Go Habs Go!

[EagerBeaver]

Without denying that Pascal Vincent is the most qualified person in the organization, I think that if Kent Hugues fires MSL tomorrow and replaces him with coach Vincent, it will send the message to his boss that, he’s in panic mode and out of solution. This would automatically place him at the top of the list of "who’s going out next".

If that were true GMs across the NHL would be afraid to fire coaches. History teaches the opposite is true: that firing the coach scapegoats a lower level employee for the failures of the entire organization, and thus deflects blame away from the front office for their failed personnel moves and decisions. This scapegoating process works effectively not only in the NHL, but in many industries. It's a well accepted method of doing business in the NHL, NFL, MLB and NBA.

Besides that, the team is now set and it is the coach's job to "find solutions." Changing line combinations and defensive pairings, allotment of ice time and motivating his players is the coach's job.

I think MSL should watch his neck very carefully because a blade could be coming out of nowhere to cut it and separate head from body.

 

[EagerBeaver]

Without denying that Pascal Vincent is the most qualified person in the organization, I think that if Kent Hugues fires MSL tomorrow and replaces him with coach Vincent, it will send the message to his boss that, he’s in panic mode and out of solution. This would automatically place him at the top of the list of "who’s going out next".

I think you need to understand better how GM-Coach dynamics work. Watch the movie Draft Day, in which Kevin Costner plays the GM of a fictitious losing football team who works with a former Super Bowl winning coach, played by Denis Leary, to turn the team around. There is a tension between coach and GM that is real and palpable. The Coach's job is to win with the players the GM gives him. Please watch how that message is conveyed in this scene:

 

[Cap'tain Fantastic]

History teaches the opposite is true: that firing the coach scapegoats a lower level employee for the failures of the entire organization, and thus deflects blame away from the front office for their failed personnel moves and decisions.

This is partly true, as a GM in the NHL, you are, generally, allowed a few strikes when it comes to replacing your head coach, before the heat starts burning your own ass.

But, imo, the situation here, with the new management, has a few specific dynamics that makes it a bit particular. First, our GM is not only inexperienced at this new job, but he went straight from representing the players to managing a team. That, in itself, was a peculiar move from Jeff Gorton.

From the first day I felt like this could lead to conflictual situations. Hugues was well known in the league to fiercely defend and protect his clients I.e. the players. Is it a surprise that he decided to hire , not only a player to be the head coach, but one that has zero experience as such? He also went to hire Vinnie Lecavalier as consultant, adding to the other 6-7 ex- players who are also in the organization.

How comfortable will this guy be when, facing drastic decisions such as firing some of his country club’s men? Not sure about that one.

As for GMs in other sports, I don’t have any references, I don’t watch them. In terms of sports, beside hockey, I only have interest in the Vendée Globe and, sometimes, professional European football leagues (soccer). Btw, if someone can explain why American football is actually called football, I would be curious to hear it.,

 

[EagerBeaver]

Btw, if someone can explain why American football is actually called football, I would be curious to hear it.,

The answer is on the pro football HOF website:

Why Is The Game Called Football | Pro Football Hall of Fame | Pro Football Hall of Fame

The name "football" can be traced back to two European cousins, soccer and rugby. The two sports combined and became the game of football we all love. Learn more today!

www.profootballhof.com

 

[ceramon]

any upcoming games this month?

 

[EagerBeaver]

From the first day I felt like this could lead to conflictual situations. Hugues was well known in the league to fiercely defend and protect his clients I.e. the players. Is it a surprise that he decided to hire , not only a player to be the head coach, but one that has zero experience as such? He also went to hire Vinnie Lecavalier as consultant, adding to the other 6-7 ex- players who are also in the organization.

How comfortable will this guy be when, facing drastic decisions such as firing some of his country club’s men? Not sure about that one.

As for GMs in other sports, I don’t have any references,

There is a recent similar precedent of a player-agent suddenly and inexplicably being made the GM of a North American Sports Team. In 2018, the New York Mets of MLB hired Brodie Van Weghenen, a player agent for the Mets' best pitcher at the time, Jacob deGrom, to be their new GM. It was, at that time, completely unprecedented.. If you are wondering how things turned out for Brodie, the answer is not well. He last exactly 2 years, in which he developed a reputation for making bad trades and bad free agent signings. In 2020 when the Mets were purchased by new owner Steve Cohen, Brodie was quickly fired. He likely would have been fired anyway by the old owners. He is no longer in MLB, either as a player agent or GM. He now works as head of business development for Jay Z's talent agency.

Regarding Hughes, ultimately the "Country Club" he created will lose its cache and privileges when the team goes down the drain. I do understand that he is probably more likely to give a longer rope to MSL than other GMs might, but eventually ownership will demand from him to make changes, and his hands will be tied. I think ultimately if the losses continue to mount, he will be told, as many GMs were before him, "fire the coach, or you will be fired." I cannot think of any GMs whose chose to be fired, although current U of Tennessee basketball coach Rick Barnes, when he coached U of Texas, was told by the AD to fire his assistant coaches or he would be fired. He refused, was immediately fired, and then was hired by the University of Tennessee. The U of Texas has gone through several coaches since Barnes was fired, and their team has not been as good as when he was their coach. I think when he stood up for his assistant coaches, many coaches nationally saw him as a heroic figure.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Without denying that Pascal Vincent is the most qualified person in the organization, I think that if Kent Hugues fires MSL tomorrow and replaces him with coach Vincent, it will send the message to his boss that, he’s in panic mode and out of solution. This would automatically place him at the top of the list of "who’s going out next".

I really doubt Kent Hughes would ever fire his buddy MSL. I think the most likely scenario would be MSL resigning stating personal & family reasons which would be an entirely valid reason considering his family never agreed to follow him to Mtl. Being away from your spouse from Sept-May isn’t exactly great on any marriage. I’m also certain he misses not seeing his children regularly & following their collegiate hockey careers. And the constant pressure to win in Mtl must be unbearable at times. He’s been lucky for two years but now the fans & media are starting to question (with reason) his competency.

The key are the players. Do they still believe in him? Do they believe in his complicated system which many are saying is mostly seen in college hockey & rarely in the pro game? Do they still have respect for him as an NHL coach or are they now doubting his competency considering his gross lack of experience coaching at an elite level? Howmdo they feel when call-ups from Laval brag about how good a coach Pascal Vimcent is when they’re supposedly using the same man-to-man hybrid system MSL uses in Mtl? Personally i don’t believe the coaching staff has lost the players’ trust again but it will happen of the losing streak continues. It’s in the players’ DNA that they hate to lose & we’ve often seen examples in the past that losing can become a culture & players can get used to it, which is the absolute worse thing that could happen to young players in development.

Let me make a prediction: odds are 50/50 that Martin St-Louis will finish the season as the coach of the Mtl Canadiens.

 

[Cap'tain Fantastic]

And the constant pressure to win in Mtl must be unbearable at times. He’s been lucky for two years but now the fans & media are starting to question (with reason) his competency.

He hasn’t feel half of what it can be, because him and his bosses made it clear that the first years would be pretty bumpy. For this season, at the team golf tournament, the different levels of management has expressed their expectations for the 2024-2025 season. Let’s look back at these statements:

Jeff Molson said he was confident to see some good improvements.

Gorton and Hugues stated that they were seeing the team being part of the "mix", i.e. battling for the last spots for the playoffs. Not necessarily making the playoffs.

Martin Saint-Louis, being asked several times, refused to use the term "being in the mix", he said that this year he was focusing on results. His point seemed more in line with the owner than with his direct bosses.

So clearly, if someone should be starting to feel pressured, it is more likely to be Gorton and Hugues, but they hold the better end of the stick, as opposed to the coach. And they don’t have to speak to the media every single day.

MSL is starting to show some signs of exasperation in post game interviews but I think it’s half directed towards the media’s expectations and questions. He speaks as someone who still believes that his team will starts to win soon and be a tough team to beat. In the end, he could resign and say that he never promised that his team would make the playoffs and he would be fuckin’ right to say so.

 

[EagerBeaver]

And the constant pressure to win in Mtl must be unbearable at times.

It's no greater than what Aaron Boone faces as manager of the NY Yankees, and I can guarantee everyone in this thread Boone has been second guessed 10 times more aggressively in his pressers and for many more years than MSL has.

 

[Doc Holliday]

It's no greater than what Aaron Boone faces as manager of the NY Yankees, and I can guarantee everyone in this thread Boone has been second guessed 10 times more aggressively in his pressers and for many more years than MSL has.

That’s like comparing apples & oranges. NYC has many major professional sports teams. They have the Yankees, Mets, Knicks, Mets, Jets, Giants, Rangers & Islanders. As for the Yankees it’s true that the manager often is under pressure. But let’s face it: the Mets are a better team & the Yankees were very lucky to advance in the playoffs. They were fortunate that they got the inferior matchups throughout the playoffs. Plus people under 40 don’t really give a crap about baseball. Ten years from now it likely will be a dying sport with most stadiums half-full. But that’s another story & i don’t want to go off-topic.

The thing is that Montreal is a much smaller city than the likes of NYC & Toronto & they are a one major professional sport city. They only have the Habs. Nothing else that matters as far as major professional sports go. People of all ages from age 4 to age 99 follow hockey in Quebec & the majority of them cheer for the Habs. They are not simply Montreal’s team: they are the entire province of Quebec’s team. That’s why the pressure to win in this market is greater than any other market on the entire planet!

 

[Doc Holliday]

So clearly, if someone should be starting to feel pressured, it is more likely to be Gorton and Hugues, but they hold the better end of the stick, as opposed to the coach. And they don’t have to speak to the media every single day.

MSL is starting to show some signs of exasperation in post game interviews but I think it’s half directed towards the media’s expectations and questions. He speaks as someone who still believes that his team will starts to win soon and be a tough team to beat. In the end, he could resign and say that he never promised that his team would make the playoffs and he would be fuckin’ right to say so.

All very valid points & i totally agree with your observations. The current fate of the Habs is all on Hughes & Gorton because they are the ones responsible for the players on the current roster & they are the ones responsible for handing the team over to a guy with zero professional coaching experience who’s highest level of coaching was at the bantam level. When you think about it this was a totally ridiculous move! It would have been ridiculous evennif the team would have been the Kraken, the Ducks or the Sharks! This is the NHL…the best hockey league on the planet! And a guy with no experience was asked to take over the most prestigious hockey organization in the entire world? WTF? This was supposed to work? Why? How? And the sacrificial lamb is to blame for a grossly incompetent decision by upper management? Ridiculous!

By the way i’m not sure Kent Hughes would ever have been GM had Jeff Gorton spoken french. He was hired under the condition that he hire a GM who also spoke french. And it’s no big secret that Gorton has always enjoyed simply being a GM. That’s why when his good friend & former boss John Davidson got the president’s job in Columbus there were rumours that he’d get Jeff Gorton to be his GM. However i knew this wouldn’t happen this year for the simple fact that Gorton has a contract with the Habs & the team never would have allowed him to walk away & sign with any other NHL hockey team.

To conclude the person most responsible for this debacle is the owner & team president: Geoff Molson. He hired all of these guys. The buck stops with him. By the way on a side note i was never in favor of the club owner putting himself in charge of the hockey organization. He took over from the highly respected Pierre Boivin after he purchased the team. This was the first time ever that the club’s owner put himself in charge of the hockey team’s operation. For example he holds the same title as Brendan Shanahan in Toronto. But hey, it’s his hockey team after all & he can do as he pleases with it. But maybe…just maybe…had the team had a Ronald Corey or Pierre Boivin type in charge instead the team wouldn’t be in this position right now.

 

[EagerBeaver]

As for the Yankees it’s true that the manager often is under pressure.

MSL has never faced pressure like Boone in his pressers. Has MSL ever been asked if he thought a playoff series was "in the bag"? Boone actually faced this question during the Cleveland series- see 3:59 mark of video. How would MSL handle this same question?

 

[Cap'tain Fantastic]

Has MSL ever been asked if he thought a playoff series was "in the bag"?

Of course not, the entire management had already stated that a playoff spot was not on the horizon yet. But you can bet that next year the hordes of journalists will be much more incisive in their questions and criticisms, no matter who the coach will be at that moment.

 

[Doc Holliday]

An enormous amount of noise this morning about the state of the habs this morning on radio & on the podcasts. Complaints of a serious lack of intensity in Saturday’s game. Talk about Nylander using the entire habs team as pylons in his brilliant end to end rush on which he scored. David Savard looking like a coward when he refused to drop the gloves against Domi after cross checking him several times. Arber Xehkaj absolutely uninterested in doing something (like a fight) to wake the team up & try to change the momentum. MSL’s comments after the game making some wonder on which planet he resides. And on & on. Now I’m starting to wonder if MSM will still be the coach after Xmas. The habs are now dead-last in the NHL after management & ownership promised they’d be in the mix for a possible playoffs spot. You know what? After watching Saturday’s game i have come to the conclusion that MSL has lost the team. The players no longer believe in him.

 

[EagerBeaver]

Talk about Nylander using the entire habs team as pylons in his brilliant end to end rush on which he scored.

Nylander dances through multiple Canadiens for beauty end-to-end goal

www.sportsnet.ca

 

[EagerBeaver]

The habs are now dead-last in the NHL

Not only dead last in points. Dead last in goal differential, -23.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Hearing from my sources that Gerard Gallant will be hired as assistant coach to help MSL after they met in Toronto on Saturday afternoon. If it happens this is a great hiring!

 

[gaby]

Agree....je l'ai toujours aimé....sait bien motiver ses jeunes joueurs.....yep.....would b a great news.

 

[EagerBeaver]

Hearing from my sources that Gerard Gallant will be hired as assistant coach to help MSL after they met in Toronto on Saturday afternoon. If it happens this is a great hiring!

Gallant should be head coach and MSL the assistant!

 

[Doc Holliday]

Gallant should be head coach and MSL the assistant!

No doubt. But Gallant doesn’t speak french. Unfortunately Gerry Gallant will never be the head coach for the Habs. And that’s probably why MSL would agree to hire him as his assistant head coach. He’s aware he’ll never have a chance at taking his job away from him.