downtown student protests - outcall disruptions

[rumpleforeskiin]

Louis, I'd have done a bit of research on Ms. Wente before posting her gibberish. This the same Margaret Wente who defended the publication of an article in MacLean's which decried "too many Asians" in Canadian universities. The is the same Margaret Wente who wrote numerous anti-occupy articles last fall. The same Margaret Went who has been publishing hate laced anti-Muslim screeds for the last 10 years. This is the same Margaret Wente who has been accused of plagiarism numerous times. You really should check your sources. Who knows, you could be quoting Glenn Beck next.

http://halifax.mediacoop.ca/fr/blog/asaf-rashid/171

 

[Merlot]

Merlot, while it might be true that the passage of Bill 78 made the situation worse, it's not true, as you imply, that everything would have been fine without this law.

Hello Capt,

Thanks for the historical chronology. It's helpful for a broader perspective.

If the impression I gave was that "everything would have been fine", (by "fine" I take it you thought I was saying this issue would have been over) let me just say that's not what I meant. What I meant was that the point where this issue escalated and turned in the direction of generating much more support than otherwise it would have would have been avoided. I fully accept that the issue itself would have remained, as clearly it's been an ongoing situation for many years, which however is far from unique to Montreal.

Like Nixon before him, Charest's days are numbered. I don't see any choice but to call for an election. He's misread public sentiment in legendary fashion. Libertine Quebec is just not the place to be offering up repressive legislation.

I'm not sure if his days are "numbered". But the consequential business costs, negative international attention, and the aggravation of old political issues like secession, all should leave a very bad taste in the collective mouths of his political support base. Besides the challenge from other parties and public dissatisfaction, if there is a credible candidate who wants to challenge him for leadership within his own party then this "bone-headed mistake" has provided is a good opportunity.

Cheers,

Merlot

 

[HornyForEver]

Enough desinformation...

Here's the FACTS showing which faculties are still on stike. Now, the conclusion you can deduce from that it's yours. The list is taken from the CLASSÉ Internet site (in date of May 9th

So, the students on strike are mostly indeed from humane sciences as was published in this thread. I also know from a fact that some universities like École Polytechnique for instance had only a one day strike. I have nothing against students who study social sciences, music or theatre, but I found this list very intersting.

On the other hand, and in a bulk-reply to many posts I have read here. I also firmly believe that acess to higher education should be granted to anyone (anyone with a good elementary and high school record). Degrees should only be granted on merit though. I have seen numerous students claiming that they needed a passing grade just because they paid their tuition fees.

And by the way, this thread was much more informative than the news we watch on RDI and such other channels.

 

[fitz]

Thanks Rumple for the cautionary note about Wente.

If guys want to post something from the Globe and Mail, why not post Business reporter Rob Carrick's observations of university costs today vs 1984:

2012 vs. 1984: Young adults really do have it harder today
"The average price of a house in Toronto back in 1984 was just over $96,000. I wasn’t buying just then, but it’s worth noting that the average family after-tax income back then was close to $50,000. [...]
"After earning a three-year BA (majoring in political science) at York University in Toronto back in 1984, I landed a summer job as a copy editor at The Canadian Press...I was financially self-sufficient and incurred zero debt. [Today the average debt for university graduates today is almost $27,000.]
"Today, financial self-sufficiency is impossible without taking breaks from school to work. The Bank of Canada’s handy inflation calculator tells us that my $1,000 tuition back in 1984 would cost $2,028 today if it increased just by the inflation rate annually. But according to Statistics Canada, the latest read on average tuition fees is $5,366.
In Ontario, the minimum wage is $10.25. A student who puts in a 40-hour work week for 12 weeks would stand to make about $4,900. That’s a sizable shortfall on tuition, never mind the cost of student fees, books and living expenses. As a parent of an 18-year-old heading to university out of town next year, I can tell you that budgeting $18,000 to $20,000 per year is prudent.

"Buying a house is another point where the experience of older Canadians is unlike what today’s younger generation faces. Canadian Real Estate Association data show the average national price of a home in mid-1984 was $76,214. If houses kept up with inflation – and that would be a pretty good result all on its own – the average house would now cost $154,587. In April, the actual average was $369,677. [...]
House prices themselves are an abstract number – the real question is how affordable a home is. Data from a 2011 Conference Board of Canada study on income inequality shows the average family after-tax income in 1984 was $48,500. In 2009, the latest date included in the study, income levels had risen to $60,000. In 1984, a house might have cost a family 1.6 times its annual income. Today, we’re looking at a multiple of something around six."

Also check out Carrick's earlier column: "Young adults have a right to be up in arms"

 

[MtlNewbie]

I just want to say that I've been discouraged from going to Cleo's for the last 2 weeks because of the demonstrations. There's literally a huge one going past my place right now. I tried to go last week and there were a million police cars whizzing around and closing off the streets, so I gave up and drove home. Last weekend right at the corner in front of the Chinatown gates it got violent with a molotov cocktail. I also no longer drive at night, I went to Provigo Wednesday night and there were a million police and all the people banging on pots and pans were spilling out onto the road. Cleos is definitely losing my business, that is a fact.

Back to the issue, it is very very divisive. Personally, I don't support violence and this movement is extremely violent. Also, it's impossible to have a conversation with anyone on the topic because nobody can be reasoned with. Any time I bring up the violence, those supporting the disruptions say everyone is innocent and the police are arresting innocent people, when I mention then dropping rocks on cars passing under the tunnel by Viger, they say that the reports are false. Everyone who wants free tuition gives an unreasonable solution to providing free tuition, like the Queen's diamond jubilee! How is the cost of that at all relative to education spending. If the students had their way, every taxpayer would be paying siginificantly more taxes and our taxes are already the highest in Canada. Those same people banging their pots would be enraged at our taxes.

 

[Gentle]

Ontario students will likely ask to get their tuition fees revised.
They went into a news conference stating that they understand Quebec's students for fighting for their rights !

This is what you can hear by taking a bike ride in some parts of Montreal now !
I'd say about the area Rumple was talking about !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKx_az9vNbI

And tonight, the protests did spread to many cities outside Montreal and the regions despite what some people are suggesting that it is only in Montreal.
The list of the cities are now : Montreal, Quebec, Laval, Boucherville, Sherbrooke, Trois-Rivieres, Gatineau, Saguenay, Granby etc.
The new motto now is "La loi 78 on s'en calisse".

This is what I meant with all my "demagogy" out here
about people who didn' get it !

So hopefully you got it now !

Have fun !

This premier can hang on to his throne as much as he wants now !
He just made history with his Bill 78 ! :lol:

"Welcome to 2012 mononcle !"

And for you guys like Freedom who would like to know if this new festival is affecting outcalls and tourism... rest assure that this city is safe for you !
Montreal ranks third now on Lonely planet's best summer cities' list !

And the kicker !

Montreal has been chosen for the 'World police and fire games for 2017'. No joke !
Mouwahwawah ! F*ckin' hilarious ! :lol: :lol:

 

[Gentle]

And here's the kicker !

This (article) one's for you Merlot who took time in trying to find out exactly what was going on and posting a well balanced opinion for both sides.

It's an english one and really one of the best written that explain the real feeling in Quebec !

Quebec protests adopt a Latin flavour
INGRID PERITZ
MONTREAL— From Saturday's Globe and Mail
Published Friday, May. 25, 2012 9:44PM EDT
Last updated Friday, May. 25, 2012 9:49PM EDT

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news... RSS/Atom&utm_source=Home&utm_content=2444222

Really I say :thumb: to the Globe and Mail to put this article on line !

And like you often say in your line of work : I rest my case !

 

[CaptRenault]

As this Gazette columnist points out, the perception that Montreal is not a good place to take a vacation this summer is starting to spread, thanks in part to the efforts of supporters of the protest. Whether or not Montreal actually is still a good place to take a vacation this summer might no longer matter.

Henry Aubin: Our blackened reputation
By Henry Aubin,
The Gazette May 25, 2012 9:02 PM
Student groups appear "saintly" in an opinion piece written for the New York Times by two local professors.

MONTREAL - Montreal’s street drama is hurting the upcoming tourist season – a huge source of jobs. Airlines are seeing a significant number of cancelled reservations on international flights coinciding with Grand Prix weekend. Festival organizers fear protester disruptions. Hotels’ summer reservations are already 10-per-cent lower than expected.
And now, making matters worse, some supporters of the student protests are writing articles in foreign newspapers that present the city in a most uninviting light.


Here’s what two Université de Montréal professors have to say in a piece that appeared Thursday on the op-ed page of the New York Times:
“Americans travelling to Quebec this summer should know they are entering a province that rides roughshod over its citizens’ fundamental freedoms,” Pascale Dufour and Laurence Bherer wrote. The Charest government, “one of the most right-wing governments Quebec has had in 40 years,” has “gone rogue, trampling basic democratic rights in an effort to end the student protests” over the province’s “plan to raise tuition by 75 per cent.” The government’s “draconian” Bill 78 “grants authorities a carte-blanche for the abuse of power” and “creates a climate of fear and insecurity” for citizens. The professors likened Quebec to the rights-squashing Russia of Vladimir Putin. Lovely.


Also on Thursday, another prestigious newspaper, Britain’s The Guardian, published a piece by a Montreal journalist, Martin Lukacs. It resorts to the same excited vocabulary. The “draconian” Bill 78 shows how the “political elite has no qualms about trampling human rights.” More: “With every baton blow and tear-gas blast, (young Quebecers) perceive with ever greater lucidity that their government will turn ultimately to brute violence to impose (elitist) programs.”
I’m all for hard-hitting opinion pieces. But they need to be grounded in facts, all the more so when you’re addressing an out-of-town audience that doesn’t know much about your subject and can’t weigh what you say critically.


Too, you have to be extra careful when your words could contribute to people – those working in restaurants, shops, hotels and tourist sites, and those driving taxis – losing income or jobs. (City hall says a successful Grand Prix has an economic spinoff of $90 million, the Jazz Festival $96 million.)
Let me see how the Times essay in particular goes about blackening Quebec’s reputation. Authored as it is by political-science professors, it has a patina of scholarship. And the Times’ own reputation for rigour adds to the perception of credibility.


Dufour and Bherer say only that tuition would rise by 75 per cent – a surge that would alarm any reader. What they don’t say is that tuition is now $2,168 – lowest in North America. They also don’t say the 75-per-cent hike would not be all at once but, rather, graduated over seven years and, most important, that it would bring tuition to $3,946. Most U.S. readers would see that as an amazing bargain. (The Guardian also omits this key info.)


The authors never say why Bill 78 exists. A reader could hardly guess the law is meant a) to stop students from ignoring court injunctions by using intimation to keep other students from going to class and b) to require organizers to tell police their route of march and thus let police take preventive steps against vandalism and traffic chaos.


The authors’ description of the law as “draconian” is hyperbole. As I wrote Thursday, the bill has some problems: It would, for example, impose truly crushing fines on student organizations that failed to respect a route of march. But, on the whole, it strikes a balance between the needs of protesters and public security. It does not forbid a student boycott. It does not prevent students from using non-intimidating means to persuade other students to join a boycott. It does not prevent daily marches.


The authors’ Manichaean view of this conflict rests on distortion. They present student groups as saintly, saying they all condemn troublemakers; there’s no hint the main group has been loathe to condemn violence against property.


And their depiction of the Charest government as far right wing ignores that it has presided over North America’s leading nanny-state by expanding it. (Economist Martin Coiteux notes that when the government came to power in 2003 the state’s expenses represented 19.6 per cent of Quebec GDP; in 2011, 25 per cent.)
Bad enough that the student crisis is weakening the quality of francophone universities that, national and international surveys state, is generally sub-average to begin with. But now it’s Montreal’s economy that risks suffering.


That economy is remarkably weak to begin with: The metropolitan region has the lowest per-capita GDP of North America’s 32 biggest regions, says the Communauté métropolitaine de Montréal. The three months of daily protests have already hit downtown merchants, but the tourist season is what matters most.


The effect on the city’s tourism economy by this week’s grotesquely unbalanced depiction on the tourism of Quebec could be hard to undo: The stature of the Times and The Guardian is such that their articles are likely to influence other foreign media’s take on the crisis.
The best to be hoped for now is that student groups will back away from threats to disrupt tourist activities. But, given the mood of this protest, that might be hoping too much.

 

[RobinX]

You need to take anything Henry Aubin says about the student protest with a grain of salt. Henry Aubin, like most of the editorial staff at The Gazette, has been vehemently opposed to the student strike since day 1. For a more balanced view I would suggest reading Le Devoir.

 

[gugu]

So, the students on strike are mostly indeed from humane sciences as was published in this thread. I also know from a fact that some universities like École Polytechnique for instance had only a one day strike. I have nothing against students who study social sciences, music or theatre, but I found this list very interesting.

1 A one day strike shows at least one thing: they oppose the 80% tuition increase planned by the government, just like the huge majority of students all across cegep and university programs.

2 I think the immense success of the student federations is only possible because they have a large approval rate of their members, including those not on strike.

3 Not being on strike does not mean they take no action. They can participate in student assemblies, go down on the streets at night and helping in many other ways.

4 Individual decisions about getting in the strike may be linked to many factors. IMHO, the most important is the balance made between their immediate condition and the evaluation they make of their future condition. I think they are more likely to protest if they are uncertain about their future. From that point of view the Quebec student strike may be a much larger social movement, comparing to all the other movements around the world showing a loss of confidence in the economic system and the political elite servicing it. Humanity students may be more sensible to those issues.

 

[EagerBeaver]

As this Gazette columnist points out, the perception that Montreal is not a good place to take a vacation this summer is starting to spread, thanks in part to the efforts of supporters of the protest.

I have been programmed to receive Hotwire price drop alerts and I have been watching the situation closely to see if there are price drops for certain dates in July on which I might travel. So far no price drops for my selected dates, but there may have been for some others, What will happen is that if Hotwire inventory starts to lag as a result of bookings slowing, everyone who has configured Hotwire to alert them to price drops will have their email box fill up.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

I just want to say that I've been discouraged from going to Cleo's for the last 2 weeks because of the demonstrations.

I've been discouraged from going to Cleo's for the last five years because of the women there.

Personally, I don't support violence and this movement is extremely violent.

Oh? Can you give some examples of this "extreme" violence? Are you referring to the banging of pots and pans? Or perhaps you're referring to the police beating on demonstrators, but really there's not even a whole lot of that.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

You need to take anything Henry Aubin says about the student protest with a grain of salt. Henry Aubin, like most of the editorial staff at The Gazette, has been vehemently opposed to the student strike since day 1. For a more balanced view I would suggest reading Le Devoir.

As I suspected from the first word. Thanks for this. There seems to be a pretty quick rejoinder every time the Capt. posts another knee-jerk column by another yellow journalist. Hey, Louis, I've got an idea. Instead of lapping up every fear-mongering screed you can find, why don't you pay us a visit and see for yourself. Montreal's lovely this time of year. The girls are out in droves, all dressed to drive you crazy with their little red patches.

I have been programmed to receive Hotwire price drop alerts and I have been watching the situation closely to see if there are price drops for certain dates in July on which I might travel. So far no price drops for my selected dates, but there may have been for some others, What will happen is that if Hotwire inventory starts to lag as a result of bookings slowing, everyone who has configured Hotwire to alert them to price drops will have their email box fill up.

This I'd say is much better evidence of what's really happening than are the articles by the Francophobiac writers Instpector Renault continues to dredge up.

The organizer of the tour that I'm involved with coming in with 120 cyclists next week tells me that she's received no calls or emails of concern from any of those signed up with her.

Again, this is all much ado about nothing. Montreal, despite Louis' attempts from afar to strike fear into our hearts, is same as it ever was.

 

[Siocnarf]

In fact it must be the safest time to hobby in Montreal. With the police busy, they have less time to crack down on MP and incalls, I would think.

 

[Techman]

I love how every article written that is not in favour of the demonstrations is immediately dismissed along with the writers of the article by those who disagree with it. This is exactly the same attitude of the protestors: Anyone who disagrees with us is wrong. One thing some people are saying is completely correct though...there are some basic rights in this province that are being discriminated against such as the right to express yourself or to live in whatever language you choose. These students have no objection against the prohibition of English in Quebec society which is a much larger attack on a free society than Bill 78 will ever be but in all their ranting and raving, I've never heard any student leader mention that. But requiring an 8 HOUR notice of a demonstration and the filing of a route for the protest is a devastating attack on their rights. Yeah, right. Sure it is.

I wonder how well the Tour de L'Isle cycle event will go off this year if these protests are still going on. That should be the perfect target for disruption.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

I love how every article written that is not in favour of the demonstrations is immediately dismissed along with the writers of the article by those who disagree with it.

Not necessarily dismissed, Techman, but viewed through the filter of knowing the persistent biases of the authors of those particular articles. In each case cited by Captain Renault, a quick check of the author's biography quickly informs the reader that the content of the article is consistent with the author's long held biases.

I wonder how well the Tour de L'Isle cycle event will go off this year if these protests are still going on. That should be the perfect target for disruption.

As for the Tour De L'Ile and Tour la Nuit, considering that these are events "of the people," I suspect that the only disruption will be the usual one: massive traffic jams around the event routes. I do expect to see thousands and thousands of red patches attached to the cyclists' bibs.

 

[CaptainPicard]

...et les clubs de danseuses

http://www.journaldemontreal.com/2012/05/25/des-cabarets-ebranles

Le Capitaine!

 

[EagerBeaver]

http://www.journaldemontreal.com/2012/05/25/des-cabarets-ebranles

Le Capitaine!

English translation:

Imagine, I'm not even in downtown Montreal and my sales fell by nearly 20% since the beginning of student protests, three months ago, "said Maxime Emard, manager of the strip club Amazons, on the Rue Saint-Jacques, located 5 km from downtown.

Blame the traffic problems in his opinion. "Take a taxi from their hotel to get out of downtown is a real shit for tourists. Then, they travel less. "

At the time of our visit to the Amazons, early yesterday afternoon, there were three customers in this immense bar where 25 dancers waddle after 20 h

"Thursday night, I got 144 customers while Thursday is the average of over 300," said Maxime Emard.

Worse downtown

In some areas of downtown, the situation is even worse. If tourists from nearby hotels are present in these cabarets, one can not always be said for regular customers.

The manager of a major strip club downtown has agreed to open its books in exchange for anonymity, an issue to avoid negative publicity.

"For three months, my sales had dropped by at least 45%, he said. Half of my clients are local Laval and South Shore. The demos run near my business almost every night. They are not enough wineries to engage in traffic jams to visit us. "

Dancers mad

Marie, a dancer from the club, a lot against the students, many of which are its customers.

"They keep a little discomfort, they do not come much more. This is sure to pay for dances at $ 10 after participating in an event whose purpose is to save less than $ 400 per year, it does not look good, "she said.

The young woman of 25 years knows whereof she speaks. It is this work that pays tuition for its college and university.

The last session, she was a student at the Free University of Quebec at Montreal (UQAM). Next fall, she will begin a nursing program at Collège Édouard-Montpetit.

The student and exotic dancer also wants students to the precipitous decline in revenues for three months.

"My salary alone, these are the dances at $ 10. Before the demonstrations, a normal evening could bring me back $ 400. These days, it is often between 150 and $ 200.

"One night it was I who paid for work, rattle JJ, stage name of a cabaret dancer met the Amazons. After paying the babysitter, dinner and taxi, I was below $ 20 in my evening. "The last straw: after work, the taxi driver took a wrong turn and fell ... on a student demonstration.

In free fall

The blocking of streets by students is not solely responsible for the decline of cabaret, striptease.

"The owners of strip clubs does not boast, but their escort services have gained considerable market share for two years," says François Petit, marketing consultant with bars and professional photographer pinup .

"When you can have a complete service for $ 150 in the comfort of your home, why you would pay roughly the same price on alcohol and dances in a cabaret for an incomplete service? "He asked.

Moral of the story according to Francis Small: cabarets must improve their offer and not just wait until after the student demonstrations.

 

[Techman]

Fine, Rumples, but why don't you apply your filters to the articles and statements to those in favour of the protests as well? Where is the uproar against unions getting involved by supporting the students both financially and organizationally? What business do unions have getting involved in this situation? Unions that tend to be supporters of the PQ who are also giving their support. Could there possibly be ulteriour motives in this support? Perhaps they want nothing more than to bring down the existing government at any cost and really don't give a damn about what the protest is about or what the fallout from it may be? Oh no, I'm sure their motives are as pure as snow.

 

[Merlot]

Hello gentlemen,

Fine, Rumples, but why don't you apply your filters to the articles and statements to those in favour of the protests as well?

True, the fact that there are many in opposition to the protests does make the basic points of the opposing writers valid, despite their habitual impulses. Even the more extreme persistent impulses can't be dismissed since that is often the foundation of writers with the will and professionalism to demonstrate public moderation. That's not to mention that biases and extremism seem equal on both sides.

Where is the uproar against unions getting involved by supporting the students both financially and organizationally? What business do unions have getting involved in this situation? Unions that tend to be supporters of the PQ who are also giving their support.

Well, I agree, but isn't self-interested opportunity the reason why any movement grows on any side, and isn't this an opportunity that has attracted the unions because of the momentum created by Charests moves, and the public resentment against the perceived civil rights abuses.

Cheers,

Merlot