BTW Doc, felicitations pour avoir changé ta signature en bas... ca fait moins rose nanane !
Elections: MERB poll results and before/after elections discussions.
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BTW Doc, felicitations pour avoir changé ta signature en bas... ca fait moins rose nanane !
Maybe Du-Q is just pointing at the fact that you think you know about Quebec as much as you know about hockey
Si tu prefere, je te reponderai en francais dans le futur. Si ca peut t'aider a mieux me comprendre.........
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Finalement, ceci sera unes de mes dernieres entrees dans cette section concernant notre fameuse politique canadienne.
Ce que je retiens depuis hier est qu'on aura Harper comme PM pour les prochaines quatre annees. Les gens qui ne voulaient pas d'elections devraient etre content pour ca. Le NPD est en fete, cependant les gens ne semblent pas realiser que le NPD a moins de pouvoir qu'avant car les bleus sont majoritaires. Les Liberaux, et bien, ca fait pitie. Un gros manque de leadership au sein du parti et Michael Ignatief a demissionne ce matin. Il va falloir que les rouges s'ameliore au niveau campagne de salissage si ils veulent encore rivaliser avec les blues, qui sont devenus des artistes dans ce domaine. Pas surprenant, car ils ont des anciens lieutenants de l'ancien President Bush qui les aident (Karl Rove, David Frum, etc).
Le Bloc Quebecois. Ayoye! Quelle raclee!! Gilles Duceppe, la grosse tete d'affiche du parti depuis sa naissance, demissionne. Le parti presque aneantie a grandeur le Quebec! Comme fier canadien, je suis satisfait de ce resultat, car d'apres moi, le Bloc ne faisait que nuire a notre belle province. Au lieu de travailler avec le gouvernement en tete, le Bloc ne faisait que chialer et aider a mettre des obstacles entre le Quebec et le reste du Canada. Bref, il nuisait au bien-etre du Canada. Cependant, pas un seul depute du Bloc refusait de se faire payer par ce meme gouvernement canadien. Duceppe va maintenant beneficier d'un beau cheque de pension du Canada! Bravo mon Gilles, bien fait!
Vivre le Quebec. Vivre le Canada. Vivre le francais. Vivre le billinguisme!
Ce que je retiens depuis hier est qu'on aura Harper comme PM pour les prochaines quatre annees. Les gens qui ne voulaient pas d'elections devraient etre content pour ca. Le NPD est en fete, cependant les gens ne semblent pas realiser que le NPD a moins de pouvoir qu'avant car les bleus sont majoritaires. Les Liberaux, et bien, ca fait pitie. Un gros manque de leadership au sein du parti et Michael Ignatief a demissionne ce matin. Il va falloir que les rouges s'ameliore au niveau campagne de salissage si ils veulent encore rivaliser avec les blues, qui sont devenus des artistes dans ce domaine. Pas surprenant, car ils ont des anciens lieutenants de l'ancien President Bush qui les aident (Karl Rove, David Frum, etc).
Le Bloc Quebecois. Ayoye! Quelle raclee!! Gilles Duceppe, la grosse tete d'affiche du parti depuis sa naissance, demissionne. Le parti presque aneantie a grandeur le Quebec! Comme fier canadien, je suis satisfait de ce resultat, car d'apres moi, le Bloc ne faisait que nuire a notre belle province. Au lieu de travailler avec le gouvernement en tete, le Bloc ne faisait que chialer et aider a mettre des obstacles entre le Quebec et le reste du Canada. Bref, il nuisait au bien-etre du Canada. Cependant, pas un seul depute du Bloc refusait de se faire payer par ce meme gouvernement canadien. Duceppe va maintenant beneficier d'un beau cheque de pension du Canada! Bravo mon Gilles, bien fait!
Vivre le Quebec. Vivre le Canada. Vivre le francais. Vivre le billinguisme!
I couldn’t agree more with you, JF.
I was actually about to answer just that.
But, I got to say that you have better words than me to say it.
I would add that actually I am quite glad about the turnout.
I see the vote of Québec as a vote of conviction…as out vote for the Bloc, in the past.
Is Nationalism dead in Québec…no no no, by far.
And this vote shows it even more so.
It widens even more the cleavage (what a nice word…so merby :smile between English Canada and Québec.
And it confirms what you were saying, JF, about the cultural, ideological and historical difference between English Canada and Québec.
We have focused much on Nationalism in the Separatist discourses.
And this hides much of the fundamental reasons why we should separate.
Now, I believe that things are much clearer.
We can now focus on what makes us so different, beside the French language and its culture.
Maybe English Quebecers and Québec Allophones can relate to our vision of how the country we live in should be.
At least, if they recognize the fundamental shift than occurred in Canadian and Québec politics.
Of course, it would be a French country, but it would be much more than that, also.
One thing is for sure, we can’t expect much from the Conservative government.
Its track record, in Québec, leaves a lot to be desired, as for its track record for First Nations.
On the topic of First Nations, I surely hope that their spirit is not dead.
And I would love to see them treated more fairly, with more respect and compassion.
I believe that we lost a lot more than we gain, human wise, with their downfall.
Other things for sure, the Québec spirit is certainly not dead.
On the other hand, one thing makes me hilarious is to think about the face of Ontarians realizing what they’ve done…:lol:
They must be banging their hands on the wall…Ha!
I was actually about to answer just that.
But, I got to say that you have better words than me to say it.
I would add that actually I am quite glad about the turnout.
I see the vote of Québec as a vote of conviction…as out vote for the Bloc, in the past.
Is Nationalism dead in Québec…no no no, by far.
And this vote shows it even more so.
It widens even more the cleavage (what a nice word…so merby :smile
between English Canada and Québec.And it confirms what you were saying, JF, about the cultural, ideological and historical difference between English Canada and Québec.
We have focused much on Nationalism in the Separatist discourses.
And this hides much of the fundamental reasons why we should separate.
Now, I believe that things are much clearer.
We can now focus on what makes us so different, beside the French language and its culture.
Maybe English Quebecers and Québec Allophones can relate to our vision of how the country we live in should be.
At least, if they recognize the fundamental shift than occurred in Canadian and Québec politics.
Of course, it would be a French country, but it would be much more than that, also.
One thing is for sure, we can’t expect much from the Conservative government.
Its track record, in Québec, leaves a lot to be desired, as for its track record for First Nations.
On the topic of First Nations, I surely hope that their spirit is not dead.
And I would love to see them treated more fairly, with more respect and compassion.
I believe that we lost a lot more than we gain, human wise, with their downfall.
Other things for sure, the Québec spirit is certainly not dead.
On the other hand, one thing makes me hilarious is to think about the face of Ontarians realizing what they’ve done…:lol:
They must be banging their hands on the wall…Ha!
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Comme fier canadien, je suis satisfait de ce resultat, car d'apres moi, le Bloc ne faisait que nuire a notre belle province. Au lieu de travailler avec le gouvernement en tete, le Bloc ne faisait que chialer et aider a mettre des obstacles entre le Quebec et le reste du Canada. Bref, il nuisait au bien-etre du Canada. Cependant, pas un seul depute du Bloc refusait de se faire payer par ce meme gouvernement canadien. Duceppe va maintenant beneficier d'un beau cheque de pension du Canada! Bravo mon Gilles, bien fait!
Vivre le Quebec. Vivre le Canada. Vivre le francais. Vivre le billinguisme!
Toe pi ton cheque du gouvernement ! J'paye des esti de taxes au federal depuis une lurette pi j'ai toujours moins de service grace a qui ? Les liberaux et les Tories ! Fais moé donc rire avec la pension du Canada !
Pour ce qui est du Bloc qui nuisait au Canada ? ca m'etonne pas Both Tories and Liberals were caught by the bloc in major scandals and corruption deals.
La main dans l'sac comme on dit ! pas etonnant qui voulait en faire 'plus' pour le Canada. Imagine le genre de retraite dorée qu'ils se payent.
Vas y Doc ! continue a payer des taxes de fous sur l'essence a un gouvernement qui se plais a les augmenter en se graissant la patte avec les grandes petrolieres au detriment des provinces et des enjeux importants autre que les armes, les prisons, les sables bitumineux et les gazebos a 1 milliard la cote.
Faut tu etre naif pour continuer de penser que les Tories et les Liberaux n'ont pas nuis au Canada.
Voyage un peu baquet pi tu vas voir que le Canada a perdu sa belle image partout dans le monde a cause de leur stupide arrogance !
Pi si t'as d'la misere a lire un resultat d'election tu verras que les liberaux et les tories se sont fait cremer au Quebec aussi.
On voulait du changement et c'est d'meme qu'on fait ca nous autres !
Pas en s'pettant les brettelles de looser comme les Tories et les Liberaux font en s'imaginant que le vrai resultat est le depart du Bloc !
BTW Saganash a ete elu comme je le pensait ! Good stuff !
If we can hear more from First Nations and even if they go against Quebec on some issues at least we won't have arrogant federalists nitwits who thinks they owned everything because they collect their fre*kin Canada's pension check one generation after the other !
Bunch of loosers
Toe pi ton cheque du gouvernement ! J'paye des esti de taxes au federal depuis une lurette pi j'ai toujours moins de service grace a qui ? Les liberaux et les Tories ! Fais moé donc rire avec la pension du Canada !
Pour ce qui est du Bloc qui nuisait au Canada ? ca m'etonne pas Both Tories and Liberals were caught by the bloc in major scandals and corruption deals.
La main dans l'sac comme on dit ! pas etonnant qui voulait en faire 'plus' pour le Canada. Imagine le genre de retraite dorée qu'ils se payent.
Vas y Doc ! continue a payer des taxes de fous sur l'essence a un gouvernement qui se plais a les augmenter en se graissant la patte avec les grandes petrolieres au detriment des provinces et des enjeux importants autre que les armes, les prisons, les sables bitumineux et les gazebos a 1 milliard la cote.
Faut tu etre naif pour continuer de penser que les Tories et les Liberaux n'ont pas nuis au Canada.
Voyage un peu baquet pi tu vas voir que le Canada a perdu sa belle image partout dans le monde a cause de leur stupide arrogance !
Pi si t'as d'la misere a lire un resultat d'election tu verras que les liberaux et les tories se sont fait cremer au Quebec aussi.
On voulait du changement et c'est d'meme qu'on fait ca nous autres !
Pas en s'pettant les brettelles de looser comme les Tories et les Liberaux font en s'imaginant que le vrai resultat est le depart du Bloc !
BTW Saganash a ete elu comme je le pensait ! Good stuff !
If we can hear more from First Nations and even if they go against Quebec on some issues at least we won't have arrogant federalists nitwits who thinks they owned everything because they collect their fre*kin Canada's pension check one generation after the other !
Bunch of loosers
C'est beau, c'est beau.....
To read JH Fan's illiterate rubbish is depressing. Sure there are differences between Quebec and other regions of the country, but that's normal. The same is true everywhere, even in the USA. What worries me with the huge orange crush in Quebec is that fools like JH will expect the NDP opposition the take on the role of the Bloc and "defend Quebec's interests" in Ottawa. When that fails the betrayal and humiliation drumroll will begin all over again.
Sinbad
Sinbad
May I suggest that you read the Sherbrooke declaration. The NDP will defend the Québec interest in the future, just like it did for at least the last 10 years. The NDP does not consider Québec as a region, neither as a province like the other provinces. It is a nation with its history, language, culture and political institutions. The NDP truly respects that and it is the main reason why it was elected in Québec. Many, like me, do not consider separation as the only way to protect our culture. The NDP offered an unprecedented mean to make a living space for Québec within Canada. Quebecers ceased the opportunity.
Ok, but a while back it became a bad way to get elected to anything in Quebec. And it is now officially a very bad way.
Ok, great. And you continue to do so while remaining a part of Canada.
And every generation of english Canadians who failed to see this ended-up with a major f*cking headache !
And they're about to have one in the years to come !
Generaly speaking, there's one every 10-15 years or so... and I can't wait to see the next one
Answichil
So you're not even saying wait until next year ... you're saying wait until the next decade or so. And you're not saying Quebec will leave Canada, you're just saying there'll be a lot of noise and unpleasantness. Okay.
Well, there's the separatist agenda. Doesn't sound like much, does it?
Hey mon ami, aimes-tu ça manger des pétates :lol:?
Ça fait je sais pas combien de temps que les observateurs avertis de la scène politique le disent: les Québécois en ont ras-le-bol de se faire parler souveraineté. Ti-Gilles a appelé les reliques (Marois, Larose, Parizeau) à sa rescousse la semaine dernière, et voici les résultats ce matin
La démocratie a parlé, respectons le résultat. Ça fait très longtemps que le Québec flirte discrètement avec le NPD, maintenant nous sommes fiancés. Le NPD s'engage à respecter les compétences du Québec, c'est un parti social-démocrate avec un leader qui n'a jamais démordu de ses principes, ce qui n'est pas peu. Je connais monsieur Layton depuis qu'il est a été conseiller municipal à Toronto, et il n'a jamais changé son fusil d'épaule.
Voici mes prévisions: Harper va tout de même "bien" mener le pays côté affaires, mais évidemment nous rapprocher plus de l'Oncle Sam. Côté social et environnement, oublions ça pour 5 ans. Il va essayer de cultiver les grosses légumes de droite du Québec avec un certain succès. Pendant ce temps, la "gauche" va se réorganiser, ils ont bien vu que le vote est divisé. Le Parti Libéral, on oublie ça. Certains journalistes parlaient de fusion Libéral-NPD hier soir, moi je pense plutôt que le parti va s'auto-détruire après des défections majeures vers le NPD. Justin Trudeau pourrait être un des premiers :eyebrows:. 5 ans, ça laisse plein de temps pour organiser et mûrir une vraie alternative aux Cons...
Côté provincial, les libéraux là aussi sont sur le bord de la faillite, mais le PQ transpire la vétusté. Personne n'écoute Françoise David, mais 30% des gens sondés auraient voté pour François Legault dès qu'il a annoncé ses couleurs. On s'aligne pour des gros changements là aussi.
Ce qui est arrivé hier soir, c'est que le Québec est à l'avant-garde des grands courants politiques. Le reste du pays va nous suivre à la prochaine élection.
Hey mon ami...tu te permets de jouer à la politique fiction, alors laisse-moi le droit d'y jouer aussi! J'aime bien tes théories sauf que je ne vois pas qui d'autre que le PQ pourrait bientôt remplacer les libéraux au Québec. Les québécois ont remplacé le Bloc par le NPD pour les représenter à Ottawa et la seule chose que ça veut dire c'est que les québécois sont et seront à tout jamais différents des autres canadiens. Aujourd'hui ils ont démontrés en faisant élire 59 des 102 députés du NPD, qu'ils étaient en parfaite contradiction idéologique avec le reste des canadiens qui ont tiré envore un peu plus vers la droite et ont donné à Harper une inquiétante majorité.
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This is scary!!! If your line is followed the NDP will suck Canada back into a constitutional debate. Quebec's demands will never be accepted in the ROC, and the separatists will use the dissention whip up the flames of separation. If I were Pauline Marois I might be very happy to have the ineffectual Bloc replaced by the naive NDP.
And, by the way, Quebec language and culture are very well protected now, in Canada, without any further silly empty declarations about nation status.
Sinbad
Where in the NDP program did you see they want to reopen the constitutional debate? Have you heard a Québec NDP candidate saying there is any urgency in reopening the constitutional debate?
The Québec language and culture are relatively well protected now in Canada, not in any way by the Canadian government but by the Québec legislation. The dissention whip will come out again the day Québec’s power to decide its language and culture policies is overruled, in a constitutional debate or otherwise. That day, I will turn separatist. Meanwhile, I applaud the NDP’s will to make Québec work language policy applicable in the federal jurisdiction businesses in Québec.
The empty declaration about the nation status is the declaration associating a nation with a region. It’s usually based on ignorance.
Gugu, you are sincere and believe the NDP will help keep Quebec in Canada. I hope you are right. BUT! In the campaign Jack Layton said two very foolish things. He referred to "winning conditions" to eventually get Quebec's signature on the constitution. That was Lucien Bouchards expression to set the stage for a successful separation referendum! Then he talked about extending bill 101 to ferdral institutions in Quebec. Extending Bill101 provisions is another lightning rod issue. The NDP caucus will be dominated by Quebec MPs. My point is that if the party gets sucked into promising things like this to Quebec, the next fed election could be fought with these issues on the table. At that time we could well have a PQ governemnt here. They would certainly use the occasion to make demands for Quebec that would be unacceptable in the ROC. You see where this is going??
Sinbad
Sinbad
Layton never agreed to extend 101 provisions to federal institutions in Quebec. I'm not even sure that he could do that only in Quebec but might have to do it across the country. Good luck with that. Duceppe tried to corner him on that point but never received a straight answer. Besides, there ain't much chance that Layton will ever be Prime Minister so talking about it is a waste of time.
And I wouldn't be too sure of a PQ win in the next provincial election either. If she tries the same thing Duceppe did by pulling out all the old warhorses from the past, it'll probably blow up in her face too. People want something new and the Bloc wasn't it and neither is the PQ with the same old retoric, year after year after year...
And I wouldn't be too sure of a PQ win in the next provincial election either. If she tries the same thing Duceppe did by pulling out all the old warhorses from the past, it'll probably blow up in her face too. People want something new and the Bloc wasn't it and neither is the PQ with the same old retoric, year after year after year...
Quite true. Personally, i've always regarded the NDP as being mostly a protest party. But the fact they'll be the main opposition party at the federal level is quite a feat! David Lewis would have been very proud of him. I'm sure the likes of Ed Broadbent & Stephen Lewis were quite pleased the other night once the elections results were given.
I agree with your remark about the PQ. Every year, it is indeed the same old retoric. They've got nothing else to run on other than the same old separatist issues. It gets boring after a while, no?
What I really hate about the PQ, and all separatists really, is that they try to stack the deck and even when they lose, they insist on playing again and again until they win. Then and only then will the game be over. It would be like playing an overtime playoff game and it wouldn't matter how many goals the other team scored, or how long the game goes on, the game isn't over until the PQ scores. The final score could be 25-1, but as long as they finally get that 1 goal...game over. Oh yeah...and they make the rules and hire the officials.
Sounds pretty feeble when you think of it that way, doesn't it? Accurate too.
Sounds pretty feeble when you think of it that way, doesn't it? Accurate too.
Sin, « Winning condition » was an appropriate term in the circumstances: wining the Québec people support to the federation through a real recognition of the nation, asymmetric federalism and respect of its power to legislate to protect its language, culture and institutions. That is what the NDP promises. And a lot of Canadians, in every province, are very confortable with it.
Of course, Québec, both the PQ and the Liberals, has made a lot of demands in the past and it will continue to do so. So do all the provinces. It is politics, it is running a federation. It involves tensions. What I find positive with the NDP position is their probable ability to canalize a large part of the soft federalists soft nationalists element of the Québec society.
Tech, Layton has said it (extension of Québec work language policies) quite often during the campaign. He did not go into much detail though. He named some finance institutions, banks among others, and the federal government agencies. Of course, it would be a very complex issue to deal with. There is a long road from theory to reality but I appreciate his will to accommodate Québec on this matter. I call it open federalism.
Of course, Québec, both the PQ and the Liberals, has made a lot of demands in the past and it will continue to do so. So do all the provinces. It is politics, it is running a federation. It involves tensions. What I find positive with the NDP position is their probable ability to canalize a large part of the soft federalists soft nationalists element of the Québec society.
Tech, Layton has said it (extension of Québec work language policies) quite often during the campaign. He did not go into much detail though. He named some finance institutions, banks among others, and the federal government agencies. Of course, it would be a very complex issue to deal with. There is a long road from theory to reality but I appreciate his will to accommodate Québec on this matter. I call it open federalism.
I do not believe in federal governments placing one language group over all others in any circumstance. This is institutionalized racism. It is acceptable in provincial institutions as they can 'justify' it, however feebly. It is not acceptable in Federally regulated institutions in a country that is bilingual. Any attempt to do this would lead to widespread outrage in the rest of Canada which is exactly what the separatists want to happen. Another 'insult', another 'provocation' against Quebec to use as an excuse to justify separation. How much longer do we have to put up with this inward thinking of small minded individuals who want to insulate themselves from a world that is becoming smaller every day?
Ideas like this from Layton are exactly why I don't trust him. He's too willing to bend over and spread his cheeks to try to placate a group of people who will never be satisfied until they get what they want no matter the price.
Ideas like this from Layton are exactly why I don't trust him. He's too willing to bend over and spread his cheeks to try to placate a group of people who will never be satisfied until they get what they want no matter the price.
That is where the argument crumbles IMHO. On the one hand, I respect your position because you seem to be able to understand the legitimacy of the Québec government to have specific language policies. You disagree with the Canada clause (more precisely the Québec clause), but I don’t think you disagree, contrary to sinbad, that we force most immigrants (exception made of those you stated previously) to send their children to French schools.
On the other hand, when it does not fit your specific criterias, which may be legitimate, it becomes institutionalized racism. The wording is harsh, as a matter of fact symmetrical to the wording you denounce coming from the radical separatists.
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