Nice la Presse Article on XO this morning

[RobertNYC]

A business transaction doesn't negate consent... And you're putting all the responsibility on providers. No clients will ever report anything to the police. I've had clients tell me they knew some places has minors working for them or that they now only saw indies because providers confided in them about abuse they are experiencing. I don't blame these clients for not going to the police as they could get arrested just for being clients.

Also a lot of different forms of abuse are extremely hard to prove and it will lead nowhere to report them. In this case the police is using these testimonies to shut down an escort agency. It's usually "pimping" that ends up being the charge.. not rape, coercion. Etc.

I just wish an organization like Stella was here to talk at my place because I'm out of words here, this is going around in circles

I need to be off to other things, but I feel like we’re talking in circles. Parting thoughts:

Rape should be reported when it occurs, wherever it occurs.

Who among us is putting all responsibility on providers to report? Can you show me that part? I’m saying it’s on everyone who knows a rape occurred. You disagree?

A business transaction certainly doesn’t negate consent, but how you approach a friend who has been raped is a much different context and even set of emotions. I’d hope you could agree with that. I hope. If not, we’ve all been reduced to AI entities.

Don’t ever say, please, no client would ever report rape. This client would regardless of consequences.

 

[Lunaseraphim]

Well, technically, the moment you pay someone for sex it is a kind of ''class abuse'' where you use your economical power to use the body of someone that is systemically oppressed by the context of its state of class inferiority. The only way you can really be ok with this is because you would be alienated by your class consciousness as a member of the proletariat.

I disagree with that personally. I see what you mean, but in a lot of cases it isn't true. If I put up an ad and a respectful client who is nice to me books me, I don't think he is abusing his power.

What is an abuse of power is when a client sees that a provider is desperate for money and pushes her to do things she doesn't want to do or refuses to pay fully.
But you are not abusing anyone by paying a provider for sex who has the ability to refuse clients and to choose the type of services she wants to offer.

I need to be off to other things, but I feel like we’re talking in circles. Parting thoughts:

Rape should be reported when it occurs, wherever it occurs.

Who among us is putting all responsibility on providers to report. Can you show me that part? I’m saying it’s on everyone who knows a rape occurred.

A business transaction certainly doesn’t negate consent, but how you approach a friend who has been raped is a much different context and even set of emotions. I’d hope you could agree with that. I hope.

Don’t ever say, please, no client would ever report rape. This client would regardless of consequences.

I'm glad you feel that way and that you want people to suffer the consequences of their actions.. However hear me out. If a provider told you that a Merb member raped her, good to know that you will report him. What you don't seem to know is that if you did report him, if they do take it seriously and want to charge him not for assault but use that as an excuse to charge him for paying an escort, this provider will be retraumatized and put through a horrible process.

 

[Georgy07]

I disagree with that personally. I see what you mean, but I think that is not necessarily true. If I put up an ad and a respectful client who is nice to me books me, I don't think he is abusing his power.

What is an abuse of power is when a client sees that a provider is desperate for money and pushes her to do things she doesn't want to do or refuses to pay fully. But you are not abusing anyone by paying a provider for sex who has the ability to refuse clients and to choose the type of services she wants to offer.


I'm glad you feel that way and that you want people to suffer the consequences of their actions.. However hear me out. If a provider told you that a Merb member raped her, good to know that you will report him. What you don't seem to know is that if you did report him, if they do take it seriously and want to charge him not for assault but use that as an excuse to charge him for paying an escort, this provider will be retraumatized and put through a horrible process.

Well, would you do the same if you were a millionaire ? That's the question.

 

[Lunaseraphim]

Well, would you do the same if you were a millionaire ? That's the question.

Would I do what if I were a millionaire? Would I be a sex worker? No. But I also wouldn't do a lot of other things. If I was a millionaire I would just focus on my art and on helping others, I wouldn't have any type of job. Most clients of sex workers aren't so rich that they aren't working for a boss or providing services for their own clients. I think that argument is not super relevant

 

[RobertNYC]

I disagree with that personally. I see what you mean, but I think that is not necessarily true. If I put up an ad and a respectful client who is nice to me books me, I don't think he is abusing his power.

What is an abuse of power is when a client sees that a provider is desperate for money and pushes her to do things she doesn't want to do or refuses to pay fully.
But you are not abusing anyone by paying a provider for sex who has the ability to refuse clients and to choose the type of services she wants to offer.


I'm glad you feel that way and that you want people to suffer the consequences of their actions.. However hear me out. If a provider told you that a Merb member raped her, good to know that you will report him. What you don't seem to know is that if you did report him, if they do take it seriously and want to charge him not for assault but use that as an excuse to charge him for paying an escort, this provider will be retraumatized and put through a horrible process.

In your example I would act in charity, justice and caution, as I previously mentioned. And I would encourage her to report it, using the same courage it took to promote the allegation on Merb. Just because an allegation is made doesn’t make it true, nor does it make it untrue.

And priority #1 would be trying or encouraging her to remove herself from a situation of abuse, before anything else.

If that’s controversial, I’m at a loss.

 

[Georgy07]

Would I do what if I were a millionaire? Would I be a sex worker? No. But I also wouldn't do a lot of other things. If I was a millionaire I would just focus on my art and on helping others, I wouldn't have any type of job.

Am I a class abuser because I sometimes eat at restaurants where servers are probably paid low wages? I wouldn't think so, I try to tip very well and I am not a difficult customer.

Thats what time saying.

 

[Lunaseraphim]

Thats what time saying.

What are you saying because I don't get it lol
There's a difference between paying for someone's services & treating them well, VS exploiting or abusing them due to a class difference. This can be seen in other industries as well.

 

[Lunaseraphim]

In your example I would act in charity, justice and caution, as I previously mentioned. And I would encourage her to report it, using the same courage it took to promote the allegation on Merb. Just because an allegation is made doesn’t make it true, nor does it make it untrue.

And priority #1 would be trying or encouraging her to remove herself from a situation of abuse, before anything else.

If that’s controversial, I’m at a loss.

It's not controversial to support a victim of assault or abuse.

 

[LeDodo]

Well, technically, the moment you pay someone for sex it is a kind of ''class abuse'' where you use your economical power to use the body of someone that is systemically oppressed by the context of its state of class inferiority. The only way you can really be ok with this is because you would be alienated by your class consciousness as a member of the proletariat.

Not a class abuse if you respect her terms of the service. The abuse occurs when you breach that "contract".

 

[RobertNYC]

It's not controversial to support a victim of assault or abuse.

I would even go beyond that and say it’s a moral imperative to report abuse when you witness it or have credible knowledge it occurred.

 

[Lunaseraphim]

I would even go beyond that and say it’s a moral imperative to report abuse when you witness it or have credible knowledge it occurred.

I agree with you, but a lot of people don't agree on the definition of abuse, and a lot of people don't understand nuances when these situations are discussed. It's also very hard to prove it in front of a judge, and it's hard to prove to and by LE. Personally I wish people would just learn more about the dynamics of sexual and domestic violence and listen to survivors instead of focusing on the legal aspects of it. Very often the legal system is not supportive of abuse victims.. Instead, I think it's more important to focus on education and supporting victims ourselves.

I have witnessed a lot of call outs of men I knew in the past.. I know how it goes. Abusers and rapists are often pleasant people who have a lot of friends and supporters. They are rarely abusive to everyone, they are often charming. That's also why the victims often stay, because the abuser has good traits and it becomes confusing. They also fear telling the truth, because they know it will not be believed. And really often people either forgot after a while, or nobody believed the victim and she (or he) lost many friends.

It's also very rare that abuse is ''witnessed'' and even when it is, it's often hidden or presented as something else to others. It's usually not that obvious. ''Credible knowledge'' is also a tough one.. and it touches upon everything I've said earlier.

 

[Lunaseraphim]

Just look at the Epstein files.. It took decades until this came to light, and a lot of victims had reported to LE. They were not taken seriously. A lot of the victims of Epstein were girls who were from abusive homes, they needed money and they were often seen as juvenile delinquents, which weakened their testimony. Even Virginia Giuffre in her memoir describes that the media trashed her, blamed her for the abuse that happened when she was a teenage girl, etc. Abusers really often go for victims they know are scared, naive and isolated.. Or they use the fact that their victim already has a poor reputation. Just being a sex worker could discredit someone. Clementine here has an advantage because of her ''good girl'' image. She is no longer an escort, has a boyfriend, a supportive family.. Even the way she's presenting herself in the documentary with no makeup on and really drab clothes contribute to us being more likely to believe her than other girls who are still sex workers who have been abused at XO.

 

[LeDodo]

Just look at the Epstein files.. It took decades until this came to light, and a lot of victims had reported to LE. They were not taken seriously. A lot of the victims of Epstein were girls who were from abusive homes, they needed money and they were often seen as juvenile delinquents, which weakened their testimony. Even Virginia Giuffre in her memoir describes that the media trashed her, blamed her for the abuse that happened when she was a teenage girl, etc. Abusers really often go for victims they know are scared, naive and isolated.. Or they use the fact that their victim already has a poor reputation. Just being a sex worker could discredit someone. Clementine here has an advantage because of her ''good girl'' image. She is no longer an escort, has a boyfriend, a supportive family.. Even the way she's presenting herself in the documentary with no makeup on and really drab clothes contribute to us being more likely to believe her than other girls who are still sex workers who have been abused at XO.

I couldn't stop thinking also about the Epstein files.

Like some of those girls had the courage to report it, some were ignored, some where being BS because even the LE and law (the "deal" with Attorney Alexander Acosta) were on the side of the rapers.

What made the case viable were (non exhaustively):
- Publication of the serie "Perversion of Justice"
- Public "support" with the metoo movement to give an opening for people who has been abused to speak out
- Additional victims with testimonies that were similar which could bypass the usual disbelief in such acts and practices.

The similarities in abuse is the feeling that the abuser have lot of powers in their hands that will make you lose the sense or the possibility to complain or report it.

 

[Glyscore]

Just look at the Epstein files.. It took decades until this came to light, and a lot of victims had reported to LE. They were not taken seriously. A lot of the victims of Epstein were girls who were from abusive homes, they needed money and they were often seen as juvenile delinquents, which weakened their testimony. Even Virginia Giuffre in her memoir describes that the media trashed her, blamed her for the abuse that happened when she was a teenage girl, etc. Abusers really often go for victims they know are scared, naive and isolated.. Or they use the fact that their victim already has a poor reputation. Just being a sex worker could discredit someone. Clementine here has an advantage because of her ''good girl'' image. She is no longer an escort, has a boyfriend, a supportive family.. Even the way she's presenting herself in the documentary with no makeup on and really drab clothes contribute to us being more likely to believe her than other girls who are still sex workers who have been abused at XO.

I understand your point. But I beleive that taking the folks in the Epstein files is a bad exemple. We talking about folks in the 1% of wealth here. This is more of a case about wealth class and how these people can get away with anything.

Report to the police. Period. Every Time. All the Time. Other type of confort should be provided but pushing for police report and autorities report should be mandatorie. Nothing can convince me otherwise.

 

[Lunaseraphim]

I understand your point. But I beleive that taking the folks in the Epstein files is a bad exemple. We talking about folks in the 1% of wealth here. This is more of a case about wealth class and how these people can get away with anything.

Report to the police. Period. Every Time. All the Time. Other type of confort should be provided but pushing for police report and autorities report should be mandatorie. Nothing can convince me otherwise.

It was an extreme example, I agree.. But that doesn't mean it doesn't reflect reality. Abuse is always about power dynamics. You are still missing my point. If a victim is not seen as credible and not respected as a person, LE won't care and most people won't believe them. If the abuser is well liked by the community, very often people won't believe the allegations. If it happens within a family, the child who does the accusation is often ostracized.

Even in this thread, you see numerous people say ''Sam was so nice to me'' .. ''I have never witnessed such a thing''. Most people think if it didn't happen in front of them, it wasn't happening. And EVEN THEN. Even when it happens in front of them, a lot of people use mental gymnastics to justify what happened.

Once again this isn't simply about ''comfort'' it's about wanting to avoid retraumatization.

 

[Lunaseraphim]

I couldn't stop thinking also about the Epstein files.

Like some of those girls had the courage to report it, some were ignored, some where being BS because even the LE and law (the "deal" with Attorney Alexander Acosta) were on the side of the rapers.

What made the case viable were (non exhaustively):
- Publication of the serie "Perversion of Justice"
- Public "support" with the metoo movement to give an opening for people who has been abused to speak out
- Additional victims with testimonies that were similar which could bypass the usual disbelief in such acts and practices.

The similarities in abuse is the feeling that the abuser have lot of powers in their hands that will make you lose the sense or the possibility to complain or report it.

It's not just people who are as wealthy as Epstein. When I was in university I knew a girl who was groomed and abused by her teacher in high school over the course of a year.. Not a wealthy man but someone who was well liked in her town and who was popular with students. She came from a poor family and was seen as a troublemaker, it was known she had been sexually active early, etc. Another adult convinced her to report it to the police and they insulted her, made her feel stupid, etc. Then more testimonies came out over the years, and he ended up getting convicted.. WAY later.

This is just one example. I have so many stories like this to tell.

 

[LeDodo]

I understand your point. But I beleive that taking the folks in the Epstein files is a bad exemple. We talking about folks in the 1% of wealth here. This is more of a case about wealth class and how these people can get away with anything.

Report to the police. Period. Every Time. All the Time. Other type of confort should be provided but pushing for police report and autorities report should be mandatorie. Nothing can convince me otherwise.

Even if the "power" in the Epstein case are far greater, the atmosphere of fear are similar.
In Clémentine's interview she described her "escape" with her dad. From an outsider POV it looks simple: open the door, walk away.
From her perspective it was more like the anxiety of having someone watching her, if she walked out the door will someone follow them, what will happen if they caught her like any repercussions, etc.

It's always about power dynamics and the sentiment of fear.

 

[Flabert]

It was an extreme example, I agree.. But that doesn't mean it doesn't reflect reality. Abuse is always about power dynamics. You are still missing my point. If a victim is not seen as credible and not respected as a person, LE won't care and most people won't believe them. If the abuser is well liked by the community, very often people won't believe the allegations. If it happens within a family, the child who does the accusation is often ostracized.

Even in this thread, you see numerous people say ''Sam was so nice to me'' .. ''I have never witnessed such a thing''. Most people think if it didn't happen in front of them, it wasn't happening. And EVEN THEN. Even when it happens in front of them, a lot of people use mental gymnastics to justify what happened.

I think we all tend to believe victims and disbelieve abusers here which is one reason we were so appalled when the hockey accuser's stories were proven to be fabricated.

The fact that some doubt parts of Clementine's story has nothing to do with accusing her of fabricating the whole story. There is a clear media narrative story here as well as the fact that people always embellish their story. Anytime you hear 2 people recount an incident they always recount it in their favour. The victim shaming angle is not relevant here I think because her stories is told as a hero story - No aspect of it was critical of her and the mass and media rallied around her.

Bystanders will always put themselves in the situation to see if they think they would have behaved differently. It is not shaming and definitely not denying the victimhood of the person - assuming the story is credible.

I think we need better ways to ensure that providers and clients can meet without fear of abuse on either side (recognizing that more abuse happens to providers - the fact that we need to make it better for both sides does not mean that it is the same on both sides). Changing the side that gets criminalized could have been useful but legalizing the work is key. This does not mean that you need to be registered and they only registered people will be protected. Factory working is legal... and all factory workers are protected (and if some ever got coerced no one would ever say "yeah but they were not registered"). Is the legalization fear the fear that taxes will have to be paid? If so please decriminalize large construction engineering projects because I also hate paying taxes.

 

[Lunaseraphim]

I think we all tend to believe victims and disbelieve abusers here which is one reason we were so appalled when the hockey accuser's stories were proven to be fabricated.

The fact that some doubt parts of Clementine's story has nothing to do with accusing her of fabricating the whole story. There is a clear media narrative story here as well as the fact that people always embellish their story. Anytime you hear 2 people recount an incident they always recount it in their favour. The victim shaming angle is not relevant here I think because her stories is told as a hero story - No aspect of it was critical of her and the mass and media rallied around her.

Bystanders will always put themselves in the situation to see if they think they would have behaved differently. It is not shaming and definitely not denying the victimhood of the person - assuming the story is credible.

I think we need better ways to ensure that providers and clients can meet without fear of abuse on either side (recognizing that more abuse happens to providers - the fact that we need to make it better for both sides does not mean that it is the same on both sides). Changing the side that gets criminalized could have been useful but legalizing the work is key. This does not mean that you need to be registered and they only registered people will be protected. Factory working is legal... and all factory workers are protected (and if some ever got coerced no one would ever say "yeah but they were not registered"). Is the legalization fear the fear that taxes will have to be paid? If so please decriminalize large construction engineering projects because I also hate paying taxes.

Have you read my very long comment about decriminalization versus legalization? People are not pushing for decrim because they don't want to pay taxes lol

I'm not going to repeat all of this.

 

[Giselle Montreal]

. Is the legalization fear the fear that taxes will have to be paid? If so please decriminalize large construction engineering projects because I also hate paying taxes.

Most of us already pay taxes, and it’s not even close to be a legal job.