Malarek insults Stella, SPoC, etc.

[Marie Montreal]

Around 1920 in Montreal, an American woman named Maimie was living and working in Montreal as a prostitute. With the help of some generous souls, she opened a drop-in center (near Ontario Street and Sanguinet) where prostitutes could go to chat about work in a safe space. When it was time to name the drop-in, the generous souls wanted to call it "La maison des femmes sans amie". But Maimie refused. She was a hooker herself and didnt related to the "femmes sans amie" stigma. In her memoir (Maimie's papers) she talks about a strong beautiful fun and smart woman, Stella, who frequently came to her drop-in. Eastender, you are as blind and pathetic as these people were 100yrs ago.

I have worked for public health and a couple of Centre Sud organisations myself. What you are saying is absolutly false. In a Court of Justice, we would describe your behavior and intentions as Mauvaise Foi.

Ronnie and the others, I admire your patient.

 

[naughtylady]

JS/SY = Jeunesse Soleil or Sun Youth. Trust you have heard of them.

SW going to Stella to get out of the business? Have to ask the other question. If someone wanted to become an SW would they go to Stella for a balanced presentation about risks, career opportunities, etc? Probably not.

So what makes Stella the best choice if an SW wants to get out of the business? Do they have a track record of success? Can they network jobs for a former SW? Can they facilitate grants or scholarships for SWs wishing to return to school? Until such questions are answered with valid verifiable data then I am skeptical.

AA or NA. They are effective BUT they do not meet in bars or shooting galleries nor do they have active drinkers or users present. The separation is required.

Effective. Depends how you define effective? The biggest obstacle is building trust. An organization that can respond to the various existing needs and potential future needs avoids the situation where a fragile person is bounced
around the borough and frustrated. The more that can be accomplished under one roof the better the chances for success. Granted there are niche organizations that are very effective with very small staffs but this is not the issue at hand.

If you were referred to Stella because of a "Bad Trick" or SW related experience then the person in the organization simply did the job properly. Like referring someone with an obviously broken arm to a hospital. There is now implied association, affiliation, or relationship of any kind.

Education. Take what people tell me at face value but with a grain of salt.Comes down to what gets done - the results.

I was looking for STI risk information. No bad experience. When I first went there I discovered I could talk about what I did and not worry about being judged. I could talk about work and have people know what I am talking about and if I have a problem their is often someone who can offer insight on how they dealt with a similar issue. At the time I did not know these boards existed so my work was very isolating. I did not know anyone who I could talk to when I got home about my work day who could empathize and say: "I so know what you mean!"

As you said, the biggest obstacle is building trust. This is where Stella excels. This is Stella's niche.

BTW, AA and NA meetings will sometimes have active users present since the only criteria to join is the desire to stop. Sometimes people have used right before going to the meeting. No they do not meet in bars or shooting galleries. And you are not supposed to have drugs, alcohol or paraphernalia on you at the meeting, but sometimes the guy who shows up looking for help is still using; or had a relapse.

Alcoholics usually have jobs, family, a support network, better finances and a single substance problem. SWs usually are alone, or a single parent, no family, no support network, day to day finances and a shopping list of physical, psychological and / or substance problems.. Surprised that you did not figure this part out.

Also ask people who go to AA/NA and they will tell you most had lost everything before cleaning up their act. Also you seem to think the stereotype street walker is representative of most SPs.

Anyway, I am getting the feeling absolutely nothing anyone says here will change your mind about Stella's effectiveness. Try to remember though even if another organization might be theoretically better quipped, if the girl is unwilling to be honest about her work with them they are limited in what they can do.

Ronnie,
Naughtylady

 

[eastender]

Stella Encore

I was looking for STI risk information. No bad experience. When I first went there I discovered I could talk about what I did and not worry about being judged. I could talk about work and have people know what I am talking about and if I have a problem their is often someone who can offer insight on how they dealt with a similar issue. At the time I did not know these boards existed so my work was very isolating. I did not know anyone who I could talk to when I got home about my work day who could empathize and say: "I so know what you mean!"

As you said, the biggest obstacle is building trust. This is where Stella excels. This is Stella's niche.

BTW, AA and NA meetings will sometimes have active users present since the only criteria to join is the desire to stop. Sometimes people have used right before going to the meeting. No they do not meet in bars or shooting galleries. And you are not supposed to have drugs, alcohol or paraphernalia on you at the meeting, but sometimes the guy who shows up looking for help is still using; or had a relapse.


Also ask people who go to AA/NA and they will tell you most had lost everything before cleaning up their act. Also you seem to think the stereotype street walker is representative of most SPs.

Anyway, I am getting the feeling absolutely nothing anyone says here will change your mind about Stella's effectiveness. Try to remember though even if another organization might be theoretically better quipped, if the girl is unwilling to be honest about her work with them they are limited in what they can do.

Ronnie,
Naughtylady

Ronnie,

Never questioned Stella's effectiveness within their niche. Point where we diverge is when it comes to leaving their niche and getting into the mainstream lifestyle.

You and others in this thread want to wrap, package and identify the SW as such in every situation, so you create this artificial criteria for leaving the lifestyle. You last comment about the girl being "honest" is very sad but is also very revealing. Why is that so important to you and others here? Why insist that the SW identify herself as such? Why take away the right to her privacy and dignity? I've never raised this as an issue. I just see a person needing help.

A community organization has a very simple approach. If someone needs help and it is possible to help then they will help. After a fire they do not ask the victims what there occupation was the day before. A carpenter, teacher or an SW are all equal - each needs comfort, shelter,clothing, food, help relating to the event and their loses.

As for my perception of most SPs - you are so far from being accurate that no answer will suffice.

 

[eastender]

Perplexed

Around 1920 in Montreal, an American woman named Maimie was living and working in Montreal as a prostitute. With the help of some generous souls, she opened a drop-in center (near Ontario Street and Sanguinet) where prostitutes could go to chat about work in a safe space. When it was time to name the drop-in, the generous souls wanted to call it "La maison des femmes sans amie". But Maimie refused. She was a hooker herself and didnt related to the "femmes sans amie" stigma. In her memoir (Maimie's papers) she talks about a strong beautiful fun and smart woman, Stella, who frequently came to her drop-in. Eastender, you are as blind and pathetic as these people were 100yrs ago.

I have worked for public health and a couple of Centre Sud organisations myself. What you are saying is absolutly false. In a Court of Justice, we would describe your behavior and intentions as Mauvaise Foi.

Ronnie and the others, I admire your patient.

Thank you submitting more evidence that the community in Centre Sud was as open and accepting 90 years ago as they are today. Centre Sud is the area that accepted the Gay Community, countless immigrant groups and other marginalized people.

BTW - 312 Ontario east - a few short steps from the corner of Sanguinet and Ontario was the home of one of the well known Montreal brothels in the pre Caron Commission days. A short walk from where the family lived when I was born.

 

[gugu]

If for some unfortunate reason Stella would cease these organizations would continue and absorb the responsibilities without missing a beat.

Sorry. That is just not true. Stella have succeeded in reaching SW like no organization has ever done before and like no community organization is able to do now.

You admit you cannot provide any evidence that community organizations are efficient in reaching and dealing with SW. Now you add to your mental idealization of the situation in H-M that there is a historic tradition of help to the hookers by the community organizations. Please provide some evidence to that. That there were hookers on the docks is not sufficient evidence. Give us some examples of community organizations that succeeded in reaching them.

Thank you submitting more evidence that the community in Centre Sud was as open and accepting 90 years ago as they are today.

This statement, shows again, if needed, your bad faith. I don’t know if she did it on purpose, but you have fallen in a trap. Lou Simons submitted a case of a hooker driven help center. You make it evidence of the openness of the Centre Sud people. Hey! Think just for a second about what she was trying to point out.

To use your expression, Stella is a “niche” organization. Their niche is sex workers. As they are, as people, as a whole, with their moments of happiness and their moments of miseries. They are able to reach them, something that the other community organizations, whatever you say, are not able to do. You say they are incompetent in helping those who want to get out of the trade. Again, you cannot provide evidence. Show the unacceptable attitudes of Stella and then we will take you seriously. You are totally ignorant of how Stella deals with SW. You may try as much as you want to teach them from the stands what they should do with SW who want to leave the trade, I think they are much more competent than you to deal with that. You look like a predator: bring the girls here, WE know better then you how to deal with them. SW choose themselves who they want to relate to. Everybody starts from there. Everybody except you. You say: don’t go to Stella, it’s like going to a bar for an alcoholic. Once you have provided some evidence of irresponsible attitudes by Stella maybe you could launch some attacks.

You talk with no facts or when you provide facts they are usually irrelevant or wrong. You also accuse with no evidence. You are unable to make the most simple mental connection on this. You may repeat as often as you want that we do not follow your logic, it will not change the reality. Your problem IS your logic.

 

[eastender]

Your Contradictions

Sorry. That is just not true. Stella have succeeded in reaching SW like no organization has ever done before and like no community organization is able to do now.

You admit you cannot provide any evidence that community organizations are efficient in reaching and dealing with SW. Now you add to your mental idealization of the situation in H-M that there is a historic tradition of help to the hookers by the community organizations. Please provide some evidence to that. That there were hookers on the docks is not sufficient evidence. Give us some examples of community organizations that succeeded in reaching them.



This statement, shows again, if needed, your bad faith. I don’t know if she did it on purpose, but you have fallen in a trap. Lou Simons submitted a case of a hooker driven help center. You make it evidence of the openness of the Centre Sud people. Hey! Think just for a second about what she was trying to point out.

To use your expression, Stella is a “niche” organization. Their niche is sex workers. As they are, as people, as a whole, with their moments of happiness and their moments of miseries. They are able to reach them, something that the other community organizations, whatever you say, are not able to do. You say they are incompetent in helping those who want to get out of the trade. Again, you cannot provide evidence. Show the unacceptable attitudes of Stella and then we will take you seriously. You are totally ignorant of how Stella deals with SW. You may try as much as you want to teach them from the stands what they should do with SW who want to leave the trade, I think they are much more competent than you to deal with that. You look like a predator: bring the girls here, WE know better then you how to deal with them. SW choose themselves who they want to relate to. Everybody starts from there. Everybody except you. You say: don’t go to Stella, it’s like going to a bar for an alcoholic. Once you have provided some evidence of irresponsible attitudes by Stella maybe you could launch some attacks.

You talk with no facts or when you provide facts they are usually irrelevant or wrong. You also accuse with no evidence. You are unable to make the most simple mental connection on this. You may repeat as often as you want that we do not follow your logic, it will not change the reality. Your problem IS your logic.

Societe St. Vincent de Paul was helping SW long before Stella was formed and continues to do so. That their statistics count everyone helped as people is the way it is. They were in the women's prisons, shelters, etc educating, helping in countless ways long before Stella was formed or before Tanguay was built.

You purposely change the debate to a different issue. Initially we were discussing SWs choosing to leave the lifestyle and what was the best option for help in this regard. Now you change the debate to reaching SWs.
I have agreed that Stella is excellent in their niche reaching helping SWs by providing information that makes their lifestyle choice safer and healthier. No debate here BUT the original issue still remains where does the SW turn for help should she decide to change her lifestyle.

The first step to such a change is the desire to stop being an SW coupled with the desire to join the mainstream. To do so you have to cut all ties with the SW environment. Going to Stella does not accomplish this since they are part of the SW environment and the information they provide has the possibility of making the SW rethink her decision. Is that an acceptable risk?
Everyone has to make their evaluation. But it is a paradox that Stella has to confront and that you have to recognize.

You refer to statistics BUT by doing so you create another paradox. Stella's mandate is to help SWs so by default anyone they help is an SW and you have this wonderful conclusion that 100% of the people helped by Stella are SWs so no one is doing a better job then Stella. On the other hand an SW goes to SSVP with a housing problem, needing appliances, furniture etc. SSVP does not ask her occupation they just help her. So their stats do not show that they helped an SW.

This brings us to the final contradiction in your position. To admit that anyone else helps SWs you insist that SWs be identified as such and thereby stigmatized. But this goes against their desire to leave the SW lifestyle and enter the mainstream since they would be branded with this stigmata of being identified on the paperwork as an SW upon entry into the mainstream. Why do you wish that this description become part of their permanent file? How does this help them?

The purpose of the community organizations is to help people. They are not their to identify people according to lifestyle choice and stigmatize them as you desire. YOU ARE the one insisting that community organizations identify SWs and stimatize them while I am the one insisting that they are simply people needing help with the right to their privacy and dignity no other questions asked.