that since women are so sexual/open in those countries there is NO need for liberal prostitution laws (my opinion). The motive behind these Nordic laws is quite strange for an intellectual in Europe and here in Canada. The only thing that comes to mind is to protect women who are not there of their own free will. It remains to be seen how these laws might change in the next few years.
Why women escort would be another thread..I think..cuz its too complicated. Every girl has a different pleasure/money/background in North America.
I agree 99.99% Patron.
Sexual openness is quite the norm not the exception in most of European cities compared to Noth America. We have discussed this quite a bit on this forum in various threads. It does depend on the social arena (bars, pubs, beaches etc) that one is in though in a European city. European hangouts like in Ibiza and the famous "LOVE PARADE" in Berlin etc. Depends on the age group of the crowd as well. Prostitution is more readily acceptable and available in Europe because of the liberal attitude of the women and it is the easiest way for men to get laid rather than spend an evening scouring the various pick-up spots (easy if you are in the 18-45 age group; difficult if 55+). Europeans do enjoy life more, take more holidays etc and spend time to socialize much more than North Americans in general.
The NORDIC model of "prostitution" laws has been applied to Canada which is a huge mistake bacause the two cultures are very far apart in sexual openness in general (exception/not the rule statement above). However, the Nordic countries and FRANCE have decided that since women are so sexual/open in those countries there is NO need for liberal prostitution laws (my opinion). The motive behind these Nordic laws is quite strange for an intellectual in Europe and here in Canada. The only thing that comes to mind is to protect women who are not there of their own free will. It remains to be seen how these laws might change in the next few years.
Why women escort would be another thread..I think..cuz its too complicated. Every girl has a different pleasure/money/background in North America.
1) Regarding the so-called grading system, it was around years before Yelp (and merb for that matter). It irks a lot of people, including certain well regarded top reviewers, and it doesn't even seem to be relevant much anymore. Also, Yelp reviews are not just for food, there for the entire experience, including attitude and service. Should there not be way to call out when these things are superior? I'm certain a large majority of merb is open to new improved ideas that are fair to the women who take the profession seriously enough to put in the work and effort involved to become A-listers.
2) Instead of being irked, have you considered all the valid reasons why clients might use agencies over indy's? and considering some of the busiest agencies are run by women, is this really a gender issue? If you want honest feedback on the issue I suggest starting a new thread. For starters, many of us are not on daytime schedules, often cannot prebook with reliability, and prefer to be able to actually talk to a human within a reasonable lapse of time. On many indy web sites I see 24hr notice preferred, text only, etc.. and I totally respect these desires by calling an agency instead. Until these and similar issues are addressed, comparing agencies and indy's is like comparing apples and oranges for many of us clients. Oops, sorry about the food reference.
regards.. pope
OJ,
1 Maybe you did not throw around the 78%, but it was the main result of the first (American) reference you provided.
2 The comparisons provided in the other 2 references (Québec and Ontario) are indeed largely based on full time employment, and there is nothing wrong about that because it’s the first obvious level of refinement.
3 There is a more direct way to visualise the difference for the faculty database for which you provide a link. They give you the tools to generate a scatterplot. It draws a regression line that confirms that there is a difference.
4 I understand your frustration when you ear the sentence wage gap is a myth, because numbers seem so obvious in so many ways we look at them. So we tend to conclude at first hand that there is obviously gender discrimination. But we have to take into account that discrimination is illegal, so we try to find the explanatory factors (and you do) It’s a very complicated. The bulletproof method would be a longitudinal study taking into account at least 10 to 12 presumably significant independent variables. It’s impossible because groups would be too small. The best study I have read so far on the wage gap is getting old (2009 with stats up to 2008), by the US department of labour, recognizes that. http://www.consad.com/content/reports/Gender Wage Gap Final Report.pdf However, their model leaves only between 4,8% and 7,1% of the gap unaccounted for. It leaves a lot of discussions open: is there hidden discrimination in the work place? Are women’s aims and choices dictated by the “patriarchy? The wage gap myth is not denying that there is a wag gap, it’s denying that it’s largely based on discrimination.
5 You are dead wrong in supposing that discussing the evidence is dictated by the will to undermine women. Quite frankly, it is taking a victim’s stance. I don’t see women as victims. Maybe it’s because I have yet to meet women in my environment complaining of wage discrimination or, as a matter of fact, any form of discrimination other than the insignificant usual idiots we all come across once in a while. I also find it odd that you explain the feminazy attitude by men’s annoying attitudes. Feminists, like any other groups, have all the freedom to spread their ideas in the open market place of ideas. They sometimes express radically different ideas from one another. That’s great. You just can’t cry misogyny when your ideas are contested. You can do better then that.
6 Legal rights are not a factor ? Come on! Some feminist like Christina Hoff are saying American feminists would be more useful in supporting women in third world countries if they want to produce significant results, you know, like improving legal rights and systematic social discrimination.
7 I understand the discrepancy you sense between defending decrim and some attitudes shown towards women by some members of MERB. First of all, very very few member take part in the decrim discussions. I have met some. They are among the most respectful towards women people I’ve met. I have no doubt others I have not met, like Reverdy, Patron, CapRenault are also very respectful of women in general. All of them know very well the industry, it’s bad sides and it’s good sides. And I’m sure they are all convinced empowerment of women in the industry is the best possible solution for ALL aspects of the trade, market freedom taking care of the rest. Policies have little impact on the access except for countries with zealot police control, France and Sweden and USA being the worst cases (but even there…). Access is not an issue. Security is, both for providers and buyers.
8 I also understand your feelings about objectification. But this is sex work. There is objectification by definition. Men, and women’s fantasies are in part objectifying. Sex is by definition objectifying. My impression (but I may be wrong), is that sp’s do not hate being rated, including physically, per se as much as they hate to be compared.
9 I don’t know much about agencies earning, a bit more about parlours earnings. The parlours market is pretty big with almost perfect competition: large number of providers, very easy to get in and out, free flow of resources: the girls can opt in and out and go offer their services to other parlours, all willing to contract at any time. There is just no way to make a lot of money is such a market unless you are very organized, savvy and work hard. Also, the cuts there are generally fixed, very close from one parlour to the other, and reasonable: they compare to what the legit ‘hospitality’ industry ask for siestas. I often compare parlours to motels. Few do very well, most do just OK and some lose money. The agencies market may be different, but I imagine that the only way to stay in business with large cuts is to provide more customers then the others. Otherwise, girl would go elsewhere.
Anyway, it’s a pleasure exchanging with you. SOrry for the terrible english I impose on you. Your french is much better.
1 Maybe you did not throw around the 78%, but it was the main result of the first (American) reference you provided.
2 The comparisons provided in the other 2 references (Québec and Ontario) are indeed largely based on full time employment, and there is nothing wrong about that because it’s the first obvious level of refinement.
3 There is a more direct way to visualise the difference for the faculty database for which you provide a link. They give you the tools to generate a scatterplot. It draws a regression line that confirms that there is a difference.
4 I understand your frustration when you ear the sentence wage gap is a myth, because numbers seem so obvious in so many ways we look at them. So we tend to conclude at first hand that there is obviously gender discrimination. But we have to take into account that discrimination is illegal, so we try to find the explanatory factors (and you do) It’s a very complicated. The bulletproof method would be a longitudinal study taking into account at least 10 to 12 presumably significant independent variables. It’s impossible because groups would be too small. The best study I have read so far on the wage gap is getting old (2009 with stats up to 2008), by the US department of labour, recognizes that. http://www.consad.com/content/reports/Gender Wage Gap Final Report.pdf However, their model leaves only between 4,8% and 7,1% of the gap unaccounted for. It leaves a lot of discussions open: is there hidden discrimination in the work place? Are women’s aims and choices dictated by the “patriarchy? The wage gap myth is not denying that there is a wag gap, it’s denying that it’s largely based on discrimination.
5 You are dead wrong in supposing that discussing the evidence is dictated by the will to undermine women. Quite frankly, it is taking a victim’s stance. I don’t see women as victims. Maybe it’s because I have yet to meet women in my environment complaining of wage discrimination or, as a matter of fact, any form of discrimination other than the insignificant usual idiots we all come across once in a while. I also find it odd that you explain the feminazy attitude by men’s annoying attitudes. Feminists, like any other groups, have all the freedom to spread their ideas in the open market place of ideas. They sometimes express radically different ideas from one another. That’s great. You just can’t cry misogyny when your ideas are contested. You can do better then that.
6 Legal rights are not a factor ? Come on! Some feminist like Christina Hoff are saying American feminists would be more useful in supporting women in third world countries if they want to produce significant results, you know, like improving legal rights and systematic social discrimination.
7 I understand the discrepancy you sense between defending decrim and some attitudes shown towards women by some members of MERB. First of all, very very few member take part in the decrim discussions. I have met some. They are among the most respectful towards women people I’ve met. I have no doubt others I have not met, like Reverdy, Patron, CapRenault are also very respectful of women in general. All of them know very well the industry, it’s bad sides and it’s good sides. And I’m sure they are all convinced empowerment of women in the industry is the best possible solution for ALL aspects of the trade, market freedom taking care of the rest. Policies have little impact on the access except for countries with zealot police control, France and Sweden and USA being the worst cases (but even there…). Access is not an issue. Security is, both for providers and buyers.
8 I also understand your feelings about objectification. But this is sex work. There is objectification by definition. Men, and women’s fantasies are in part objectifying. Sex is by definition objectifying. My impression (but I may be wrong), is that sp’s do not hate being rated, including physically, per se as much as they hate to be compared.
9 I don’t know much about agencies earning, a bit more about parlours earnings. The parlours market is pretty big with almost perfect competition: large number of providers, very easy to get in and out, free flow of resources: the girls can opt in and out and go offer their services to other parlours, all willing to contract at any time. There is just no way to make a lot of money is such a market unless you are very organized, savvy and work hard. Also, the cuts there are generally fixed, very close from one parlour to the other, and reasonable: they compare to what the legit ‘hospitality’ industry ask for siestas. I often compare parlours to motels. Few do very well, most do just OK and some lose money. The agencies market may be different, but I imagine that the only way to stay in business with large cuts is to provide more customers then the others. Otherwise, girl would go elsewhere.
Anyway, it’s a pleasure exchanging with you. SOrry for the terrible english I impose on you. Your french is much better.
MERB is there for reviews and we are on MERB. So why is Orange_Julep irked about the rating and reviews?.
Maybe she is not getting quality clients as an independent or not making enough money in Montreal.
If she was in Germany, for example, she would be tightly controlled and taxed by the government under their "legal prostitution" laws. Most escorts in Montreal make a lot more than girls in Europe (tax-free) and should be thankful to all the guys who give them the couple a hundred an hour, in Montreal. If the women in Montreal cannot advertise themselves properly, it is nobody's fault. THAT is how the system is setup in Montreal/Canada. They will not be getting any help from the government, that's for sure.
Secondly, guys rate and review girls because we do NOT want to be duped by fake advertising and everybody knows how many FAKE ads there are on various Escort websites. Hard ro find anything good and good Independent SP rates are double and triple what guys in Montreal are willing to pay. But I have heard certain big shots from Canada and USA regularly visit Montreal and pay in the thousands for an hour or two with their fave independents and that goes to their heads.
Maybe she is not getting quality clients as an independent or not making enough money in Montreal.
If she was in Germany, for example, she would be tightly controlled and taxed by the government under their "legal prostitution" laws. Most escorts in Montreal make a lot more than girls in Europe (tax-free) and should be thankful to all the guys who give them the couple a hundred an hour, in Montreal. If the women in Montreal cannot advertise themselves properly, it is nobody's fault. THAT is how the system is setup in Montreal/Canada. They will not be getting any help from the government, that's for sure.
Secondly, guys rate and review girls because we do NOT want to be duped by fake advertising and everybody knows how many FAKE ads there are on various Escort websites. Hard ro find anything good and good Independent SP rates are double and triple what guys in Montreal are willing to pay. But I have heard certain big shots from Canada and USA regularly visit Montreal and pay in the thousands for an hour or two with their fave independents and that goes to their heads.
L
Lily-Rose
Moi, j'ai tellement hâte qu'on ne parle plus de féminisme. Ça voudra peut-être dire alors qu'on est rendu plus loin ;-)
Hi Gugu,
I didn't provide the Excel sheet to propose an average (and I know you're not saying I did). I only provided it because it allows a person (who thinks wage gaps don't exist) to compare male-to-female earnings in specific occupations and in a specific situation: full-time status over one year. Say, "legislator" where there's a 10% wage gap. This isn't 30% - it's not a huge number, but it's still there and it shouldn't be there and I don't understand why it's there in this specific occupation considering the public is paying for this salary (there is no wage gap in that occupation on this side of the border). Financial managers: why is there a 36% gap? Aerospace engineer: 11%. Civil engineer: 12%. Lawyer: 21%. Physicians and surgeons: 31%. CEO: 34%. This last wage gap is just mind boggling to me. Don't tell me a female CEO is like any other female worker and isn't just as organizational efficiency and effectiveness minded as any male counterpart. She got voted into the job - because she was the best candidate, according to her mainly male BoD peers, for the job. Women who place family before being cutthroat decision-makers simply do not get voted into this job.
Many things are illegal but illegal things still occur. It's illegal for someone who owns an apartment building to refuse a prospective tenant because she has children. Just this week-end, I was talking to my new neighbour, who has a child, and who told me about the trouble she went through to get an apartment (which would have been the same pain in the ass had she been a single father). She was outright told that she wouldn't get the apartment because of the child. She had recourses in this situation, but seriously, when you're looking for an apartment and you have a kid to house, are you really going to use those recourses that may take years to yield results? No. You move on. This is not the same situation as salary inequalities. But what you have to keep in mind is that salaries are not routinely disclosed between employees (and many employers strongly discourage the practice even if it is legal). So how can you even know if you're being stiffed? As you noted yourself, the data I provided, while interesting, do not show the full picture and it's really hard to get the full picture unless you have actual people in identical occupations with identical responsibilities to interview. However, in light of the wealth of data I've presented, I am far from sure that women earning less for identical work is a myth, especially considering that every source, even the most right-leaning think-tank, Fraser, concludes that there is a wage gap (Comparing Government and Private Sector Compensation in Ontario, 2015, p.12). I am not satisfied that this wage gap is not a result of historical wage inequities. See it as the tail of Katrina that causes a bad storm once it reaches Quebec. I have not seen convincing evidence that the wage gap is related to anything other than our effort at "catching up" not quite having reached its objective.
[Can I say that I have NO IDEA how I got into this conversation? The least of my worries as someone who is seen as a feminist by friends but doesn't really perceive herself as a feminist (except on this site :smile: ) is pay equity. Canada has made huge strides in that department (e.g. The Public Sector Equitable Compensation Act) and I am satisfied by this country's relatively recent realization that female civil service workers were being paid less than their male counterparts for the same job has been addressed at the federal level. I don't expect the overall wage gap to narrow because, as it's been mentioned, I understand that women do self-select into lower paying positions. Hence, I am not at all convinced by the glass ceiling argument (and I haven't personally experienced it). But I will not be convinced by arguments that male-female pay equity for the same work is a fact until someone shows me facts.]
I never said that. I was referring to a specific situation where "discussing" might not be the right qualifier for the nature of that conversation. Me: "stats". Other individual: "myth". I don't call that a discussion.
Not men's annoying attitude - (some troll) men's systemic denial that there remain any systemic male-female inequalities in this society. The fact that a male ex-minister still, in 2015, thinks it's ok to say to a journalist "you seem to have fattened, dear", is only one illustration that there is still a male mentality out there that thinks it's ok to turn the conversation to women's appearance (or irrational feelings, like when they decide to become independent representatives) when they are put on the spot by females. Let us assume this mentality is limited to retirement-aged men and is not representative of the younger generations (I wouldn't be sure about that reading this site!). Again, I will say I have not personally ever felt like my male counterparts felt I was "just a woman" (i.e. less xyz than men). Then again, I also have my personality. I will not be talked down to by a male. I have experience sexual harassment in every field of work where men work, however. The Gomeshi incident, for me, was just a tangible example of how organizational culture works, and does indeed tend to reward males that act "as males" as opposed to taking females' complaints seriously, to the point that there is no organization that I've worked in where there wasn't a sub-female-culture that warns females of potential male predators. Upon questioning female friends, none ever didn't experience sexual harassment in some workplace. Why is it so complicated to keep one's libido in check? This is but one (other) gendered issue that also consistently gets derided (especially by males-trolls in media outlet comment sections) as myth.
What was said was that women in Canada have more legal rights than Canadian males. The rights gap between Canadian and Congolese women was not the subject. If you want to discuss my feelings on the state of female rights outside this country, even in such 'advanced countries' as the States, expect a far longer chapter than this post
100% agree. I don't know them either, but as I suggested earlier, I've met tons of these men and can corroborate your assertion as fact.
Disagree with this, but I'm biased. I don't think security is an issue for buyers. If buyers feel it's too hot in the kitchen, they don't have to eat there. If women feel the same way, many of them only have McDonald's or other minimum wage to turn to. I think that while we can agree or disagree over the level of female victimization in Canada in the sex trade, we can at least agree that in the aggregate, a much larger proportion of sex trade workers do not have marketable, education/training-based skills that will allow them to make similar or close-to-similar earnings (screw hourly wages - lets talk yearly earnings) as they currently make. Women should not have to meet a bad client and wonder if reporting the incident might land them in more shit. (We're told with the new laws this shouldn't happen, but the new laws also seriously limit their client pool. Same old, same old. "Bad job, girl" - essentially.)
Hey, I'm not the one saying escorts should be respected and turn around and describe them as a slab of meat. I also disagree that sex is somehow defined in relation to objectification, but that's my view on sex. I also agree that women hate to be compared, but I can assure you, probably having more sex-worker friends than the average member here (exclusively indies, admittedly), that none of us enjoy being graded like a cut of steak. We tolerate it because it's the name of the game. We don't feel respected by it. If you want our honesty, there it is.
I don't know about the parlour world. I stand by my point that (large) agency owners earn a far greater income a year than the escorts that work for them and that these higher earnings, unlike escorts', do not reflect any especially special working conditions. Working long hours? Booking? Driving? Overhead costs: websites, advertising, gas, etc.? Show me a small business owner (even with 20 girls, agents still qualify as small business owners - assuming they declared their earnings ) who doesn't invest as much time or resources in his or her work and makes only a small percentage of what escort agents make. Big bucks for what additional stress/work/investment, exactly?
[This is where my "feminism" should come out loud and clear. No man should ever make a higher earning from the sale of services only providable by women than women.]
Your English is perfect and the feeling is mutual.
I didn't provide the Excel sheet to propose an average (and I know you're not saying I did). I only provided it because it allows a person (who thinks wage gaps don't exist) to compare male-to-female earnings in specific occupations and in a specific situation: full-time status over one year. Say, "legislator" where there's a 10% wage gap. This isn't 30% - it's not a huge number, but it's still there and it shouldn't be there and I don't understand why it's there in this specific occupation considering the public is paying for this salary (there is no wage gap in that occupation on this side of the border). Financial managers: why is there a 36% gap? Aerospace engineer: 11%. Civil engineer: 12%. Lawyer: 21%. Physicians and surgeons: 31%. CEO: 34%. This last wage gap is just mind boggling to me. Don't tell me a female CEO is like any other female worker and isn't just as organizational efficiency and effectiveness minded as any male counterpart. She got voted into the job - because she was the best candidate, according to her mainly male BoD peers, for the job. Women who place family before being cutthroat decision-makers simply do not get voted into this job.
Many things are illegal but illegal things still occur. It's illegal for someone who owns an apartment building to refuse a prospective tenant because she has children. Just this week-end, I was talking to my new neighbour, who has a child, and who told me about the trouble she went through to get an apartment (which would have been the same pain in the ass had she been a single father). She was outright told that she wouldn't get the apartment because of the child. She had recourses in this situation, but seriously, when you're looking for an apartment and you have a kid to house, are you really going to use those recourses that may take years to yield results? No. You move on. This is not the same situation as salary inequalities. But what you have to keep in mind is that salaries are not routinely disclosed between employees (and many employers strongly discourage the practice even if it is legal). So how can you even know if you're being stiffed? As you noted yourself, the data I provided, while interesting, do not show the full picture and it's really hard to get the full picture unless you have actual people in identical occupations with identical responsibilities to interview. However, in light of the wealth of data I've presented, I am far from sure that women earning less for identical work is a myth, especially considering that every source, even the most right-leaning think-tank, Fraser, concludes that there is a wage gap (Comparing Government and Private Sector Compensation in Ontario, 2015, p.12). I am not satisfied that this wage gap is not a result of historical wage inequities. See it as the tail of Katrina that causes a bad storm once it reaches Quebec. I have not seen convincing evidence that the wage gap is related to anything other than our effort at "catching up" not quite having reached its objective.
[Can I say that I have NO IDEA how I got into this conversation? The least of my worries as someone who is seen as a feminist by friends but doesn't really perceive herself as a feminist (except on this site :smile: ) is pay equity. Canada has made huge strides in that department (e.g. The Public Sector Equitable Compensation Act) and I am satisfied by this country's relatively recent realization that female civil service workers were being paid less than their male counterparts for the same job has been addressed at the federal level. I don't expect the overall wage gap to narrow because, as it's been mentioned, I understand that women do self-select into lower paying positions. Hence, I am not at all convinced by the glass ceiling argument (and I haven't personally experienced it). But I will not be convinced by arguments that male-female pay equity for the same work is a fact until someone shows me facts.]
I never said that. I was referring to a specific situation where "discussing" might not be the right qualifier for the nature of that conversation. Me: "stats". Other individual: "myth". I don't call that a discussion.
Not men's annoying attitude - (some troll) men's systemic denial that there remain any systemic male-female inequalities in this society. The fact that a male ex-minister still, in 2015, thinks it's ok to say to a journalist "you seem to have fattened, dear", is only one illustration that there is still a male mentality out there that thinks it's ok to turn the conversation to women's appearance (or irrational feelings, like when they decide to become independent representatives) when they are put on the spot by females. Let us assume this mentality is limited to retirement-aged men and is not representative of the younger generations (I wouldn't be sure about that reading this site!). Again, I will say I have not personally ever felt like my male counterparts felt I was "just a woman" (i.e. less xyz than men). Then again, I also have my personality. I will not be talked down to by a male. I have experience sexual harassment in every field of work where men work, however. The Gomeshi incident, for me, was just a tangible example of how organizational culture works, and does indeed tend to reward males that act "as males" as opposed to taking females' complaints seriously, to the point that there is no organization that I've worked in where there wasn't a sub-female-culture that warns females of potential male predators. Upon questioning female friends, none ever didn't experience sexual harassment in some workplace. Why is it so complicated to keep one's libido in check? This is but one (other) gendered issue that also consistently gets derided (especially by males-trolls in media outlet comment sections) as myth.
What was said was that women in Canada have more legal rights than Canadian males. The rights gap between Canadian and Congolese women was not the subject. If you want to discuss my feelings on the state of female rights outside this country, even in such 'advanced countries' as the States, expect a far longer chapter than this post
100% agree. I don't know them either, but as I suggested earlier, I've met tons of these men and can corroborate your assertion as fact.
Disagree with this, but I'm biased. I don't think security is an issue for buyers. If buyers feel it's too hot in the kitchen, they don't have to eat there. If women feel the same way, many of them only have McDonald's or other minimum wage to turn to. I think that while we can agree or disagree over the level of female victimization in Canada in the sex trade, we can at least agree that in the aggregate, a much larger proportion of sex trade workers do not have marketable, education/training-based skills that will allow them to make similar or close-to-similar earnings (screw hourly wages - lets talk yearly earnings) as they currently make. Women should not have to meet a bad client and wonder if reporting the incident might land them in more shit. (We're told with the new laws this shouldn't happen, but the new laws also seriously limit their client pool. Same old, same old. "Bad job, girl" - essentially.)
Hey, I'm not the one saying escorts should be respected and turn around and describe them as a slab of meat. I also disagree that sex is somehow defined in relation to objectification, but that's my view on sex. I also agree that women hate to be compared, but I can assure you, probably having more sex-worker friends than the average member here (exclusively indies, admittedly), that none of us enjoy being graded like a cut of steak. We tolerate it because it's the name of the game. We don't feel respected by it. If you want our honesty, there it is.
I don't know about the parlour world. I stand by my point that (large) agency owners earn a far greater income a year than the escorts that work for them and that these higher earnings, unlike escorts', do not reflect any especially special working conditions. Working long hours? Booking? Driving? Overhead costs: websites, advertising, gas, etc.? Show me a small business owner (even with 20 girls, agents still qualify as small business owners - assuming they declared their earnings
) who doesn't invest as much time or resources in his or her work and makes only a small percentage of what escort agents make. Big bucks for what additional stress/work/investment, exactly?[This is where my "feminism" should come out loud and clear. No man should ever make a higher earning from the sale of services only providable by women than women.]
Your English is perfect and the feeling is mutual.
L
Lily-Rose
Je suis déjà tannée des magasines avec front page de femmes fortes. C'est OK, mais ça une fin aussi me semble. Je sais pas, j'dis ça d'même... Me semble qu'on est plus intelligents que ça.
L
Lily-Rose
L
Lily-Rose
Ben, à la base, on est tous des êtres humains. Tsé! Un moment donné on peut-tu juste arrêter les niaiseries de supériorité.
L
Lily-Rose
Anyway, pour moi, tout ce discours niaiseux, hypocrite et inutile de nos jours et depuis toujours est périmé depuis longtemps ou depuis toujours ;-)
Since the creation of this thread I have wished to contribute. But I am going through complex life events right now and every time I start, i realize that I do not have the time to organize my thoughts. As everything else, this also will pass and i will contribute ASAP, perhaps through a series of short contributions to specific subtopics.
Today, however, reading the last exchanges, I decided to break my silence and say at least a huge and overdue 'thank you' to Orange Juleb for opening this debate. My thanks also to all contributors who debate passionately while remaining respectful; and I will cite, as an example of great debate, the one between Orange Julep and Gugu.
Finally, for today, I wish to propose my short answer to the thread's question: 'Do you really believe in feminism?'
Since feminism is not a religion, I will slightly rephrase the question: 'Do I believe that feminism is necessary'?
My answer: YES, absolutely. Feminism will be necessary until there exists even one woman in the whole wide world who feels oppressed for being a woman and refuses to accept the oppression. A feminist is a person who is serious about supporting that one woman, with all his or her heart and strength. From my perspective, statistics, though useful, are not needed to answer the question.
Today, however, reading the last exchanges, I decided to break my silence and say at least a huge and overdue 'thank you' to Orange Juleb for opening this debate. My thanks also to all contributors who debate passionately while remaining respectful; and I will cite, as an example of great debate, the one between Orange Julep and Gugu.
Finally, for today, I wish to propose my short answer to the thread's question: 'Do you really believe in feminism?'
Since feminism is not a religion, I will slightly rephrase the question: 'Do I believe that feminism is necessary'?
My answer: YES, absolutely. Feminism will be necessary until there exists even one woman in the whole wide world who feels oppressed for being a woman and refuses to accept the oppression. A feminist is a person who is serious about supporting that one woman, with all his or her heart and strength. From my perspective, statistics, though useful, are not needed to answer the question.
Especially for Orgone and Orange_Julep ==>
Article from Yahoo about Feminism :
https://ca.news.yahoo.com/think-tan...ause-115158735.html?bcmt_s=m#ugccmt-container
Article from Yahoo about Feminism :
https://ca.news.yahoo.com/think-tan...ause-115158735.html?bcmt_s=m#ugccmt-container
.
Thank you for starting this thread, Orange_Julep. It's been an interesting read so far.
Sex work never made me feel objectified: I am a willing participant in this industry and understand what it entails.
On the other hand, detailed reviews and being rated does make me feel like an object. It has nothing to do with being compared to others.
Like I say on my website:
"It would be greatly appreciated if you could keep in mind that I am a human being, a real person, a woman, a private companion and not a piece of meat available for you to grade at your own leisure."
Why make it personal or even speculate on the quality of her clientele or how much money she is (or not) making?
An SP doesn't have to be constantly reviewed to make a decent/good/excellent living. The review board clients only represent a small fraction of all clients out there. Some legit and "high quality" ladies have been around for years and have never been reviewed but yet, are very successful in this industry.
And yes, a large majority of SPs dislike being rated. There's a way to review ladies without treating them like inanimate products.
Don't even get me started on the "but in other countries", high rates in Montreal and taxes...
Thank you for starting this thread, Orange_Julep. It's been an interesting read so far.
Sex work never made me feel objectified: I am a willing participant in this industry and understand what it entails.
On the other hand, detailed reviews and being rated does make me feel like an object. It has nothing to do with being compared to others.
Like I say on my website:
"It would be greatly appreciated if you could keep in mind that I am a human being, a real person, a woman, a private companion and not a piece of meat available for you to grade at your own leisure."
Why make it personal or even speculate on the quality of her clientele or how much money she is (or not) making?
An SP doesn't have to be constantly reviewed to make a decent/good/excellent living. The review board clients only represent a small fraction of all clients out there. Some legit and "high quality" ladies have been around for years and have never been reviewed but yet, are very successful in this industry.
And yes, a large majority of SPs dislike being rated. There's a way to review ladies without treating them like inanimate products.
Don't even get me started on the "but in other countries", high rates in Montreal and taxes...
Yes, well this goes back to the question I asked in my first post, "Do you believe women are the cause of women who are escorts (i.e. of prostitution demand)?"
I think it's all very funny.
Very thoughful post, OJ. Thanks for sharing. I guess it’s better to set the technical discussion aside.
I’ve never met a sp who likes the crude descriptions and notation system. I don’t like it either and never used it. The nicest comment have heard from a sp, Anouk in Québec, is ‘I’d love to get a few a critical reviews. It would help me improve.” I call that professionalism, something describing her to the fullest. I agree with Gabrielle also. Guys are very practical. They like efficiency. I don’t think it’s going to change. I’m not judging, just saying the intentions are practical, not crudely objectifying.
I’m also biased of course, but I think security is an important matter for many clients. The are a lot of scams in this business. I also think LE considers security for both sides of the transaction without saying it. They live in the real world and know very well that there are not only damsels in distress in there. That’s why they tolerate in-call, the safest setting for sex work.
The increasing opposition to feminism today is not about the issues you are interested in. It’s about radical gender war feminism you can see in public organisations like the CSFQ, the student and most left activism and main stream media. Radical ideas are important. However, when we are not allowed to discuss them without being called misogynist (my lot on Rabble) even by supposedly moderate figures like Lise Payette; when public figures refrain from reacting against the covert rape accusations at UQAM last year; when American universities are forced in applying Title 9 n the USA (preponderance of evidence instead of beyond reasonable doubt in cases of rape accusations”); when we see justice made in the media in cases like Ghomeshi and DSK (yes I defend their right to a fair trial), I think we have gone too far.
I’ve never met a sp who likes the crude descriptions and notation system. I don’t like it either and never used it. The nicest comment have heard from a sp, Anouk in Québec, is ‘I’d love to get a few a critical reviews. It would help me improve.” I call that professionalism, something describing her to the fullest. I agree with Gabrielle also. Guys are very practical. They like efficiency. I don’t think it’s going to change. I’m not judging, just saying the intentions are practical, not crudely objectifying.
I’m also biased of course, but I think security is an important matter for many clients. The are a lot of scams in this business. I also think LE considers security for both sides of the transaction without saying it. They live in the real world and know very well that there are not only damsels in distress in there. That’s why they tolerate in-call, the safest setting for sex work.
The increasing opposition to feminism today is not about the issues you are interested in. It’s about radical gender war feminism you can see in public organisations like the CSFQ, the student and most left activism and main stream media. Radical ideas are important. However, when we are not allowed to discuss them without being called misogynist (my lot on Rabble) even by supposedly moderate figures like Lise Payette; when public figures refrain from reacting against the covert rape accusations at UQAM last year; when American universities are forced in applying Title 9 n the USA (preponderance of evidence instead of beyond reasonable doubt in cases of rape accusations”); when we see justice made in the media in cases like Ghomeshi and DSK (yes I defend their right to a fair trial), I think we have gone too far.
I think the rephrasing is much better and I very much relate with your answer. It reminds me of this quite brilliant piece on racism: https://thsppl.com/i-racist-538512462265 (long, but so worth the time).
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