Imagine...........Things that could have been if seperation did not fuck us all up!

[Techman]

Why wasn't this one since it's filled with the same distorsions, exaggerations and revisionist history?

Can you give me some examples of this distortion and revisionist history that has been posted? Other than this one:

It is true that Montreal's economic situation was severely sabotaged by Anglo-Canadian resentment over French power in general and the 1976 PQ victory in particular. One need only think of Sun Life Assurance moving out under Galt's leadership.

I'm fully aware that the separatist movement is largely responsible for shaping our cultural identity, for getting us out of our second class citizen status and for giving us the life and opportunities we have today

.

It's a pretty sad thing that the French community wasn't strong enough to stand up and achieve things for themselves and had to rely on separatists to do it. Actually it's more than sad, it's embarassing.

Then practice what you preach.
Bill 101 has been in force since 1977, get on with it, get a fucking life.

For one thing, 1977 isn't exactly ancient history and the language laws are still in force today. Another thing is that I am not looking for revenge on anyone. I would like to see everyone be treated the same and have equal rights under the law. To be treated like a second class citizen is one thing, to have it enshrined in law is something else altogether.

I have stated it before and I'll do it again...I have no problem with laws to promote and preserve the French language in Quebec. I do have a problem when the promotion and protection is used as an excuse to attack and eradicate the English language or any other. And in case you haven't noticed, it hasn't achieved, and will never achieve, that end.

Oh yeah...I also have a problem with people who try to destroy my country. I'm funny that way.

 

[J. Peterman]

Game over for the old hard core seperatist!

Back 10 to 15 years ago, I often got disrespect from poor uneducated seperatist type lower classes of Montreal. They would would disrespect me just because I am an anglo. I got the CHRIST de TABERNAC and the MAUDIT BLOKE comments, right in front of me. Quebec was for the Francaphones and no one else had the right to be here, that was the thinking at the time. It was quite acceptable for them to do this in front of their friends.
People have come to the realization that they have to work and exist in a word economy. The world has changed to the point where there is no room for the hard core independantist. There are a few groups left where they meet from time to time and cry in their MOLSONS. ( or maybe their MAUDIT beer )

 

[pookiebear]

I think that the diversity of two languages in Canada is what make your country special. I think that what is being done now i.e in Quebec french first then english and B.C english then french is a good compromise. Learning multiple languages is a plus and the country, any country, should pursuit this goal. By knowing more languages it make society a better place for everyone to communicate, the latter or the lack of is what started many wars. I understand that in the past the Quebecois have been mistreated by their English countryman, I hope that everything is put aside and Canada can recognize their french heritage as much as their english heritage. When one forget one heritage one will fail to exist. The history of the individual is what make you unique. Canadians have their own misfortune of mistreatement of it's citizen, but who hasnt? In learning from the past we hope that we can grow as societies, countries and humanity. We need to learn to treat each other better so that as society we can all grow and prosper. In America we had our own civil war and we came out of it much stronger. We are as diversify in thinking in every region and have many dialect in the U.S but we realized that the betterment of our country will only exist if we stand united and overcome our differences. I understand that the some Quebecois want an " independence" province but when will it stop. Is it then fair to have the "native Canadian" then lay claim that they were here before the english and the french and that they should have their land back? Canada was forge through wars and hardship in the last 300 years it is the product of French and English. Like most of us we have many ethnics and cultural back ground to elimate any of those would make one less than who one is today. To divide Canada would weaken the country for both parties. It is time that my Anglo and french friends made admend and move forward for the better of Canada. I have always admire Canada for her forward thinking and contribution to the world. Everyone speaks of how much the U.S do this and that but looking back in history Canadians have done her share of hard work and dying when they dont have to. For this I'm forever grateful and if Canada is ever threaten I would be the first to defend her.

 

[Techman]

Funny tecman to see your thinking some are great and others not at all....


Well tecman i`m affraid that you will have some problem with me.

"vive le Quebec libre".

You forgot the other favorite chant of separatists... "le Quebec pour Quebecois"

 

[JustBob]

Can you give me some examples of this distortion and revisionist history that has been posted?

Too many to list but your post # 21 for example, is filled with exaggerations and distorsions.

It's a pretty sad thing that the French community wasn't strong enough to stand up and achieve things for themselves and had to rely on separatists to do it. Actually it's more than sad, it's embarassing.

Only a total lack of historical knowledge can lead to such an innane statement. What did you expect French Canadians to do exactly when, as second class citizens, they were systematically denied opportunities? Say please? Let's see, I know exactly what your reply is going to be. Something like: they should have stopped feeling inferior (as if that was just a "feeling" and not part of an historical reality...), gotten off their asses and worked hard! If I didn't know any better, I'd think I was talking to some hardline American conservative who's got the same old overly simplistic solution for every social problem, aka the fallacy (for most people) of the American Dream...

And to use your logic, perhaps the english speaking quebecers should have stood up for their rights instead of whining, playing the opressed card, and leaving...

 

[Ben Dover]

So in English one version says:

"Quebec for Quebecois" and the other says "Quebec for Quebecois"...

Thanks...

BD

 

[Cosmo]

Um... it is "Le Québec aux Québécois" - even I know this.

But every citizen of Québec is Québecois,french,english,italian,jews,ect...

 

[Techman]

jhg, you are quite correct. I wrote that quickly as I was heading out of the office. My apologies for incorrectly quoting a racist slogan.

And to use your logic, perhaps the english speaking quebecers should have stood up for their rights instead of whining, playing the opressed card, and leaving...

There's a difference between being treated like second class citizens and having it put into law that you are second class citizens. And by the way, Anglos have fought back, going as far as the Supreme court of Canada and the United Nations in fact.

And you're right about my post 21. It is filled with exaggerations and distortions. They are in the posts I quoted.

 

[b_cup_lover]

Hat's off to johnhenrygalt!

My apologies for incorrectly quoting a racist slogan.

Techman!

Don't you ever f***ing stop man!

Race as to do with color of skin, not etnicity.
And as Cosmo says anyone living in Québec is Québécois, be it French, English,Spanish,Italian,Irish.

Le Québec aux Québécois is like saying Scottland for Scottish.

Fuck Man, again move on to something better than your constant whining,

Just try to get any equivalency in rest of Canada in french, of what as an anglophone you are getting here
in Quebec.

I'll just give you a really stupid and naive example:
A few years back there was this boutique called "Le Garage",guess what's it called now ?!!??

"Garage"

I know it's not much just a stupid little " Le " taken off in a subtle manner.

C'est comme ça qu'un peuple meurt a petit feu.

And by the way, why would it be so hard to say that French Canadians constitute a nation as much as Anglo Canadians, both
together equally ????????

And you're right about my post 21. It is filled with exaggerations and distortions. They are in the posts I quoted.

Holy Shit!!!!!!!!!!!!
I got it, I got it

Only Techman speaks the words of Wisdom!

 

[joelcairo]

Congratulations B cup lover. In your attempt at humor you got it right: in this thread only Techman DOES speak the words of wisdom. Defend French all you want - hey no problem. Fight for your rights - hey no problem. But why does defending your language and fighting for your rights involve insisting that another language be half the size of yours? Why does it involve spending fortunes on language police when business is dying, streets are giant potholes, poverty is rampant, and health care is a joke? Yeah by all means fight for your rights and fight for equality but give up the bigotry and the bullshit. As Techman has so eloquently said, the real losers in all this have been and will continue to be the pure laine Quebecois themselves who - if the separatist dream comes alive - will succeed in ghettoizing themselves more than ever before. The maudit anglais will ALWAYS have the option of leaving. By the way have you considered that maybe the anglos who haven't left actually love Quebec and maybe even love the French people as much as the pure laines themselves do? Two old sayings come to mind: 1. Be careful what you wish for because it might come true. 2. Don't cut off your nose to spite your face. Of course you'll probably say that all this is bullshit because it's easier to use force than to think. Don't forget: the FLQ thought the best way to win respect for their cause was to blow up mailboxes, kidnap James Cross and murder Pierre Laporte. Gee how could any intelligent person fail to see the logic in THAT approach.

 

[Techman]

And by the way, why would it be so hard to say that French Canadians constitute a nation as much as Anglo Canadians, both
together equally ????????

Together...equally...one nation, not two...it already exists, it's called Canada. And if certain people stopped trying to rip the fucking thing in two or more pieces maybe the damn thing would work!!!!! And I do not consider Anglo Canadians to be a 'nation'. I consider Canada to be a Nation... English, French, Italian, Chinese, Arab, Jew and everyone else who decides to come here and make it their home.

By the way, when separatists are chanting 'Le Québec aux Québécois' they sure as hell aren't including immigrants or the English in the equation. Anyone who has been to any separatist rally or celebration where this is being chanted could easily attest to that. As far as I am concerned, when they chant this slogan, the 'Québécois' they speak of are white, Catholic and French. And yes, that makes it racist.

 

[b_cup_lover]

And I do not consider Anglo Canadians to be a 'nation'. I consider Canada to be a Nation... English, French, Italian, Chinese, Arab, Jew and everyone else who decides to come here and make it their home.

Aggreed!

By the way, when separatists are chanting 'Le Québec aux Québécois' they sure as hell aren't including immigrants or the English in the equation. Anyone who has been to any separatist rally or celebration where this is being chanted could easily attest to that. As far as I am concerned, when they chant this slogan, the 'Québécois' they speak of are white, Catholic and French. And yes, that makes it racist.

Come on! that was an unnecessary comment!

But why does defending your language and fighting for your rights involve insisting that another language be half the size of yours?

Câlice que vous êtes fatiguant avec celle là!

You guys are fucking annoying with this one!

By the way have you considered that maybe the anglos who haven't left actually love Quebec and maybe even love the French people as much as the pure laines themselves do?

Did you ever see me write anything that suggest anything else?

1. Be careful what you wish for because it might come true.

Have I ever expressed my wishes here? No!, Then who the fuck are you to make an assumption on anything that I did not say?

 

[Esco!]

Anywho, I'm trying to shut up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Blah............blah....................blah...................blah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank yyou!~!!!

 

[joelcairo]

Hey B Cup Lover, thanks for your usual calm, intelligent and logical response. Good to see you've mastered the art of boldface type - the Rose Brothers would be proud of you.

 

[Fat Happy Buddha]

Some randoms thoughts on this issue:

There are eight provinces in Canada where it is improbable that you will be able to get service in French, even in federal offices. In contrast, I think Quebec does really well in providing English services.

Sun Life and all those other companies were happy to stay in Montreal for a hundred years during which the French Quebecers had lower life expectancies, lower dental health, lower average incomes, lower social standing and served as cannon fodder during two world wars. Then, when a simple thing like promotion of the French language occurs, they f**k off to Toronto. Screw 'em.

Montreal has the most vibrant cultural industry of all the Canadian provinces. While BC and Alberta's movie industry consists of renting out scenery for American made movies, Quebecers make scores of films annually and garner international awards on a regular basis. Let's face it, English Canada is largely a cultural colony of the US. At least Quebec has maintained some degree of autonomy in that regard.

Every people needs a living space where they can feel truly at home. The aboriginals need their space so that even if they go to the city, there is somewhere they can return to. History has dictated that Quebec is the homeland of the Quebecois, regardless of whether it is inside or outside Canada. As an English-speaking Canadian, I don't feel I have the right to force someone from Montreal to adapt to my language or culture. On the contrary, it is my duty to adapt to the local culture. Personally, I love doing this and it makes me feel prouder as a Canadian.

If there was a referendum tomorrow, I wouldn't vote. I've only lived in Montreal for two years and I don't yet feel that I have the right to cast a vote that would counter one cast by a Quebecer whose family had been here for hundreds of years. I might vote if I was more invested in the community or if I had children who I knew would probably stay in Quebec.

To often subterfuge is the main tactic of the federal government (mostly Liberal) for keeping Quebec in Canada. I left Canada twenty years ago and when I came back I was amazed to find the Liberal government still stalling over the constitutional question. It was plain to see that they hoped that immigration would dilute the Quebec population, thus making the question moot.

 

[isod1]

Fat Happy,

A few observations:

1) You should get bilingual service in federal offices coast to coast to coast, and you have the right to complain if you don't

2) Six provinces, not eight, do not provide service in French. These provinces have no significant franco population to justify the cost of these services, contrary to anglophones in Quebec who do form an important community.

3) Did Sun Life leave because of French or the threat of independance? If you are not sure, remember that no one left when the first language law, Bill 22, was passed. But when the PQ came to power, adios head offices! As I heard many times in Toronto: 'Ontario never had a better Premier than Levesque'.

4) I totally agree that the minority should not ask the majority to adapt to its culture. However, if we want to promote diversity and multiculturalism, which all political parties claim to, then the majority should not impose its culture on the minority. And that's what I hate in Quebec, the governement tells us which language to work in and to display on our signs, what schools to send our kids, what hours to keep our businesses opened, what colour to give our margarine, what minimum price to sell beer or gasoline for, which wines can a grocery store sell etc..... Live and let live for crying out loud! Sorry for ranting, but I am so sick and tired of the Nanny State.

5) Finally, on your vote issue. With that philosophy, you should never vote, lest your vote cancel out the vote of someone who has been here longer than you. Clifford Lincoln famously said 'Rights are Rights are Rights'. If you have the right to vote in a referendum, then you should not abstain simply bc you have only been here for a short while. Now of course voting is a right, not an obligation, but it saddens me to see why you would choose to abstain. Voting is a citizen's most precious right and it feels like you have voluntarily forfeited your own, at least in the referendum context; that's too bad.

 

[Mike Mercury]

But every citizen of Québec is Québecois,french,english,italian,jews,ect...

It is Québécois not Québecois.

But your Québec is fine.

One of the little nuances that we often overlook.

 

[Mike Mercury]

3) ... remember that no one left when the first language law, Bill 22, was passed...

But their were riots in St-Leonard.

The loss of imperialistic status of English in Quebec & in other areas of the world has been ongoing since the end of WW II.
The nationalization of the power companies and the shift away from manufacturing, chemicals & petroleum had already put pressure on english speaking jobs. The availability of skilled french people also was increasing with the increase in size of french business & engineering schools and the opening of english business & engineering schools to french students.
Now the mining & forestry companies could not fuck off with the ore & wood in their pockets so they became more french.

The Canadian population was shifting westwards anyway. There was much more room in the west when one was unilingingual english than if one was unilingual french. As for allophones they could flock west and learn english and fill the low paying jobs (seeing as the french stayed in Québec and Mexicans were not yet available).

Isod; You & Techman make a great team. If he forgets to say "no it isn't" to someone else's "yes it is" statements; you come in to creatively say "no" to another poster's "yes" and "yes" to another posters "no". Must be oestrogen mimicking compounds that we all ingest from the environment.

 

[Mike Mercury]

some of our street gangs migrated out there
to me
speaking french
is like playing the piano
its nice of you can do it
but it does not change anything in my life
im in international work and the working language is english
oliver

Your insipid sense of humour has entertained us for years.
You and Jack Mayoff must have a terrific time when you double up on your trips to Cancun and have yourselves paged on the public address.

insipid

A adjective
1 insipid, tasteless

not pleasing to the sense of taste

2 insipid, jejune

lacking interest or significance; "an insipid personality"; "jejune novel"

3 insipid

lacking significance or impact; "an insipid novel"

4 bland, flat, flavorless, flavourless, insipid, savorless, savourless, vapid

lacking taste or flavor or tang; "a bland diet"; "insipid hospital food"; "flavorless supermarket tomatoes"; "vapid beer"; "vapid tea"

 

[Mike Mercury]

Oli....
I gotta go. I gotta call it a day.
But I'll be back. I smell victory.

Now where did I put my goat?