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Elections: MERB poll results and before/after elections discussions.

what will be your vote?

  • Conservative

    Votes: 10 17.5%
  • Liberal

    Votes: 16 28.1%
  • NPD

    Votes: 22 38.6%
  • Bloc Québecois (....)

    Votes: 9 15.8%

  • Total voters
    57
  • Poll closed .

Techman

The Grim Reaper
Dec 23, 2004
4,199
0
0
Layton never agreed to extend 101 provisions to federal institutions in Quebec. I'm not even sure that he could do that only in Quebec but might have to do it across the country. Good luck with that. Duceppe tried to corner him on that point but never received a straight answer. Besides, there ain't much chance that Layton will ever be Prime Minister so talking about it is a waste of time.

And I wouldn't be too sure of a PQ win in the next provincial election either. If she tries the same thing Duceppe did by pulling out all the old warhorses from the past, it'll probably blow up in her face too. People want something new and the Bloc wasn't it and neither is the PQ with the same old retoric, year after year after year...
 

Doc Holliday

Hopelessly horny
Sep 27, 2003
19,290
715
113
Canada
Layton never agreed to extend 101 provisions to federal institutions in Quebec. I'm not even sure that he could do that only in Quebec but might have to do it across the country. Good luck with that. Duceppe tried to corner him on that point but never received a straight answer. Besides, there ain't much chance that Layton will ever be Prime Minister so talking about it is a waste of time.

And I wouldn't be too sure of a PQ win in the next provincial election either. If she tries the same thing Duceppe did by pulling out all the old warhorses from the past, it'll probably blow up in her face too. People want something new and the Bloc wasn't it and neither is the PQ with the same old retoric, year after year after year...

Quite true. Personally, i've always regarded the NDP as being mostly a protest party. But the fact they'll be the main opposition party at the federal level is quite a feat! David Lewis would have been very proud of him. I'm sure the likes of Ed Broadbent & Stephen Lewis were quite pleased the other night once the elections results were given.

I agree with your remark about the PQ. Every year, it is indeed the same old retoric. They've got nothing else to run on other than the same old separatist issues. It gets boring after a while, no?
 

Techman

The Grim Reaper
Dec 23, 2004
4,199
0
0
What I really hate about the PQ, and all separatists really, is that they try to stack the deck and even when they lose, they insist on playing again and again until they win. Then and only then will the game be over. It would be like playing an overtime playoff game and it wouldn't matter how many goals the other team scored, or how long the game goes on, the game isn't over until the PQ scores. The final score could be 25-1, but as long as they finally get that 1 goal...game over. Oh yeah...and they make the rules and hire the officials.

Sounds pretty feeble when you think of it that way, doesn't it? Accurate too.
 

gugu

Active Member
Feb 11, 2009
1,741
17
38
Sin, « Winning condition » was an appropriate term in the circumstances: wining the Québec people support to the federation through a real recognition of the nation, asymmetric federalism and respect of its power to legislate to protect its language, culture and institutions. That is what the NDP promises. And a lot of Canadians, in every province, are very confortable with it.

Of course, Québec, both the PQ and the Liberals, has made a lot of demands in the past and it will continue to do so. So do all the provinces. It is politics, it is running a federation. It involves tensions. What I find positive with the NDP position is their probable ability to canalize a large part of the soft federalists soft nationalists element of the Québec society.

Tech, Layton has said it (extension of Québec work language policies) quite often during the campaign. He did not go into much detail though. He named some finance institutions, banks among others, and the federal government agencies. Of course, it would be a very complex issue to deal with. There is a long road from theory to reality but I appreciate his will to accommodate Québec on this matter. I call it open federalism.
 

Techman

The Grim Reaper
Dec 23, 2004
4,199
0
0
I do not believe in federal governments placing one language group over all others in any circumstance. This is institutionalized racism. It is acceptable in provincial institutions as they can 'justify' it, however feebly. It is not acceptable in Federally regulated institutions in a country that is bilingual. Any attempt to do this would lead to widespread outrage in the rest of Canada which is exactly what the separatists want to happen. Another 'insult', another 'provocation' against Quebec to use as an excuse to justify separation. How much longer do we have to put up with this inward thinking of small minded individuals who want to insulate themselves from a world that is becoming smaller every day?

Ideas like this from Layton are exactly why I don't trust him. He's too willing to bend over and spread his cheeks to try to placate a group of people who will never be satisfied until they get what they want no matter the price.
 

Royal

Out of Order
Jun 25, 2010
140
9
18
Montreal
Techman, you clearly don't know your history if you're going to throw terms like 'institutionalized racism'. This country has two people who founded it, and it is THAT basis that gave rise to the notion of bilingualism in this country. If you recognize bilingualism, you have to recognize the notion of two distinct people, French and English. It started with Upper and Lower Canada you see? This is a historical fact; what Quebec wants is to be recognized as such (back to the officious status-quo pre-1982), and re-enter the constitution so that its status as a "founding" people be protected. Harper did that for them by recognizing them as a nation... so that's not an issue anymore. I do believe that the PCC will eventually do what the Meech lake accord was trying to accomplish but indirectly :)

Quebec will need some time to accept a 'rightist' party though, they're still a little traumatized by the right because of what they went through in their own provincial political history, and also because they were told that Harper is the devil incarnate for the past few years. A decentralized government is best for them anyways (even if they don't realize it yet). Anyways, hurray for the PCC, I'm glad they're in power cause they won't interfere in the constitutional prerogatives of the provinces. Yeeeah!

By the way, the French and English should be placed above ALL others in Canada... Western society should be placed above ALL others. You see Multiculturalism is dead (France, Britain, Germany, Australia, Austria, they all agree on that) Interculturalism should be the new policy. Interculturalism is a political ideology that does not place a priority for all cultures to be on the same level as a basis to organize a given society. Its main objective is rather to develop a common civic culture based on the values of freedom and liberty, and of human rights, as derived from the Western civilization, while encouraging interaction between the communities living in the same country. As such, interculturalism requires democracy and full respect for universal human rights (whereas multiculturalism explicitly doesn't have this requirement, particularly in nations like Canada where such expectations are already enforced through acts like the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, 1982).
 
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gugu

Active Member
Feb 11, 2009
1,741
17
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I do not believe in federal governments placing one language group over all others in any circumstance. This is institutionalized racism. It is acceptable in provincial institutions as they can 'justify' it, however feebly.

That is where the argument crumbles IMHO. On the one hand, I respect your position because you seem to be able to understand the legitimacy of the Québec government to have specific language policies. You disagree with the Canada clause (more precisely the Québec clause), but I don’t think you disagree, contrary to sinbad, that we force most immigrants (exception made of those you stated previously) to send their children to French schools.

On the other hand, when it does not fit your specific criterias, which may be legitimate, it becomes institutionalized racism. The wording is harsh, as a matter of fact symmetrical to the wording you denounce coming from the radical separatists.
 

gugu

Active Member
Feb 11, 2009
1,741
17
38
Harper did that for them by recognizing them as a nation... so that's not an issue anymore.

It was an empty idea of nation I think, just like their vision of asymmetrical federalism. It does not go further than a vague promise not to get over provincial jurisdiction.
 

Possum Trot

Banned
Apr 19, 2008
379
0
0
Quite true. Personally, i've always regarded the NDP as being mostly a protest party. But the fact they'll be the main opposition party at the federal level is quite a feat! David Lewis would have been very proud of him. I'm sure the likes of Ed Broadbent & Stephen Lewis were quite pleased the other night once the elections results were given.

David Lewis was 10 times the man that Jack Layton is. Layton is a 40 watt light bulb who thinks he is a chandelier. My prediction is that this will be exactly the "flash in the pan" in Quebec that the ADQ was.
 

sinbad

Member
Dec 11, 2004
359
17
18
Montreal
Here's the problem as i see it. The Quebec NDP vote is the classic protest vote. They didn't like the Libs, Cons or their leaders, and they were fed up with the bloc's negativity. The good news is that Duceppe went from hero to zero in a heartbeat. It's safe to say that many of these protest voters will be looking to the NDP to advance Quebec friendly positions (read Nationalist) over the next 4years.

The NDP cannot implement any change as the opposition, but they will be listened to, and their policies will be examined. Gugu, I read the Sherbrooke declaration, and it will ruffle some feathers in the ROC when it becomes more widely studied. If we end up with an ugly split in Ottawa between the NDP and the Tory govt. over Quebec, the seps in The PQ will use it as another humiliation argument and wind up the separation/referendum machine.

I'm not anti NDP at all. I just think one of their big challenges will be to avoid the trap i have outlined.

sinbad
 

Doc Holliday

Hopelessly horny
Sep 27, 2003
19,290
715
113
Canada
What I really hate about the PQ, and all separatists really, is that they try to stack the deck and even when they lose, they insist on playing again and again until they win. Then and only then will the game be over. It would be like playing an overtime playoff game and it wouldn't matter how many goals the other team scored, or how long the game goes on, the game isn't over until the PQ scores. The final score could be 25-1, but as long as they finally get that 1 goal...game over. Oh yeah...and they make the rules and hire the officials.

Je suis entierement d'accord avec vous, Technicien! :D
 

JH Fan

New Member
May 15, 2008
1,167
0
0
To read JH Fan's illiterate rubbish is depressing. Sure there are differences between Quebec and other regions of the country, but that's normal. The same is true everywhere, even in the USA. What worries me with the huge orange crush in Quebec is that fools like JH will expect the NDP opposition the take on the role of the Bloc and "defend Quebec's interests" in Ottawa. When that fails the betrayal and humiliation drumroll will begin all over again.

Sinbad

Ha ha ! You didn't see it coming did ya ?

Depressed Sinbad ?
You think I expect anything from the NDP ?
To defend Quebec's interests in Ottawa ?
You got to be kidding !

You think it's only a matter of French vs. English or federalism vs separatism ?

What is clear.. from you guys is the lack of interest and respect towards First Nations !
And you have Techman whining all about the immigrants being forced into french schools...
Poor Babies ! you've come to Canada and now you are forced to learn french ! that is so unfair !
Here...here ! Don't cry ! Here's my thumb to suck on it !

BTW I like your insult Sinbad ! An illiterate fool :)
 
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Doc Holliday

Hopelessly horny
Sep 27, 2003
19,290
715
113
Canada
What is clear.. from you guys is the lack of interest and respect towards First Nations !
And you have Techman whining all about the immigrants being forced into french schools...

And, we're also tired of your constant whining about the lack of interest & respect towards First Nations.

It's always the white man's fault, right? You poor baby! :lol:
 

JH Fan

New Member
May 15, 2008
1,167
0
0
Gugu, I read the Sherbrooke declaration, and it will ruffle some feathers in the ROC when it becomes more widely studied. sinbad

...Speaking of feathers... do you know what it means to raise an eagle one ?

Do you have any idea why the separation/referendum machine like you call it came back to life in the 90's ?
Are you as much ill informed as Techman and Doc to believe it's only a game of who wins a ref or not ? and that there is only 2 teams playin ?

I'll give you a hint !
Meech Lake was intended to persuade the government of the Province of Quebec to endorse the 1982 Canadian Constitution.
And here is second one ! It was negotiated in 1987 without the input of Canada's Aboriginal peoples.

It was a botched attempt to get Quebec in while leaving First Nations out !
And all along... english Canadians in other provinces arguing over Quebec's demands never to care for First Nations !

Now since you guys know more than me... tell me what is the signification to raise an eagle feather !
Give me a moment in time not long ago when this signification came into life about this land you call Canada !
Who did it, when, why and what are his origins ?
 
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wasisname

Banned
Nov 12, 2007
625
0
0
And, we're also tired of your constant whining about the lack of interest & respect towards First Nations.

It's always the white man's fault, right? You poor baby! :lol:

The lack of respect like allowing them to run riot and doing nothing about it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caledonia_land_dispute
The lack of respect by doing everything to shut down anyone who dares speak out against them
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...free-to-drop-by-canadian-tire/article2010502/
The lack of respect by having special access to well paying jobs
Having special access to money for university
Being able to sidestep the usual requirements for admission to law and medical schools.

The lack of respect by making them expect from the Ontario HST, Income tax and GST on reserve income/purchases while still paying for everything
The lack of respect shown by having a double standard where Europe goes ballistic with the anti immigrant policies of the Freedom Party in Austria, yet Indians can shove out people who were married into their racially pure bantustans http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantustan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kahnawake#Race-based_evictions
Spending 200 million dollars to move 680 people 15km away http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/aboriginals/natuashish.html [actually by moving them from one place to another place with no jobs where everyone knows the same problems will continue as opposed to expecting them to stand on their own two feet is a lack of respect, self respect on their part.

I could sure use some of that lack of respect.

Never mind that most people in this country are either descended from someone who moved from one part of the British Empire/Kingdom of France to another facing a long expensive and dangerous sea voyage, or who moved to a country with a different language and culture, or faced the discrimination of for example the Chinese and Japanese out west, yet they did so to try to improve their lives yet we have people living in isolated reserves with no jobs and nothing to do but drink or sniff gas, yet even though they have citizenship and have English or French they refuse to do anything to help themselves. [There are some exceptions of course but they just prove the rule.
 

JH Fan

New Member
May 15, 2008
1,167
0
0
And, we're also tired of your constant whining about the lack of interest & respect towards First Nations.

It's always the white man's fault, right? You poor baby! :lol:

Glad I could make you feel tired :)

Cuze... If we dig deep enough we always find this skin color sh*t everytime !
It's like wasisname rant ! wow First nations only drinking and sniffing gas ?

What a beauty !
 

sinbad

Member
Dec 11, 2004
359
17
18
Montreal
JH Fan,

Apologies for the insult. It's not really my style. With everyone using anonymous "handles" it's easy to forget there's a real person at the other end. Sorry, I'll try to be more careful in future. sinbad


Ha ha ! You didn't see it coming did ya ?

Depressed Sinbad ?
You think I expect anything from the NDP ?
To defend Quebec's interests in Ottawa ?
You got to be kidding !

You think it's only a matter of French vs. English or federalism vs separatism ?

What is clear.. from you guys is the lack of interest and respect towards First Nations !
And you have Techman whining all about the immigrants being forced into french schools...
Poor Babies ! you've come to Canada and now you are forced to learn french ! that is so unfair !
Here...here ! Don't cry ! Here's my thumb to suck on it !

BTW I like your insult Sinbad ! An illiterate fool :)
 

Royal

Out of Order
Jun 25, 2010
140
9
18
Montreal
JH, wasisname is right though, it's a not a question of racism, it's not a generalisation either... It's factual. the First Nations are a dying people and "generally" they have a lot of trouble adapting to our Western mode of living. I'm not being racist by saying this, I'm being a factist, same way a black person usually has curlier hair than me, darker skin, and let's not talk about the big package down there. That's not racist, it's a fact-ist view of things. You stipulate things for what they are.

And honestly, why should the rest of Canada care about First Nations and Quebec... No, Quebec needs to assert itself, either 'in' federalism, or 'out' of federalism. But, when Quebecers tried to assert themselves "IN" federalism with the lake Meech accord (Hello, a Quebecer came up with the accord: Mulroney [but with the help of the Premier of Ontario David Peterson ofcourse]) they were thwarted by a Cree and a bunch of Scarecrow Trudeauists. Must I remind you that Canada was willing to accept this accord. It isn't Canada who voted against it, but these two-three people who managed to stop it in its tracks with threats, attacks on Mulroney and his government, and scarecrows yes (I'll call it scarecrow feathers haha): (1) one of the people who stood in it's path is a Cree Canadian by the name of Elijah Harper who sought to take advantage of the situation in Manitoba; (2) the (2-3) others are Clyde Wells and McKenna who were Pro-Trudeauists, hence anti-Mulroney, and with Trudeau himself waving scare-crows about the Balkanisation of Canada and other terrifying theories about the destruction of the Constitution forced the Meech's fall to an early grave. But if you look at the Canadians opinion overall, they were pretty much for it I'd say.

So in the end, the fall of Meech was because of Trudeauists, and a Cree.

I don't think anyone here is anti-first nation, we're just fed-up to hear about their complaints, same way we're fed up to hear about Quebec's complaints, and I'm a Quebecer by the way... See, I even know that Quebec is so fed up with it's old provincial political parties that with Legault joining the ADQ, the ADQ will win the next election. It will be a funny picture. Quebec voted in majority towards the left federally, but will vote in majority towards the right provincially. LOL. (Sinbad is right, it's a classic protest vote: They didn't trust Harper, didn't life Ignatieff, Wouldn't vote for a dumb bitch like May, had enough of Duceppe's screeching, so there was only one man who seemed charismatic, but close enough to the Bloc leftist beliefs to be a viable anti-Harper option federally: the NDP.)

Quebec will stay in the federal system in the end, and it will prevail towards certain changed to keep it's history and heritage alive, that is also a fact.

But since we're talking about first nations, the reason there's no thought associated towards them is because they're not part of the two founding nations of Canada historically; they're a conquered people. So was Quebec, but at least Quebec has a historical constitutional claim, or some form of a historical interpretation of that claim that makes it malleable and argumentative towards a cause. After all, they retained their own laws, their own religion, their own culture and were permitted to have a role in the building of this country.

Something which the Amerindians did not have, with the exception of Riel (who got strung by the neck for High Treason, and who by amerindian standards is not even an Indian at all). Indians were considered a savage people that were colonized and decimated. It's a sad fate, and it's an irreversible one... very sad fate. After all, their religion was taken away (since Christianity was forced upon them), they retain some of their own laws but the laws of Canada prime over theirs anyways, and their culture is a ghost of what it was in the past, they are ultimately corrupted by our own Western culture. Very sad fate.... very very sad. What they get now (as wasisname pointed out) is thanks to their ancestral rights given to them by various treaties with the Colonizers (us) and eventually by the Constitution, but it's all been done for pity's sake and nothing else. In return, they get many more rights and privileges than any other people in this Country, and those are good privileges.. but as such, I fail to see their purpose in this discussion about Quebec. If the indians have claims to make, let them make them on their own without dirtying the Quebec issue. The Quebec issue is only about Quebec and should only be addressed in that scope.
 
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gugu

Active Member
Feb 11, 2009
1,741
17
38
But since we're talking about first nations, the reason there's no thought associated towards them is because they're not part of the two founding nations of Canada historically; they're a conquered people. So was Quebec, but at least Quebec has a historical constitutional claim, or some form of a historical interpretation of that claim that makes it malleable and argumentative towards a cause. After all, they retained their own laws, their own religion, their own culture and were permitted to have a role in the building of this country.
Bold added.

Isn’t that the case for Aboriginal people? Hasn’t that been stated in the Royal Proclamation of 1763? Hasn’t it been confirmed by the Calder decision in 1973, accepted in the 1981 Constitutional Act and confirmed in a series of Supreme Court decisions, most notably Sparrow (1990)? I understand your frustration about the Meech Lake Accord but it is not a reason to rewrite history and say the Aboriginals are a conquered people. Land title is unresolved in large parts of Canada, including all of Québec territory, most of BC, Yukon and Nunvut. Aboriginal rights are substantial. The governments of Canada and private interests have the obligation, imposed by the Supreme Court, to reach agreements with Aboriginal people when occupying territories and extracting resources on territories where Aboriginal people detain rights. That is not exactly my definition of a conquered people.

J’imagine que tu parles français, Royal. Je ne peux pas trop t’en vouloir de dire que les autochtones sont un peuple conquis. C’est ce que les livres d’histoire nous apprenaient. Je me permets de te suggérer un texte très bien fait et très accessible sur ce sujet http://www.autochtones.gouv.qc.ca/p.../publications/mythes-realites-autochtones.pdf.
 
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