He should have made the trades today. I would not be gambling that this winning streak will continue like some of these guys are.
Go Habs Go!
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That isn’t the correct question to be asking. Bergevin should not be looking first at what young players he wants. He should first look at who desperately needs what the Habs have, and then go from there. When you look to swap a bad contract with another team, you look first at the bad contract for bad contract scenario where you take on a lesser bad contract, eat the one you have and get some players. Example: the much discussed Ellsbury for Samardjzia deal that never happened but would have been a swap of two of the worst contracts in baseball. The second scenario is need of trade partner. Edmonton obviously needs a goalie and while they don’t have all the resources to take on the Price contract, you help incentivize them by eating some of it. In return you identify what players they have that you need who are young and cheap and have potential to fill a need. This is what the mindset should be. Be mindful that player values and contract values fluctuate like the stock market and once a guy gets hurt or begins to suck or pout he loses value.
I agree with what you said EB but the problem is that you're always using baseball moves as a comparison, which confuses other posters and hurts the point your trying to make. I'll use the moves the Maple Leafs made in the past which led them to what they are today: one of the best teams in hockey.
First when new management took over they gave away Phil Kessel and Dion Phaneuf because of their big long-term contracts. Similar to a degree to Shea Weber and Carey Price's tremendously big and long contracts. Weber and Price's contracts are gigantic compared to Kessel and Phaneuf's, but the point i'm trying to make is that Kessel and Phaneuf's were the two biggest contracts on the Leafs at the time, just like Weber and Price's are at the current time on the Habs team.
Contracts such as these are salary cap killers and hurt the team since money that could be used to fill up roster spots with quality players is used up to pay those big long-term contracts. There are exceptions, of course. Pittsburgh wouldn't be who they are without Sidney Crosby and Evgeny Malkin and the Capitals wouldn't be who they are without Alex Ovechkin. Same thing with the Oilers and young Connor McDavid.
But Toronto didn't see a future with the likes of Kessel and Phaneuf's contracts eating up a large portion of its salary cap for years to come. That's why they literally gave them away in order to clear up cap space and start building for the future. Getting rid of their two superstars also made the team considerably weaker which would be good in the long run since it would put them near the bottom of the standings. Remember that first season after Kessel and Phaneuf were gone? They could barely score any goals! The top scorer on the team was P.A. Parenteau, whose contract was still being paid by the Habs at the time. They sucked!!! Goalie Jonathan Bernier was a sieve and the defence wasn't very good either. It led them to finish near the bottom of the standings and it eventually led to them drafting the likes of Mitchell Marner and then Auston Matthews. They had previously drafted William Nylander.
But all of this never would have become possible unless they unloaded the big contracts of Kessel and Phaneuf which permitted them to finish at the bottom of the standings, clear up some much-needed cap space and start all over. They already had a foundation of promising young players to build around: James Van Riemsdyk, Morgan Rielly, Jake Gardner and Nazem Kadri. William Nylander had just been drafted and if the team hopefully ended up at the bottom of the standings it would give them the opportunity to draft some top 5 talent, which they did in Marner and Matthews. And with all the cap money now available to them they were able to sign a promising young goalie in Frederik Andersen. What did they do with the money they had left? They re-signed young promising players such as Kadri, Gardiner and Rielly to team-friendly longterm contracts. It also allowed them to lure several very promising European free agents and last year they re-signed Nikita Zaitsev to a longterm deal.
But that's what an organization has to do to become a contender: be willing to make the sacrifice. But seeing how habs fans and the local media have reacted to the recent Habs mini-streak has only shown me that they will never accept a full rebuild like many of today's contending teams have went through over the years. So for the next few years it'll be the same story again and again: lack of scoring, poor defence, an aging injury-prone highly-paid superstar goalie with 8 more years left to go on his contract and an aging solid defenceman on the blue line with a huge long-term contract which will last until 2026.
When the team will continue to struggle fans and media will demand changes and once again the coach and likely the general manager will be axed. That coach will get replaced by another french-speaking head coach and it wouldn't surprise me if that coach has coached the Habs in the past. And then the fans and media will call for a full rebuild like other successful teams have done in the past. And as soon as the Habs' slump comes to an end all will be good and forgotten again...and again...and again.
First when new management took over they gave away Phil Kessel and Dion Phaneuf because of their big long-term contracts. Similar to a degree to Shea Weber and Carey Price's tremendously big and long contracts. Weber and Price's contracts are gigantic compared to Kessel and Phaneuf's, but the point i'm trying to make is that Kessel and Phaneuf's were the two biggest contracts on the Leafs at the time, just like Weber and Price's are at the current time on the Habs team.
Contracts such as these are salary cap killers and hurt the team since money that could be used to fill up roster spots with quality players is used up to pay those big long-term contracts. There are exceptions, of course. Pittsburgh wouldn't be who they are without Sidney Crosby and Evgeny Malkin and the Capitals wouldn't be who they are without Alex Ovechkin. Same thing with the Oilers and young Connor McDavid.
But Toronto didn't see a future with the likes of Kessel and Phaneuf's contracts eating up a large portion of its salary cap for years to come. That's why they literally gave them away in order to clear up cap space and start building for the future. Getting rid of their two superstars also made the team considerably weaker which would be good in the long run since it would put them near the bottom of the standings. Remember that first season after Kessel and Phaneuf were gone? They could barely score any goals! The top scorer on the team was P.A. Parenteau, whose contract was still being paid by the Habs at the time. They sucked!!! Goalie Jonathan Bernier was a sieve and the defence wasn't very good either. It led them to finish near the bottom of the standings and it eventually led to them drafting the likes of Mitchell Marner and then Auston Matthews. They had previously drafted William Nylander.
But all of this never would have become possible unless they unloaded the big contracts of Kessel and Phaneuf which permitted them to finish at the bottom of the standings, clear up some much-needed cap space and start all over. They already had a foundation of promising young players to build around: James Van Riemsdyk, Morgan Rielly, Jake Gardner and Nazem Kadri. William Nylander had just been drafted and if the team hopefully ended up at the bottom of the standings it would give them the opportunity to draft some top 5 talent, which they did in Marner and Matthews. And with all the cap money now available to them they were able to sign a promising young goalie in Frederik Andersen. What did they do with the money they had left? They re-signed young promising players such as Kadri, Gardiner and Rielly to team-friendly longterm contracts. It also allowed them to lure several very promising European free agents and last year they re-signed Nikita Zaitsev to a longterm deal.
But that's what an organization has to do to become a contender: be willing to make the sacrifice. But seeing how habs fans and the local media have reacted to the recent Habs mini-streak has only shown me that they will never accept a full rebuild like many of today's contending teams have went through over the years. So for the next few years it'll be the same story again and again: lack of scoring, poor defence, an aging injury-prone highly-paid superstar goalie with 8 more years left to go on his contract and an aging solid defenceman on the blue line with a huge long-term contract which will last until 2026.
When the team will continue to struggle fans and media will demand changes and once again the coach and likely the general manager will be axed. That coach will get replaced by another french-speaking head coach and it wouldn't surprise me if that coach has coached the Habs in the past. And then the fans and media will call for a full rebuild like other successful teams have done in the past. And as soon as the Habs' slump comes to an end all will be good and forgotten again...and again...and again.
The Leafs engaged in a strategy of tanking which you have nicely provided the details on. It’s true that the salary cap ramifications make bad contracts a tougher swallow in hockey than in baseball but sometimes you have to do it before it’s too late. That’s what the Leafs did and it’s a path the Habs should follow if they want to compete for a Cup in the next 10 years instead of another 10 years like the last 10 years. It does require short term major suckitude, and you have to figure out how to sell that to fans and media but there are many blueprints on how to do that. I like the Yankees blueprint best - NEVER use words like “rebuild” and deny that is what you are doing and insist the team is going to compete even as you go with younger inexperienced players. If the young guys play well and show potential fans will buy it and get enthused. I think Leafs used different language but they got very good young players and the fans saw that there is a good future. It’s not that hard to pull off and the suckitude doesn’t have to be for long.
One more thing the Leafs did to get rid of a bad contract....
They traded away David Clarkson's bad and unproductive contract to the Columbus Blue Jackets for Nathan Horton, a player who was injured and never expected to play professional hockey again. By acquiring Horton they were able to put him on long-term injured reserve, meaning his contract wouldn't count on the team's salary cap. They did the same thing with Stephane Robidas & Joffrey Lupul's contracts. All bad contracts that wealthier teams such as the Leafs can do away with if they want to remain competitive. It's not that difficult for the wealthier teams (like the Leafs and Habs) to do: trade away a bad active contract and take back a non-active player's contract in order to make cap space. It's all legal, other teams have done it and continue to do.
The Habs need to get creative in order to become contenders again. This means moving out big cap-eating contracts. The team's fortunes won't improve with magic. Team management has to have the guts to make the big moves required to make this team a contender again!
They traded away David Clarkson's bad and unproductive contract to the Columbus Blue Jackets for Nathan Horton, a player who was injured and never expected to play professional hockey again. By acquiring Horton they were able to put him on long-term injured reserve, meaning his contract wouldn't count on the team's salary cap. They did the same thing with Stephane Robidas & Joffrey Lupul's contracts. All bad contracts that wealthier teams such as the Leafs can do away with if they want to remain competitive. It's not that difficult for the wealthier teams (like the Leafs and Habs) to do: trade away a bad active contract and take back a non-active player's contract in order to make cap space. It's all legal, other teams have done it and continue to do.
The Habs need to get creative in order to become contenders again. This means moving out big cap-eating contracts. The team's fortunes won't improve with magic. Team management has to have the guts to make the big moves required to make this team a contender again!
This is what I have been saying again and again but these guys don’t want to listen to it. They live in a fantasy world in which they believe that Price will stay healthy, play all games, get red hot and singlehandedly deliver a Stanley Cup to them! Well history has taught that it has not come close to happening in the past 10 years! And the reason why is that the rest of the guys in the team are not the second coming of Guy Lafleur, Bob Gainey, Steve Shutt, Larry Robinson and Jacques Lemaire. They don’t have this caliber of player. They have a bunch of undersized grinders and a couple of underachievers with Drouin and Galchenyuk. They are not going to win anything with this team. Even if they sneak into playoffs they are out in the first round. So I say get creative. Either you want to win or you don’t want to win. The current state of affairs is not moving the team towards legit Cup contention so shake it up. And stop with fantasy unless you are admitting being happy with a team that is on the playoff bubble every year with no serious threat of deep advancement in the playoffs.
You guys should be GMs you got it all figured out, did you co-write Money Ball?
Tell us more...
Tell us more...
Price is good, would probably play better on a different team, the media in Montreal is brutal so I expect some poor playing with Price. If I was trashed by the media as they do to any sporta team that loses a few gamea I may think fuck you and not be on my game. I would have price in Edmonton in a heartbeat.
I think Doc already said all there is to be said. The blueprints are out there on how to quickly build championship calibre teams, and why being saddled with bad contracts is very dangerous in the salary capped league. However teams are not without ways to rid themselves of such contracts and Doc gave specific examples of legal, creative ways to do it. It's not a question of whether these things can be done, it is a questions of whether those who are making the decisions have the guts to do them. Because a short term tanking strategy requires sacrifice and putting the long term good ahead of all else. And it has to be sold, or perhaps marketed, to ownership, fans, and even players themselves, each with a different speech. You need the right person to do it and the question is, is Bergevin the right guy for the execution of that strategy?
Believe me, you're not the first one to tell me this. Even my very best friends have often told me that i'd be a great NHL GM. But to be an NHL GM you usually need great contacts and have previously been involved with the NHL in some capacity. Like many other pro leagues the NHL is an old boys club. That's why you wind up with so much incompetence in coaching and management. Peopel give jobs to their friends who are often totally unqualified or ready for the jobs been given to them. Life ain't fair.
Been teaching that to my kids since they can speak!
A green plant could sometime be a good gm as the best move could be the one you dont do
Doc,
I still think you can get a job as assistant to Bergevin. If so you can explain all the above to him and how he should proceed. Such employment would be beneficial to the team and to these beleaguered Habs fans.
I still think you can get a job as assistant to Bergevin. If so you can explain all the above to him and how he should proceed. Such employment would be beneficial to the team and to these beleaguered Habs fans.
Not this time. Bergevin could learn a bit from his recent posts. We have encouraged Doc to move to Toronto or Montreal and seek a position with the front offices of Leafs/Habs. It’s up to him to decide if he wants to pursue that career path.
Bingo!
These guys are hysterical, I don't know if it Is the years of paying for sex and relationships that made them so dellusional, but they are just amaising they should both replace Lemaire and Lamorello for the Leafs, they know more than anybody.
They take themself way too seriously.
We are on an escort revue board and this thread has maybe six participants.
Nobody cares about anybodies opinions here ( including mine.,.)
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