Nice la Presse Article on XO this morning

[Lunaseraphim]

Well you’re conflating a transactional business with date rape among two friends whom I know.

In your example I would speak with my friend and encourage my female friend to go to police if credible. An important distinction is that the relationship here is not contingent upon her livelihood. Again, it’s important to do the right thing acting in charity, justice and caution. Give the benefit of the doubt but grounded in charity, not naïveté.

I understand that police look down upon escorts and LE and family may not believe allegations. That’s why it’s even more crucial for those with knowledge to assist and go to LE on the victim’s behalf when he or she (other escorts) have knowledge of abuse.

A business transaction doesn't negate consent... And you're putting all the responsibility on providers. No clients will ever report anything to the police. I've had clients tell me they knew some places has minors working for them or that they now only saw indies because providers confided in them about abuse they are experiencing. I don't blame these clients for not going to the police as they could get arrested just for being clients.

Also a lot of different forms of abuse are extremely hard to prove and it will lead nowhere to report them. In this case the police is using these testimonies to shut down an escort agency. It's usually "pimping" that ends up being the charge.. not rape, coercion. Etc.

I just wish an organization like Stella was here to talk at my place because I'm out of words here, this is going around in circles

 

[skarsga]

There are countless ways the father could have found out. Only one is that he was a prospective client. Could also have overheard a conversation,tipped off by third party, or maybe got suspicious of big cash influx.

Is sad that the woman felt trapped and did not have a support system where she felt like she could get help. Sad that our society blames and shames victims, even after "me too".
I think an added component is that Crime against sw is viewed by a large segment of our society as "just desserts".

 

[Georgy07]

It's also up to men not to rape, coerce and abuse women by taking advantage of certain systems. Cops don't always tell the truth. I have civilian friends who reported rape to the police and were not taken seriously. One of my friends went through a horribly traumatic process only to have the case dropped. It took me a week of online research to find out who her rapist was and to find other victims who didn't want to get involved because they were scared or didn't want to go through more trauma.

It's incredibly traumatic to report abuse and rape. It's not hard to understand that.

Well, technically, the moment you pay someone for sex it is a kind of ''class abuse'' where you use your economical power to use the body of someone that is systemically oppressed by the context of its state of class inferiority. The only way you can really be ok with this is because you would be alienated by your class consciousness as a member of the proletariat.

 

[Glyscore]

This reminds me that two married friends of mine, both of whom were active paying members on the Seeking Arrangement website, discovered that the daughter of one of them was a SB on the website. The one who was a friend of the father and knew the daughter recognized her on the website. He then told her father, his friend, who then confronted the daughter and made her delete her profile. I heard about this from the friend who "ratted out" the other friend's daughter. I found there to be a lot of hypocrisy in this, even though these guys are friends of mine. I felt sorry for the daughter, whom I didn't know and never met, for being "ousted" from the website by 2 men in their 40s who are themselves active participants and members in the website (while cheating on their wives and the daughter's mother). However I kept my opinions to myself.

This hobby is riddle in hypocrisy lol. We have to admit it. How many man here would be okay for their Daughter if they had one to be an SP? Hmmmm

 

[RobertNYC]

A business transaction doesn't negate consent... And you're putting all the responsibility on providers. No clients will ever report anything to the police. I've had clients tell me they knew some places has minors working for them or that they now only saw indies because providers confided in them about abuse they are experiencing. I don't blame these clients for not going to the police as they could get arrested just for being clients.

Also a lot of different forms of abuse are extremely hard to prove and it will lead nowhere to report them. In this case the police is using these testimonies to shut down an escort agency. It's usually "pimping" that ends up being the charge.. not rape, coercion. Etc.

I just wish an organization like Stella was here to talk at my place because I'm out of words here, this is going around in circles

I need to be off to other things, but I feel like we’re talking in circles. Parting thoughts:

Rape should be reported when it occurs, wherever it occurs.

Who among us is putting all responsibility on providers to report? Can you show me that part? I’m saying it’s on everyone who knows a rape occurred. You disagree?

A business transaction certainly doesn’t negate consent, but how you approach a friend who has been raped is a much different context and even set of emotions. I’d hope you could agree with that. I hope. If not, we’ve all been reduced to AI entities.

Don’t ever say, please, no client would ever report rape. This client would regardless of consequences.

 

[Lunaseraphim]

Well, technically, the moment you pay someone for sex it is a kind of ''class abuse'' where you use your economical power to use the body of someone that is systemically oppressed by the context of its state of class inferiority. The only way you can really be ok with this is because you would be alienated by your class consciousness as a member of the proletariat.

I think that point of view sort of lacks nuance. I see what you mean, but in a lot of cases it isn't true. If I put up an ad and a respectful client who is nice to me books me, I don't think he is abusing his power.

What is an abuse of power is when a client sees that a provider is desperate for money and pushes her to do things she doesn't want to do or refuses to pay fully.
But you are not abusing anyone by paying a provider for sex who has the ability to refuse clients and to choose the type of services she wants to offer.

Also a lot of clients of sex workers are working class men.

I need to be off to other things, but I feel like we’re talking in circles. Parting thoughts:

Rape should be reported when it occurs, wherever it occurs.

Who among us is putting all responsibility on providers to report. Can you show me that part? I’m saying it’s on everyone who knows a rape occurred.

A business transaction certainly doesn’t negate consent, but how you approach a friend who has been raped is a much different context and even set of emotions. I’d hope you could agree with that. I hope.

Don’t ever say, please, no client would ever report rape. This client would regardless of consequences.

I'm glad you feel that way and that you want people to suffer the consequences of their actions.. However hear me out. If a provider told you that a Merb member raped her, good to know that you will report him. What you don't seem to know is that if you did report him, if they do take it seriously and want to charge him not for assault but use that as an excuse to charge him for paying an escort, this provider will be retraumatized and put through a horrible process.

 

[Georgy07]

I disagree with that personally. I see what you mean, but I think that is not necessarily true. If I put up an ad and a respectful client who is nice to me books me, I don't think he is abusing his power.

What is an abuse of power is when a client sees that a provider is desperate for money and pushes her to do things she doesn't want to do or refuses to pay fully. But you are not abusing anyone by paying a provider for sex who has the ability to refuse clients and to choose the type of services she wants to offer.


I'm glad you feel that way and that you want people to suffer the consequences of their actions.. However hear me out. If a provider told you that a Merb member raped her, good to know that you will report him. What you don't seem to know is that if you did report him, if they do take it seriously and want to charge him not for assault but use that as an excuse to charge him for paying an escort, this provider will be retraumatized and put through a horrible process.

Well, would you do the same if you were a millionaire ? That's the question.

 

[Lunaseraphim]

Well, would you do the same if you were a millionaire ? That's the question.

Would I do what if I were a millionaire? Would I be a sex worker? No. But I also wouldn't do a lot of other things. If I was a millionaire I would just focus on my art and on helping others, I wouldn't have any type of job. Most clients of sex workers aren't so rich that they aren't working for a boss or providing services for their own clients. I think that argument is not super relevant

 

[RobertNYC]

I disagree with that personally. I see what you mean, but I think that is not necessarily true. If I put up an ad and a respectful client who is nice to me books me, I don't think he is abusing his power.

What is an abuse of power is when a client sees that a provider is desperate for money and pushes her to do things she doesn't want to do or refuses to pay fully.
But you are not abusing anyone by paying a provider for sex who has the ability to refuse clients and to choose the type of services she wants to offer.


I'm glad you feel that way and that you want people to suffer the consequences of their actions.. However hear me out. If a provider told you that a Merb member raped her, good to know that you will report him. What you don't seem to know is that if you did report him, if they do take it seriously and want to charge him not for assault but use that as an excuse to charge him for paying an escort, this provider will be retraumatized and put through a horrible process.

In your example I would act in charity, justice and caution, as I previously mentioned. And I would encourage her to report it, using the same courage it took to promote the allegation on Merb. Just because an allegation is made doesn’t make it true, nor does it make it untrue.

And priority #1 would be trying or encouraging her to remove herself from a situation of abuse, before anything else.

If that’s controversial, I’m at a loss.

 

[Georgy07]

Would I do what if I were a millionaire? Would I be a sex worker? No. But I also wouldn't do a lot of other things. If I was a millionaire I would just focus on my art and on helping others, I wouldn't have any type of job.

Am I a class abuser because I sometimes eat at restaurants where servers are probably paid low wages? I wouldn't think so, I try to tip very well and I am not a difficult customer.

Thats what time saying.

 

[Lunaseraphim]

Thats what time saying.

What are you saying because I don't get it lol
There's a difference between paying for someone's services & treating them well, VS exploiting or abusing them due to a class difference. This can be seen in other industries as well.

 

[Lunaseraphim]

In your example I would act in charity, justice and caution, as I previously mentioned. And I would encourage her to report it, using the same courage it took to promote the allegation on Merb. Just because an allegation is made doesn’t make it true, nor does it make it untrue.

And priority #1 would be trying or encouraging her to remove herself from a situation of abuse, before anything else.

If that’s controversial, I’m at a loss.

It's not controversial to support a victim of assault or abuse.

 

[LeDodo]

Well, technically, the moment you pay someone for sex it is a kind of ''class abuse'' where you use your economical power to use the body of someone that is systemically oppressed by the context of its state of class inferiority. The only way you can really be ok with this is because you would be alienated by your class consciousness as a member of the proletariat.

Not a class abuse if you respect her terms of the service. The abuse occurs when you breach that "contract".

 

[RobertNYC]

It's not controversial to support a victim of assault or abuse.

I would even go beyond that and say it’s a moral imperative to report abuse when you witness it or have credible knowledge it occurred.

 

[Lunaseraphim]

I would even go beyond that and say it’s a moral imperative to report abuse when you witness it or have credible knowledge it occurred.

I agree with you, but a lot of people don't agree on the definition of abuse, and a lot of people don't understand nuances when these situations are discussed. It's also very hard to prove it in front of a judge, and it's hard to prove to and by LE. Personally I wish people would just learn more about the dynamics of sexual and domestic violence and listen to survivors instead of focusing on the legal aspects of it. Very often the legal system is not supportive of abuse victims.. Instead, I think it's more important to focus on education and supporting victims ourselves.

I have witnessed a lot of call outs of men I knew in the past.. I know how it goes. Abusers and rapists are often pleasant people who have a lot of friends and supporters. They are rarely abusive to everyone, they are often charming. That's also why the victims often stay, because the abuser has good traits and it becomes confusing. They also fear telling the truth, because they know it will not be believed. And really often people either forgot after a while, or nobody believed the victim and she (or he) lost many friends.

It's also very rare that abuse is ''witnessed'' and even when it is, it's often hidden or presented as something else to others. It's usually not that obvious. ''Credible knowledge'' is also a tough one.. and it touches upon everything I've said earlier.

 

[Lunaseraphim]

Just look at the Epstein files.. It took decades until this came to light, and a lot of victims had reported to LE. They were not taken seriously. A lot of the victims of Epstein were girls who were from abusive homes, they needed money and they were often seen as juvenile delinquents, which weakened their testimony. Even Virginia Giuffre in her memoir describes that the media trashed her, blamed her for the abuse that happened when she was a teenage girl, etc. Abusers really often go for victims they know are scared, naive and isolated.. Or they use the fact that their victim already has a poor reputation. Just being a sex worker could discredit someone. Clementine here has an advantage because of her ''good girl'' image. She is no longer an escort, has a boyfriend, a supportive family.. Even the way she's presenting herself in the documentary with no makeup on and really drab clothes contribute to us being more likely to believe her than other girls who are still sex workers who have been abused at XO.

 

[LeDodo]

Just look at the Epstein files.. It took decades until this came to light, and a lot of victims had reported to LE. They were not taken seriously. A lot of the victims of Epstein were girls who were from abusive homes, they needed money and they were often seen as juvenile delinquents, which weakened their testimony. Even Virginia Giuffre in her memoir describes that the media trashed her, blamed her for the abuse that happened when she was a teenage girl, etc. Abusers really often go for victims they know are scared, naive and isolated.. Or they use the fact that their victim already has a poor reputation. Just being a sex worker could discredit someone. Clementine here has an advantage because of her ''good girl'' image. She is no longer an escort, has a boyfriend, a supportive family.. Even the way she's presenting herself in the documentary with no makeup on and really drab clothes contribute to us being more likely to believe her than other girls who are still sex workers who have been abused at XO.

I couldn't stop thinking also about the Epstein files.

Like some of those girls had the courage to report it, some were ignored, some where being BS because even the LE and law (the "deal" with Attorney Alexander Acosta) were on the side of the rapers.

What made the case viable were (non exhaustively):
- Publication of the serie "Perversion of Justice"
- Public "support" with the metoo movement to give an opening for people who has been abused to speak out
- Additional victims with testimonies that were similar which could bypass the usual disbelief in such acts and practices.

The similarities in abuse is the feeling that the abuser have lot of powers in their hands that will make you lose the sense or the possibility to complain or report it.

 

[Glyscore]

Just look at the Epstein files.. It took decades until this came to light, and a lot of victims had reported to LE. They were not taken seriously. A lot of the victims of Epstein were girls who were from abusive homes, they needed money and they were often seen as juvenile delinquents, which weakened their testimony. Even Virginia Giuffre in her memoir describes that the media trashed her, blamed her for the abuse that happened when she was a teenage girl, etc. Abusers really often go for victims they know are scared, naive and isolated.. Or they use the fact that their victim already has a poor reputation. Just being a sex worker could discredit someone. Clementine here has an advantage because of her ''good girl'' image. She is no longer an escort, has a boyfriend, a supportive family.. Even the way she's presenting herself in the documentary with no makeup on and really drab clothes contribute to us being more likely to believe her than other girls who are still sex workers who have been abused at XO.

I understand your point. But I beleive that taking the folks in the Epstein files is a bad exemple. We talking about folks in the 1% of wealth here. This is more of a case about wealth class and how these people can get away with anything.

Report to the police. Period. Every Time. All the Time. Other type of confort should be provided but pushing for police report and autorities report should be mandatorie. Nothing can convince me otherwise.

 

[Lunaseraphim]

I understand your point. But I beleive that taking the folks in the Epstein files is a bad exemple. We talking about folks in the 1% of wealth here. This is more of a case about wealth class and how these people can get away with anything.

Report to the police. Period. Every Time. All the Time. Other type of confort should be provided but pushing for police report and autorities report should be mandatorie. Nothing can convince me otherwise.

It was an extreme example, I agree.. But that doesn't mean it doesn't reflect reality. Abuse is always about power dynamics. You are still missing my point. If a victim is not seen as credible and not respected as a person, LE won't care and most people won't believe them. If the abuser is well liked by the community, very often people won't believe the allegations. If it happens within a family, the child who does the accusation is often ostracized.

Even in this thread, you see numerous people say ''Sam was so nice to me'' .. ''I have never witnessed such a thing''. Most people think if it didn't happen in front of them, it wasn't happening. And EVEN THEN. Even when it happens in front of them, a lot of people use mental gymnastics to justify what happened.

Once again this isn't simply about ''comfort'' it's about wanting to avoid retraumatization.

 

[Lunaseraphim]

I couldn't stop thinking also about the Epstein files.

Like some of those girls had the courage to report it, some were ignored, some where being BS because even the LE and law (the "deal" with Attorney Alexander Acosta) were on the side of the rapers.

What made the case viable were (non exhaustively):
- Publication of the serie "Perversion of Justice"
- Public "support" with the metoo movement to give an opening for people who has been abused to speak out
- Additional victims with testimonies that were similar which could bypass the usual disbelief in such acts and practices.

The similarities in abuse is the feeling that the abuser have lot of powers in their hands that will make you lose the sense or the possibility to complain or report it.

It's not just people who are as wealthy as Epstein. When I was in university I knew a girl who was groomed and abused by her teacher in high school over the course of a year.. Not a wealthy man but someone who was well liked in her town and who was popular with students. She came from a poor family and was seen as a troublemaker, it was known she had been sexually active early, etc. Another adult convinced her to report it to the police and they insulted her, made her feel stupid, etc. Then more testimonies came out over the years, and he ended up getting convicted.. WAY later.

This is just one example. I have so many stories like this to tell.