downtown student protests - outcall disruptions

[Merlot]

Hello gentlemen,

Fine, Rumples, but why don't you apply your filters to the articles and statements to those in favour of the protests as well?

True, the fact that there are many in opposition to the protests does make the basic points of the opposing writers valid, despite their habitual impulses. Even the more extreme persistent impulses can't be dismissed since that is often the foundation of writers with the will and professionalism to demonstrate public moderation. That's not to mention that biases and extremism seem equal on both sides.

Where is the uproar against unions getting involved by supporting the students both financially and organizationally? What business do unions have getting involved in this situation? Unions that tend to be supporters of the PQ who are also giving their support.

Well, I agree, but isn't self-interested opportunity the reason why any movement grows on any side, and isn't this an opportunity that has attracted the unions because of the momentum created by Charests moves, and the public resentment against the perceived civil rights abuses.

Cheers,

Merlot

 

[Techman]

Tell me something Merlot...in the US are unions permitted to get involved in politics and to support political parties? Are unions permitted to 'recommend' who to vote for to their union members?

 

[Merlot]

"Tell me something Merlot..."

Hello T-man,

I'll tell you this, and it's not meant to be combative with you...just an acknowledgement of what goes on. Unions aren't not supposed to be political units per se, but neither are churches (or many other entities) all of which are supposed to respect separation of church and state despite how they push the faithful to support or reject legislation, candidates, and parties. It's a fact of life that anyone or any organization gets involved with or exploits a side for it's own purposes, or may feel it a duty in principle, even if the basic issue does not necessarily pertain to their specific purpose of being. I've rarely if ever found one side holier than the other.

In my basic opinion at heart, the students are protesting an absolute necessity in that some raise in tuition seems reasonable considering education costs and the very low rates in Montreal as I understand it. But, if they don't protest they are only allowing the rates to be shoved down their throat, so protest is necessary to have some control of how much and how fast. Yet, the direction this has gone on both sides is disturbing.

Cheers,

Merlot

 

[Techman]

You didn't answer my question.

 

[Merlot]

You didn't answer my question.

"Unions aren't not supposed to be political units per se,"

yes i did in the edit........always give me a little time...or a week... to edit.

 

[Techman]

As far as I was aware, unions in the US are prohibited from having any involvement in politics at all. They are not permitted to contribute to political campaigns or to promote any particular party or candidate and are not permitted to influence their membership to vote in any particular manner.

I do have a problem with this statement of your's though..." But, if they don't protest they are only allowing the rates to be shoved down their throat, so protest is necessary to have some control of how much and how fast. Yet, the direction this has gone on both sides is disturbing."

What do you mean shoved down their throats? Rates of all kinds of things tend to go up in this world of ours. Gas prices jump 10 cents a litre overnight and it doesn't lead to the streets being filled with protestors. Food prices go up, cell phone rates go up, hydro rates go up, rents go up, and the streets don't fill with protestors. The Belle Province restaurant near my office put their prices up a couple of weeks ago by about 25 to 45 percent - breakfast jumped from 2.99 to 4.45, almost 50%, but I didn't see their customers picketing and complaining about it. That's life, the cost of products and services tends to go up.

It's well past time that these students get over themselves and accept it. Maybe it's also well past time that the major Universities are privatized and the government gets the hell out of it altogether.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

English translation:

Imagine, I'm not even in downtown Montreal and my sales fell by nearly 20% since the beginning of student protests, three months ago, "said Maxime Emard, manager of the strip club Amazons, on the Rue Saint-Jacques, located 5 km from downtown.

Only 20%, I'd have thought his business down even more given the closure of the St. Jacques exit from the 720. That area is a nightmare.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

Well, I just took a spin around the town to see just how our fair city is coping with the anarchist threat.

Took a stroll down Mont-Royal and where I'd have expected to see throngs of pretty young women in summer clothes what did I see but throngs of pretty young women in summer clothes with red patches. I shudder to think that in just a few hours these fetching young things will turn into pot and pan wielding terrorists. God knows what you can do with a wooden spoon. I did notice that all the stores on this usually busy street were shuttered, the shopkeepers peering through the cracks while protecting their merchandise. (OK, I made that last sentence up.)

I then went off to the Atwater Market and where I expected to see throngs of happy people shopping, there were just a few frightened looking people anxiously gathering up a few provisions before hurrying home to the safety of their homes. (OK, I made that up too. The place was a madhouse. So was the bike path.)

Riding home through the old port I spied an enormous cruise liner flying the Dutch flag. There wasn't a soul in sight. I did see a sign, however, warning the passengers that the city is under siege and that they left the boat at their own risk. The sign, in six languages, admonished the passengers to particularly watch out for people wielding pots and pans. (Well, I made that up too.)

I decided then to come home and call one of the agencies that had recently lowered rates to $80 an hour in these desperate times, but, sigh, that doesn't seem to have happened either.

How're things down there in the bunker, Techman? Stay safe and, by all means, don't go out at night.

 

[Techman]

That's not the exit you'd take to go to the Amazon. You'd take the Angrignon exit and cross over the 20 and then up to St.Jacques.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

As far as I was aware, unions in the US are prohibited from having any involvement in politics at all. They are not permitted to contribute to political campaigns or to promote any particular party or candidate and are not permitted to influence their membership to vote in any particular manner.

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Unions contribute huge amounts to political campaigns in the US and they regularly endorse candidates on the local, state, and national levels.

That's not the exit you'd take to go to the Amazon. You'd take the Angrignon exit and cross over the 20 and then up to St.Jacques.

Not if you're coming from downtown. You'd get off at the St. Jacques exit. There is no Angrigon exit on the 720. It's on the 20. Taking the Angrignon exit would require you to go through the Turcot and onto the 20. Nobody in their right mind would do that if they didn't have to.

 

[Techman]

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Unions contribute huge amounts to political campaigns in the US and they regularly endorse candidates on the local, state, and national levels.

There you go, someone who actually answered the question I asked earlier. The reason I asked it was becaues I did not know the answer. Thank you.

 

[Numerati]

Wow. Even with a $325 increase each year for the next few years I can say a Quebec native going to say McGill is a damn bargain compared to the U.S.! For a Quebec resident total fees including tuition at McGill would be $4,337 for 2012/1013. After all the tuition increase where by the fifth year it is $5,637. So all four years would come out to half of what an American student would be spending with room and board for just one year.

A non-Quebec Canadian it is $8,037 would be 1.89% increase for 2010/2011 and 2.52% for 2012/2013. Still a damn bargain compared to the U.S.

You Canadian folks are spoiled and have it too good! First the women and now this.

 

[Techman]

Not if you're coming from downtown. You'd get off at the St. Jacques exit. There is no Angrigon exit on the 720. It's on the 20. Taking the Angrignon exit would require you to go through the Turcot and onto the 20. Nobody in their right mind would do that if they didn't have to.

Why not? Are you going to the Amazon during rush hour? Why would I want to drive along St.Jacques and deal with the traffic lights and local traffic when I can just cruise along? And neither exit has anything to do with people coming from other areas like the West Island. The exit you mention has been closed off and on over the last year and it didn't seem to have had any effect on their business so why should it now?

But of course, you are 100% behind the students so you will automatically discount the fact that there is any economic effect from their protests. Why shouldn't you be? It's not like you pay income tax here and it's not your money that will have to pay for their tuition. Then again, I guess it could be worse. I could be American and have to watch my government waste TRILLIONS of dollars on wars they cannot hope to win in the end.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

But of course, you are 100% behind the students so you will automatically discount the fact that there is any economic effect from their protests.

Actually, there's been a huge economic effect. My neighbour is the kitchen department manager at Linen Chest at the Carrefour Angrignon. He tells me there's been a run on saucepans like you wouldn't believe. They can't keep wooden spoons in stock. His brother-in-law is an assistant manager at Reno Depot in Laval. He told him that every warehouse this side of Ottawa is out of Ahmed's Brand® Molotov Cocktail Mix and that Ali's@ Pipe Bomb kits are backordered til September.

It's not like you pay income tax here and it's not your money that will have to pay for their tuition.

Bullshit, pal. I paid some just the other day through an intermediary. At least I assume she'll be turning some over to R

Then again, I guess it could be worse. I could be American and have to watch my government waste TRILLIONS of dollars on wars they cannot hope to win in the end.

True enough. And the bastards that started the whole mess aren't even in jail.

 

[gugu]

As far as I was aware, unions in the US are prohibited from having any involvement in politics at all. They are not permitted to contribute to political campaigns or to promote any particular party or candidate and are not permitted to influence their membership to vote in any particular manner.

What was the relevance of that question? You ask it as if the USA was the ultimate model to be followed.

While I agree with most of rumple's appreciation of the real state of things in Montreal, a great open air party, the roots of the mobilization is deeper, thanks to the CLASSE, the real initiators of the movement based on direct democracy. A great video in english with some of their leaders: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQcX1S4xIXc

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

While I agree with most of rumple's appreciation of the real state of things in Montreal, a great open air party, the roots of the mobilization is deeper, thanks to the CLASSE, the real initiators of the movement based on direct democracy. A great video in english with some of their leaders: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQcX1S4xIXc

Absolutely, absolutely. However, I think that 90% of the students are oblivious of that fact and are simply going along for the ride. I believe that was true during the Viet Nam era demonstrations in the US and I think that's true here today. (That did change after the bombing of Cambodia and the Kent State killings.) The atmosphere that exudes from the nightly demonstrations is not an angry one by any means.

 

[Siocnarf]

After weeks of hiding in fear in my appartment, I said No more! I would go out downtown and see an incall even if it means being trampled and dismembered by the Crusading Shepherds.

So many pretty girls everywhere! How eveything appears so beautiful when you are about to die. On Ste-Catherine I finally heard loud ringing noises and people screaming and I thought “This is it. I regret nothing!” It was a wedding, complete with church bells and noisy children. Why so much hate?

My ordeal was not over. I saw young people dressed in red harassing passer-bys. Oh, no! They saw me! I’m dead! Oh, they're only the Red-Cross. Finally! We could use some relief here. Turns out they were only looking for a handout like any bum. Sorry, I did not expect to live so I gave all I have to an escort.

I even went as far as going into a book store. I felt this would brand me as a seditious intellectual and I was sure to get lynched by the Blackshirts. No such luck however. If no one is going to hurt me, I will do it myself. I went for a poutine. A large one. Mmmmh, escort and poutine on the same day... We only live once!

 

[gugu]

For God sake, rumple, stop making fun me by highlighting my grammar errors. I destroy enough your beautiful language every sentence I write, I don't need to be remembered of it.

(But I' ll forget about it if your offer me beer next time we meet)

(That did change after the bombing of Cambodia and the Kent State killings.)

Unfortunately true. And, of course, it brings back to us the eternal end of things since the beginning of the humanity: the God damn violence. And it does indeed change things. If I may, a few words about it.

Violence was at the forefront of the right wing appreciation of the movement. It is the one nail to hammer. Case closed for them: there is use of violence, so they lost the game.

This is a very confrontational battle and to win points you need to disturb significantly your adversary. The students have been successful like nobody before on this. I had such a laugh yesterday when I red about Bachand (the finance minister) who said the casserole movement was very cute and that this was the way for citizens to express their concern. My good fellow citizens, I encourage you to express yourselves as long as I don’t feel disturbed.

A battle is fought by creating disturbance.

The uniqueness of the Québec student movement is PRECISELY the fact that they did this without resorting to violence. I have a lot of respect for the police force in general, but I think they lied to us when saying they can’t control the Black block activists and other apologists of violence. If they can’t take control of it, either they don’t want to or they are simply incompetent. Their data banks are loaded with information on these groups.

Violence has occurred at a microscopic level, unprecedented. For you guys too young (here, I’ll get an other beer) or from outside, the violence of the union movement in the seventies had no common grounds with today’s tickling. And police methods have evolved quite a lot since, using violence more then ever before (FLQ era was under the federal war measures) unnecessarily in most cases.

The students have won the information warfare by a 4 touchdown margin. You guys really think the cabinet members are as much concerned with violence as they are with their image in the problem solving. They have the ultimate control over one thing: the legitimate monopoly of force (that’s what defines a state). But they have no control over their image building in the medias in trouble times.

This may sound surprising to you, but most cabinet ministers are social democrats. That’s a bit to the left of what you Americans call liberals, although some members, including the Prime minister, are further to the right. I can guaranty to you, that most have trouble getting sleep at night.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

For God sake, rumple, stop making fun me by highlighting my grammar errors. I destroy enough your beautiful language every sentence I write, I don't need to be remembered of it.

(But I' ll forget about it if your offer me beer next time we meet)

Je ne comprends pas. I wasn't making fun of your shitty English, but highlighting the point you were making. Oh, hell, I'll buy you a beer next time you're brave enough to enter Montréal. Don't forget your flak jacket. You never know when a stray spoon may come flying your way.

 

[Merlot]

As far as I was aware, unions in the US are prohibited from having any involvement in politics at all. They are not permitted to contribute to political campaigns or to promote any particular party or candidate and are not permitted to influence their membership to vote in any particular manner.

Hello Techman,

Yes, I acknowledged this. Maybe not so specifically. The point was we all know the situation of what is supposed to be versus what happens. Entities/organizations find ways of getting around laws.

I do have a problem with this statement of your's though..." But, if they don't protest they are only allowing the rates to be shoved down their throat, so protest is necessary to have some control of how much and how fast. Yet, the direction this has gone on both sides is disturbing."

What do you mean shoved down their throats? Rates of all kinds of things tend to go up in this world of ours. Gas prices jump 10 cents a litre overnight and it doesn't lead to the streets being filled with protestors.

It's well past time that these students get over themselves and accept it.

Yes, gas and food prices go up. People don't fill the streets to protest and get the rates shoved down their throats. I agree...my point made.

It would be past time for the students to "get over themselves" if Charest hadn't tried to get heavy-handed with his methods of handling the students. I believe there is a more moderate plan to space out the rise in tuition rates over time with a lower overall ceiling that would have taken the current edge off the level of opposition if Bill 78 had not been implemented. Without that I doubt that the students would have anywhere near the level of current support.

The students should face the fact that rates must rise with costs. However, those opposing the students should face the fact that the handling of the issue has given it the fuel to increase support for the students protests.

Again, it's a two-way street of faults.

Cheers,

Merlot