There is no such defense that I am aware of in any American jurisdiction. Statutory rape is a strict liability offense. If someone is under the age of consent they cannot consent to sexual relations, PERIOD. The state of mind of the offender is legally irrelevant.
MERBites and the Law
- Thread starter Ripcord
- Start date
If you were following the thread on the Quebec City cases, you would recall that the charges there were not for what would be the Canadian equivalent of statutory rape. They were for hiring an underaged prostitute, or more precisely where one "... obtains for consideration, or communicates with anyone for the purpose of obtaining the sexual services of a person who is under the age of eighteen years ...".
Dear Mr. Mandrake: Iappreciate your thoughts above. yes, I always keep the door locked, and no, I donot make them scream too much (with the exception of Marie-Eve of Asservisante. anyone who has been with her will understand that.)
Yes. The prize is one box of condoms and a tube of Astro-Glide, along with a pamphlet on the basics of How to Do Greek.
Yes. The prize is one box of condoms and a tube of Astro-Glide, along with a pamphlet on the basics of How to Do Greek.
As far as the Gilet affair goes, the jury was unable to believe or not if the younger girl was a lier or not, but he admits of having paid for services with the older one and the verdict the jury rendered was simple we cannot let this guy go away free, but we can't convict him on the younger girl so let's convict him on the older one. The worst thing Gillet did was to admit having an affair with the older one, and if he hadn't admit it he would probably had walked free from the courthouse. As far as the sentence I think the judge gave him a very hard sentence, usually when convicted on a first time is a fine of 100 to 200$, and having sex with a girl over the age of 16 and with mutual consent is not illegal in Canada, and that's what he is debating in Appeal, on that point he will win, but on the point of hiring a prostitute he will definitely loose, and the crown appeal ia very weak, the girl had no credibility and that's why jury didn't gave Gillet a guilty plea for those charges. As far as I believe Gillet will have one of the 2 charges reverse in appeal, the one for having sex with a minor, because it was mutual consent, he will stay guilty on the charge of hiring a prostitute, and the crown cases in appeal will stay as they are, so Gillet will have as only sentence kept the community work he already did and fines and suspended sentences will be dropped, that's my opinion.
As far as beeing busted on hiring a girl from an agency, that you receive in an hotel, I would say chances are smaller than beiing strucked by lightning on Ste-Catherine street and winng the 29 million$ jackpot of lotto 6/49 on the same day, so unless you use an agency known for teenies (under 16) and that you are a pedophile there is about no chances of beeing caught by LE.
Incalls are not the samething at all, there chances of beeing caught in an LE are about the same as winning the 4 out of 6 at the 6/49.
In my many years of hobbying (since beginning of the 80's) at first I was using incalls and massage parlor and I got caught in 1986, not the day they busted but they we're doing surveillance and checking ID's when you left the premises and drive your car they we're pulling you for checking car registrations and drivers licence and they called me to go to the police station a few days after the bi bust. Since then I used outcall in hotel many many times over 500 times and I never worried of beeing busted, in Montreal or Quebec city.
So if you want to get busted use Massage parlors or incalls, and if you want peace of mind use outcalls. I even worry about self serve incalls, liike Pussycat or Octopussy, because some girls may want to make more money and be too liberal on services.
As far as beeing busted on hiring a girl from an agency, that you receive in an hotel, I would say chances are smaller than beiing strucked by lightning on Ste-Catherine street and winng the 29 million$ jackpot of lotto 6/49 on the same day, so unless you use an agency known for teenies (under 16) and that you are a pedophile there is about no chances of beeing caught by LE.
Incalls are not the samething at all, there chances of beeing caught in an LE are about the same as winning the 4 out of 6 at the 6/49.
In my many years of hobbying (since beginning of the 80's) at first I was using incalls and massage parlor and I got caught in 1986, not the day they busted but they we're doing surveillance and checking ID's when you left the premises and drive your car they we're pulling you for checking car registrations and drivers licence and they called me to go to the police station a few days after the bi bust. Since then I used outcall in hotel many many times over 500 times and I never worried of beeing busted, in Montreal or Quebec city.
So if you want to get busted use Massage parlors or incalls, and if you want peace of mind use outcalls. I even worry about self serve incalls, liike Pussycat or Octopussy, because some girls may want to make more money and be too liberal on services.
Big Daddy said:
I know this therad is old but the question has come up recently.
How in the world can the outcall customer be changed related to living off the avails, or the outcall escort? Only the agency is at risk unless the Canadian Criminal Code has recently been ameneded which I doubt:
I have the entire Canadian Criminal code and I did a word search for avials. The only section it is in, says clearly "of another person". There is nothing I can find in the Canadian Criminal code to make it illegal for the prostitute herself. Where is it illegal in the law?
212(1) Procuring
212. (1) Every one who
(j) lives wholly or in part on the avails of prostitution of another person,
Has this section been amended to drop "of another person"? I doubt it.
Or is LE in Montreal just making their own laws!!
Dave is right
This subject comes up continually on TERB and people still don't seem to get it together to learn the Law.
1. The act of prostitution AS BETWEEN THE CUSTOMER AND GIRL in an outcall setting is LEGAL.
2. Setting up calls and living off the profits of another person's prostitution is ILLEGAL. That means drivers, phone girls and agency owners are breaking the law. This law is rarely enforced in Toronto unless there are reports of underage girls, AIDS-infected SP's or other bad stuff.
3. Incalls and massage parlours in which ANY sex act - Yes, this includes just jacking the guy off!!!!! - takes place are ILLEGAL. They are "bawdy houses" and anyone who runs them or is found on the premises knowingly and without a good excuse is committing an offence.
4. Any communication in a public place for the purposes of prostitution is illegal. This includes in a bar and in a car. This effectively illegalizes all street prositution.
Hope this helps. I'm a lawyer in Toronto.
This subject comes up continually on TERB and people still don't seem to get it together to learn the Law.
1. The act of prostitution AS BETWEEN THE CUSTOMER AND GIRL in an outcall setting is LEGAL.
2. Setting up calls and living off the profits of another person's prostitution is ILLEGAL. That means drivers, phone girls and agency owners are breaking the law. This law is rarely enforced in Toronto unless there are reports of underage girls, AIDS-infected SP's or other bad stuff.
3. Incalls and massage parlours in which ANY sex act - Yes, this includes just jacking the guy off!!!!! - takes place are ILLEGAL. They are "bawdy houses" and anyone who runs them or is found on the premises knowingly and without a good excuse is committing an offence.
4. Any communication in a public place for the purposes of prostitution is illegal. This includes in a bar and in a car. This effectively illegalizes all street prositution.
Hope this helps. I'm a lawyer in Toronto.
I was intrigued by this law: 211 Transporting person to bawdy-house
Every one who knowingly takes, transports, directs, or offers to take, transport or direct, any other person to a common bawdy-house is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction. R.S. c. C-34, s. 194.
Does this mean that any post that "directs" hobbyists to an incall is illegal too?
Every one who knowingly takes, transports, directs, or offers to take, transport or direct, any other person to a common bawdy-house is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction. R.S. c. C-34, s. 194.
Does this mean that any post that "directs" hobbyists to an incall is illegal too?
oagre:
So, a girl can prostitute herself legally to earn a living? As long as she lives alone and doesn't have a pimp, nobody is commiting any offence?
So, a girl can prostitute herself legally to earn a living? As long as she lives alone and doesn't have a pimp, nobody is commiting any offence?
Yes a girl can prostutute herself to earn a living legally.
As long as she lives alone. Not even a roomate. Doesn't help to support anyone, not even her mother. Does not have a driver. And does not do incalls. Oh yes she must not refer anybody to anyone either...that would be procuring. She also must be carefull not to talk in public when on her cel phone...technically thanks to the CRTC the cel phone itself is public air but their has never been a prosecution based on this one...yet.
Ronnie,
Naughtylady
As long as she lives alone. Not even a roomate. Doesn't help to support anyone, not even her mother. Does not have a driver. And does not do incalls. Oh yes she must not refer anybody to anyone either...that would be procuring. She also must be carefull not to talk in public when on her cel phone...technically thanks to the CRTC the cel phone itself is public air but their has never been a prosecution based on this one...yet.
Ronnie,
Naughtylady
naughtylady said:
I understand there is a court case in Ontario that upheld that a cell phone is private not public solicitation but I can't reference it. The intent of the solicitation law was clearly about street hookers. Not any broader. There have been clear cases that newspaper, magazine ads are not public even though can they can be seen in plain site. I think the same rationale applies to cell phones. The soliciation law says a public "PLACE". I cell phone is not a place any more than a newspaper or the Internet, but has to be a physical place.
The communicating offence was designed to deal with the nuisance caused by street solicitation. In 1990, the SCC held that while the communicating section is an infringement on the freedom of expression, it is justifiable infringement because of the importance of eliminating street solicitation and the associated social nuisances.
"Public place" is defined as "any place to which the public have access as of right or by invitation..... and any motor vehicle located in a place.... open to public view". Cyberspace is not a "place" any more than a radio or tv is.
Car sex is illegal unless in a very secluded location as one case pointed out. A telephone is private so you can discuss it freely. It is also perfectly legal for a prostitute to advertise in magazines, newspapers and websites, as they are not considered a public place.
In Toronto one street prostitute was arrested for soliciting. The arresting officer had her on tape which was played for the judge. The tape showed the undercover officer asking her what she charged for a straight lay. She replied, If you would like to come to my motel room, I will tell you all the details, but if not, I won't tell you anything because it is illegal to solicit in a public place." The judge looked at the officer and said, "well it sounds to me as though she read the law to you?". The case was immediately tossed out. Source: www.ermail.org discussion thread 2722.
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Avails.....
There is a Supreme court of Canada case from the early 1990's that says a prostitute can split living expenses with a friend or boyfriend, as long as the expenses are not related to her "business". The court redefined the "avails" section of the Criminal code and stated that the relationship must be EXPLOITATIVE. So a pimp working a girl and having her hand over her earnings = "avails". An SP living with a legitimate boyfriend and just splitting groceries with him does not = "avails".
There is a Supreme court of Canada case from the early 1990's that says a prostitute can split living expenses with a friend or boyfriend, as long as the expenses are not related to her "business". The court redefined the "avails" section of the Criminal code and stated that the relationship must be EXPLOITATIVE. So a pimp working a girl and having her hand over her earnings = "avails". An SP living with a legitimate boyfriend and just splitting groceries with him does not = "avails".
Other issues
1. Dave is right again. Soliciting over a cellphone is not a "public place" soliticitation.
2. Yes, an outcall girl booking her own calls is doing nothing illegal.
3. Technically, referring another girl to a client is "procuring". But it would parctically never be busted inthe current law enforcement climate in Central Canada.
1. Dave is right again. Soliciting over a cellphone is not a "public place" soliticitation.
2. Yes, an outcall girl booking her own calls is doing nothing illegal.
3. Technically, referring another girl to a client is "procuring". But it would parctically never be busted inthe current law enforcement climate in Central Canada.
MERBites and LE
I have looked around the MERB site for info. regarding the risks hobbyists take when indulging their fantasies. I haven’t found much info. Basically I wish it was all legal and we didn’t have to worry, but that’s not the case. As I read, it occurs to me that agents of LE who monitor the site will gain much valuable info. on the sex scene in the Mtl area. I don’t want to tangle with them.
My question is this..... Is there anyone out there who can answer a few questions about the legal implications of our pastime? There must be a lawyer or two hiding in our numbers.
1. Street solicitation is illegal, but what about calling incall or outcall agencies? Are they illegal?
2. If I go to an incall, what have I done wrong? I called a number, and went to an address. Is this illegal?
3. If I’m in a strip club that offers FS (e.g. Hilltop) what am I guilty of? I know what goes on in the boots may be more than the judge intended when he allowed “danse contact”, but what exactly is the client guilty of?
4. Having a massage is not illegal. Is massaging Mr. Happy illegal? If I roll the SP over and F**k her ass, what law have I broken?
5. General question. It’s clear that “sex providers” are guilty of things such as “living off the avails of prostitution”. or “keeping a common bawdy house”, but what is the humble client guilty of?
Sinbad.
I have looked around the MERB site for info. regarding the risks hobbyists take when indulging their fantasies. I haven’t found much info. Basically I wish it was all legal and we didn’t have to worry, but that’s not the case. As I read, it occurs to me that agents of LE who monitor the site will gain much valuable info. on the sex scene in the Mtl area. I don’t want to tangle with them.
My question is this..... Is there anyone out there who can answer a few questions about the legal implications of our pastime? There must be a lawyer or two hiding in our numbers.
1. Street solicitation is illegal, but what about calling incall or outcall agencies? Are they illegal?
2. If I go to an incall, what have I done wrong? I called a number, and went to an address. Is this illegal?
3. If I’m in a strip club that offers FS (e.g. Hilltop) what am I guilty of? I know what goes on in the boots may be more than the judge intended when he allowed “danse contact”, but what exactly is the client guilty of?
4. Having a massage is not illegal. Is massaging Mr. Happy illegal? If I roll the SP over and F**k her ass, what law have I broken?
5. General question. It’s clear that “sex providers” are guilty of things such as “living off the avails of prostitution”. or “keeping a common bawdy house”, but what is the humble client guilty of?
Sinbad.
Sinbad,
Your questions have already been answered on this Board. Some posters even posted the applicable laws. You need to do a search which you obviously did not do. I did a 5 second search and found answers so you just have to do a better job with your searching. Try this and move your post to the correct thread and please post after you have significantly improved your research skills:
https://merb.cc/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5202&highlight=legal
I am tired of having to do research for those who are too lazy to do it themselves. This is the last time!
Your questions have already been answered on this Board. Some posters even posted the applicable laws. You need to do a search which you obviously did not do. I did a 5 second search and found answers so you just have to do a better job with your searching. Try this and move your post to the correct thread and please post after you have significantly improved your research skills:
https://merb.cc/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5202&highlight=legal
I am tired of having to do research for those who are too lazy to do it themselves. This is the last time!
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Femaleluver,
Whether it is technically legal or illegal is irrelevant if it is not enforced. There are zillions of laws on the books that are never enforced or are enforced selectively and only in certain situations. So your post, while well intentioned, is unhelpful.
Whether it is technically legal or illegal is irrelevant if it is not enforced. There are zillions of laws on the books that are never enforced or are enforced selectively and only in certain situations. So your post, while well intentioned, is unhelpful.
femalelover>> not quite accurate, but close:
1- one-provider incall= legal\
this is not legal, incalls of any sort are considered a bawdy house. It is illegal to be a "found in" in a bawdy house.
2- 2-provider incall= bawdy house= illegal
correct
3- bawdy house=illegal
correct
4- street sollicitation=illegal
correct, you solliciting her or her you either way is illegal.
5- home/motel/hotel outcall=legal (unless provider is underage)
with an indy, otherwise the agency is liable for procuring which is illegal.
6- massage in a clinic without hj= obviously legal
obviously
7- massage in a clinic with hj= illegal, BUT, let's face it, widely tolerated in MTL (perhaps less in Laval and South Shore?)
exactly
8- massage in a private place +/- hj =legal
nope, with hj, becomes a bawdy house, therefore illegal.
NB.I cannot really help you on SC, however, as this is not what i prefer.
a SC with extras is considered a bawdyhouse.
Prostitution in and of itself is not illegal in Canada, it is the activities surrounding it that are. Thay is why decriminalisation is so important. Being an SP is not illegal, If she is supporting someone, either fully or partially, then the person who is being supported is breaking the law (living off the avails). Stupid isn't it.
Here is the Canadian laws as pertaining to sexual offences: http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/C-46/42053.html
you may also find this site intersting, and a little easier to understand as it is not written in legal-ease... at least I find it easier to read!
Hope this helps clear some things up...
Ronnie,
Naughtylady
1- one-provider incall= legal\
this is not legal, incalls of any sort are considered a bawdy house. It is illegal to be a "found in" in a bawdy house.
2- 2-provider incall= bawdy house= illegal
correct
3- bawdy house=illegal
correct
4- street sollicitation=illegal
correct, you solliciting her or her you either way is illegal.
5- home/motel/hotel outcall=legal (unless provider is underage)
with an indy, otherwise the agency is liable for procuring which is illegal.
6- massage in a clinic without hj= obviously legal
obviously
7- massage in a clinic with hj= illegal, BUT, let's face it, widely tolerated in MTL (perhaps less in Laval and South Shore?)
exactly
8- massage in a private place +/- hj =legal
nope, with hj, becomes a bawdy house, therefore illegal.
NB.I cannot really help you on SC, however, as this is not what i prefer.
a SC with extras is considered a bawdyhouse.
Prostitution in and of itself is not illegal in Canada, it is the activities surrounding it that are. Thay is why decriminalisation is so important. Being an SP is not illegal, If she is supporting someone, either fully or partially, then the person who is being supported is breaking the law (living off the avails). Stupid isn't it.
Here is the Canadian laws as pertaining to sexual offences: http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/C-46/42053.html
you may also find this site intersting, and a little easier to understand as it is not written in legal-ease... at least I find it easier to read!
Hope this helps clear some things up...
Ronnie,
Naughtylady
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To answer your questions.
1) Street solicitation is indeed illegal, and calling for a ''Escort'' is not in itself illegal. As long as there is no solicitation for sexual services provided for money, no law is broken. I not think I have ever heard of an arrest of an outcall, as far as incalls go if there is a complaint then the LE will can place a charge of operating a "bawdy house"
2) Incall services can be busted just for its existance, and being found in a "bawdy house" is also a crime.
3) I have finger fucked some dancers at "contact dance" clubs. I believe that this is an illegal act, but I do not believe or have heard of any LE capture of any FF desperados not do i believe that the LE is even interested in these activities. However, FS at a club will attract the LE and even being found in a club where these activities are going on will earbn you a visit to the slammer.
4) massage places that offer HJ, BJ or FS are not illegal as long as they do not solicite money for sexual services. If it is included in the price pf the massage and no solicitation can be proven the LE will have no case. Other activities such as vibrator show and thai massage are not illegal and I think that it can be even covered under the Canadian Charter of Human Rights as a form of artistic expression.
5) Under different circumstances the "client" could be found guilty of "solicitation for the pourpose of prostitution" or being a found in in a "bawdy house".
An additional tidbit of info: The arrest stats for prostitution and the sex trade in Montreal has remained almost the same in the last 20 years approx. 800 arrest per year, mostly of SWs on the street scene.
I suspect the reason for the consitancy of these stats are because the LE only reacts when it has to. The old Seargeant Detectives at the Morality squad do not want to increase their work load next year. If they make more arrest this year they will have to keep up the pace next year or they will look like they are slacking off. Also due to logistics, only a certain number and a certain type of arrest are made. If the LE wanted to make 100 arrest a day, they would easily be able to do so with a copy of the Journal de Montreal as a guide to finding SP and MPs that offer "service complete", but logisticly the courts can not handle this amount of cases. Even the majority of cases now involving MPs and SPs are settled by pleading guilty and paying a fine. Thus avoiding a court date, and the time of the judge and prosecutor.
I have heard that beacause it is so hard to prove solicitation that the LE have been reduced to ticketing the SPs and MPs that offer "ull service" for not having the appropriate permits for operating a business so that they can justify their time on the reports that they write up for the high command at the Montreal Police.
1) Street solicitation is indeed illegal, and calling for a ''Escort'' is not in itself illegal. As long as there is no solicitation for sexual services provided for money, no law is broken. I not think I have ever heard of an arrest of an outcall, as far as incalls go if there is a complaint then the LE will can place a charge of operating a "bawdy house"
2) Incall services can be busted just for its existance, and being found in a "bawdy house" is also a crime.
3) I have finger fucked some dancers at "contact dance" clubs. I believe that this is an illegal act, but I do not believe or have heard of any LE capture of any FF desperados not do i believe that the LE is even interested in these activities. However, FS at a club will attract the LE and even being found in a club where these activities are going on will earbn you a visit to the slammer.
4) massage places that offer HJ, BJ or FS are not illegal as long as they do not solicite money for sexual services. If it is included in the price pf the massage and no solicitation can be proven the LE will have no case. Other activities such as vibrator show and thai massage are not illegal and I think that it can be even covered under the Canadian Charter of Human Rights as a form of artistic expression.
5) Under different circumstances the "client" could be found guilty of "solicitation for the pourpose of prostitution" or being a found in in a "bawdy house".
An additional tidbit of info: The arrest stats for prostitution and the sex trade in Montreal has remained almost the same in the last 20 years approx. 800 arrest per year, mostly of SWs on the street scene.
I suspect the reason for the consitancy of these stats are because the LE only reacts when it has to. The old Seargeant Detectives at the Morality squad do not want to increase their work load next year. If they make more arrest this year they will have to keep up the pace next year or they will look like they are slacking off.
Also due to logistics, only a certain number and a certain type of arrest are made. If the LE wanted to make 100 arrest a day, they would easily be able to do so with a copy of the Journal de Montreal as a guide to finding SP and MPs that offer "service complete", but logisticly the courts can not handle this amount of cases. Even the majority of cases now involving MPs and SPs are settled by pleading guilty and paying a fine. Thus avoiding a court date, and the time of the judge and prosecutor.I have heard that beacause it is so hard to prove solicitation that the LE have been reduced to ticketing the SPs and MPs that offer "ull service" for not having the appropriate permits for operating a business so that they can justify their time on the reports that they write up for the high command at the Montreal Police.
Isn't there also a "four strikes" policy that was discussed in a prior thread? That is, four strikes and you are still not out?
I really think the Mod should merge this thread with one of the others. The amount of Board clutter that is being created is ridiculous.
I really think the Mod should merge this thread with one of the others. The amount of Board clutter that is being created is ridiculous.
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