Nice la Presse Article on XO this morning

[Halloween Mike]

I surfed over the last few pages because there is a lot to catch back but 2 points i noticed...

Well as much i would love a return to the outcall formula (and yes its a lot more discreet) i understand why incall became so popular both for agencies and clients. Agencies/SPs can do a lot more calls (so more money) and clients do just save hotel cost but also risks linked to it.

Heck even myself i used to be all about outcall until agencies kinda forced me to use incalls and at the end i was finding it "easier" in a way even if less "fun". I mean yeah i will always prefer checking in at an hotel and waiting for a date there but if a friend let me borrow his couch, and i can save on the hotel cost or rent at a "cheap hotel" (that some SPs don't like much) then it may be easier... With outcalls there is always a risk the SP may turn down your hotel even without knowing you. And no i won't pay 250$ a night for an hotel room at a big place... Its way too much of a waste... Chabrol and such motels are usually accepted by SPs but they are hellish to sleep at with peoples often partying in rooms above or next door.

Other point i wanted to mention... Remember Bianca White? Super high end indy (for Montreal) and indy. Yet she was arrested for "pimping" and other crimes.

I seen a few of her friends in the business and others i didn't but they still operate... She was arrested in September and we heard nothing. Could still be in jail. My point is its not just agencies... Its not just low end stuff.

 

[Bouddha1]

If i was a Sex worker, I would have a screening process and a hidden camera in my room or in each room.

 

[EastWind]

Looks like this thread is not about XO anymore lol.

 

[EagerBeaver]

... Remember Bianca White? Super high end indy (for Montreal) and indy. Yet she was arrested for "pimping" and other crimes.

https://www.haltonhillstoday.ca/police-beat/woman-charged-with-human-drug-trafficking-after-extensive-halton-police-investigation-11294248

In case anyone thought only men are pimps- guess again. There is such a thing as a pimpette! There has been more than one in the history of the industry in Montreal.

 

[Flabert]

Can you clarify what you mean by this, are you talking about provider's ? Clients ? Both ?

Am not making any recommendations here, just saying the govt might want to stick its nose in hygiene even though it decriminalizes sexwork.

It could be as trivial as ensuring that condoms are available, conditions are appropriate (“regulation 23-3.4-xx a functional shower offering water between 40 and 70c must available to clients and providers”).

Of course the govt might want to ensure that sex workers are tested - most likely if confronted by a moral panic (I envision Maria Mourani shriek for this). Testing clients would be more logistically complicated but who knows what they would consider.

 

[EastWind]

https://www.haltonhillstoday.ca/police-beat/woman-charged-with-human-drug-trafficking-after-extensive-halton-police-investigation-11294248

In case anyone thought only men are pimps- guess again. There is such a thing as a pimpette!

The OG:

 

[Lunaseraphim]

A lot of pimps are women.. and it doesn't have anything to do with "high end" or "low end". These terms don't even mean anything. There are women who pose as "assistants" but are taking a cut from the escorts they "manage" and exploit them in various ways. I think we're running around in circles honestly. No we can't be sure that someone who isn't super vocal online (surely my pimp would be wasting a lot of their fucking time of I had one lol) isn't being exploited.. but once you find out that they are, just make sure they're ok..

 

[Flabert]

Looks like this thread is not about XO anymore lol.

It is about how to avoid this problem with personal or population actions

 

[AnthonyAnderson]

Other point i wanted to mention... Remember Bianca White? Super high end indy (for Montreal) and indy. Yet she was arrested for "pimping" and other crimes.... She was arrested in September and we heard nothing. Could still be in jail

Yes we do remember! She`s most likely not in jail. The norm in Canada is that you are out on bail (en liberté sous caution avec certaines conditions) during the judicial process. We don't know if she pleaded guilty or not. The whole process from charges being laid to conclusion of the case can easily take 1-2 years. Not sure the media will give us updates on her case though.

 

[Lunaseraphim]

There's nothing you can do as a client aside from advocating for decrim and for sex worker's rights.

What you can do is change the way you treat sex workers, and the way you perceive us and our services. You can realize that you're paying us for our time (not for the number of minutes you're fucking us and getting your dick sucked) and that our services are valuable. You can also change your personal relationship to the idea of hiring a sex worker.. A lot of people feel guilt and resentment, and it's really unhelpful. ''No matter what, it's abuse anyways, so might as well turn a blind eye''.. or ''I'm angry that I can't get this for free, and I'm going to act as bitter and vengeful as possible'' are not really great attitudes.

I have a long list of things that are to be considered but I don't want to attract animosity.

 

[Flabert]

There's nothing you can do as a client aside from advocating for decrim and for sex worker's rights.

What you can do is change the way you treat sex workers, and the way you perceive us and our services. You can realize that you're paying us for our time and that our services are valuable. You can also change your personal relationship to the idea of hiring a sex worker.. A lot of people feel guilt and resentment, and it's really unhelpful. ''No matter what, it's abuse anyways, so might as well turn a blind eye''.. or ''I'm angry that I can't get this for free, and I'm going to act as bitter and vengeful as possible'' are not really great attitudes.

I have a long list of things that are to be considered but I don't want to attract animosity.

You have not attracted animosity and won’t by sharing your thoughts. People value your opinion even if they don’t all agree 100%.

I think decrim for customers would help customers act if they see something not right. Hard for a potential criminal to call police when a worst crime is underway (coercion, etc.)

 

[ginaflash]

Am not making any recommendations here, just saying the govt might want to stick its nose in hygiene even though it decriminalizes sexwork.

It could be as trivial as ensuring that condoms are available, conditions are appropriate (“regulation 23-3.4-xx a functional shower offering water between 40 and 70c must available to clients and providers”).

Of course the govt might want to ensure that sex workers are tested - most likely if confronted by a moral panic (I envision Maria Mourani shriek for this). Testing clients would be more logistically complicated but who knows what they would consider.

TYSM for giving me more details on your thoughts, it would actually make a lot of sense and would be of great benefit to providers in a way since lots of people have to work in less than sanitary spaces (broken showers, mold, not enough utilities for everyone). From what I've heard it can be even worse in places that are for trans/queer mp (again I navigate mostly into massage parlours atm so yeah, speaking about what I know, have access to present experience wise).

There are a couple of org that make sure to distribute condoms / lube and other safety / sex health stuff to parlours, providers, etc. We are free to use our own as well ofc ! Just so you know ^^

I wish there was better sex ed in schools and everywhere in general so that EVERYONE has more knowledge about sex health and safety and a tendency to go get a screening every 3 months at least hihu what a beautiful world it would be.

 

[ginaflash]

There's nothing you can do as a client aside from advocating for decrim and for sex worker's rights.

What you can do is change the way you treat sex workers, and the way you perceive us and our services. You can realize that you're paying us for our time (not for the number of minutes you're fucking us and getting your dick sucked) and that our services are valuable. You can also change your personal relationship to the idea of hiring a sex worker.. A lot of people feel guilt and resentment, and it's really unhelpful. ''No matter what, it's abuse anyways, so might as well turn a blind eye''.. or ''I'm angry that I can't get this for free, and I'm going to act as bitter and vengeful as possible'' are not really great attitudes.

I have a long list of things that are to be considered but I don't want to attract animosity.

this, 100%

 

[Verbal Kint]

I remember seeing an SPs who I haven't seen for a long time and she used to be at XO. I just mentioned I have no idea what happened to XO and she said the owner became a drug addict and that was the downfall of the agency. Another SP another told me that the booker didn't stop asking her to join an orgy when she didn't want to. I remember XO organizing some orgy party but apparently it was only for the ''loyal'' clients, I wonder if those events went well or the sexual assaults might be where it comes from?

I remember around the last times I used XO, a moment freaked me out. The agency knew my username here and that I was a regular. One day, they contacted me and they called me by my first name. I never shared my full name beside the SPs. I asked the last SP I saw if she mentioned me by my full name and she said no, she doesn't know how whoever contacted knew my first name.

Another thing, I noticed was when booking and arriving at the door, they ask us to just enter and not knock. I suspected that was because neighbour noticed multiple door knocking for the same door and raised suspection. At that time, it was the only agency that asked me to do that. So this fit with the neighbour getting suspicious.

I been doing this activity since I was 18yo and now I am 37yo. Even with all those years, I never knew the ''behind the scene'' of this business.

Really disappointing to read this, I hope for the best for the victims.

Something was definitly fishy when they dropped off the Agency listing here. I did see an Sp who moved on to another agency telling me some spooky stuff about them. That being said, I never had a bad encounter, nor was feeling watched. If you had any of your buddies who was selling weed in their teens; it is always the gateway to getting cut, besides being careless or dumb. Neighbors notices paterns. People get bored, people like a good ol fashion drama. So imagine when they see frequent comming and going in their block/neighborhood... That being said. If I have to trade off my phone number being in some police book vs helping under age exploitation; I will gladly accept the trade-off.

And Remember... If you pay and have a camera present. Porno isn't a vice crime... (Be gents though, leave it off.)

 

[EagerBeaver]

Yes we do remember! She`s most likely not in jail. The norm in Canada is that you are out on bail (en liberté sous caution avec certaines conditions) during the judicial process. We don't know if she pleaded guilty or not. The whole process from charges being laid to conclusion of the case can easily take 1-2 years. Not sure the media will give us updates on her case though.

Yes, in all likelihood her charges are still pending and when there is some disposition of her charges, whether through a pretrial resolution, a guilty plea, a conviction, or defense verdict, it will hit the news cycle again. If you do a search she is dabbling in many other businesses and has her own website, so her position as escort agency owner is merely one of many different businesses. These include, according to her website, real estate investment, medical spa and aesthetics, online content creation, day trading, and finance and financial consulting. She claims on her website that her net worth is $4 million, so presumably she can pay for top notch attorneys who will handle these charges and get her a very good disposition, such as some community service and a period of probation as well as some drug counseling.

 

[Lunaseraphim]

You have not attracted animosity and won’t by sharing your thoughts. People value your opinion even if they don’t all agree 100%.

I think decrim for customers would help customers act if we see something not right. Hard for a potential criminal to call police when a worst crime is underway (coercion, etc.)

Decrim has a lot of advantages, including the one you named.

One thing I've noticed is that not everyone who has bad behavior as a client is truly a horrible person, often bad behavior is enabled by peers. Certain types of behavior and certain expectations are normalized.

I'll give a personal example which is very mild compared to a lot of things colleagues have told me lately. There is a client who left a bitter comment on my review thread, he says he was disappointed, in a very vague way. I was really weirded out by this and I did a lot of research. I ended up finding out that he saw a friend of mine because he wrote a review for her, and I found out who he is that way. It turns out I had seen them over half a year before he left the comment, but I remembered the booking. This person was so rough with me sexually that I was in pain, and I dissociated through it. I clearly was not enjoying myself and I guess I should have pretended and been really enthusiastic despite wanting to cry from being in pain.. Personally, I don't think that's normal, but maybe after seeing the way guys talk about their bookings, he thought it was.

People put pressure for free hang outs, they normalize not leaving and using terms like ''clock watcher''.. I think a lot of people don't realize how coercive reviews can be. A lot of my friends have been told ''I'll give you a good review if you do this'' or ''I'll give you a good review if you tell me your colleagues real names or show me pictures of their faces''. People also often get threatened with bad reviews, even by clients they haven't actually seen, or they get bad reviews by clients who couldn't push boundaries.

I think maybe we should question doing things like constantly complaining about rates, about women's weight and age, pressuring for certain types of services, complaining about things that are normal etc. As a customer your voice is being heard online by sex workers and by their employers. You have power as a client. The way you talk about things online impact us.. Maybe it's time to decide it's not a super great idea for girls under a certain age to be in this industry.

If you know a large cut is being taken from our pay and that we have to see several guys in a row, maybe be lenient and consider tipping.. It's details like this that matter.

There's often talk on this forum of ''girls not truly working'' if they are not fucking their client the whole time.. which has actually led to many guys asking for part of the money back and making threats. There is a trend of guys being VERY late or leaving early and threatening the girl with LE or other vague BS to retrieve part of the money or all of it. That's really scary, imo. I'm just using examples. I know how a lot of things that have been said on this forum affected me.

 

[Lunaseraphim]

It's not just clients who are criminalized.. We could be as well, for ''soliciting''. Also, like I said, the law allows a lot of different people to be considered pimps. According to the law, I am not allowed to work with another provider. A landlord could also kick me out if I hosted from home. It's not sunshine and rainbows for us, either. The law is made to be very complicated because it's not truly meant to help sex workers.

 

[Halloween Mike]

Yes we do remember! She`s most likely not in jail. The norm in Canada is that you are out on bail (en liberté sous caution avec certaines conditions) during the judicial process. We don't know if she pleaded guilty or not. The whole process from charges being laid to conclusion of the case can easily take 1-2 years. Not sure the media will give us updates on her case though.

I meant i was expecting the charges to be dropped and her resuming her work by now. Since she has not i assume its more serious.

 

[2fast2slow]

Well, technically, the moment you pay someone for sex it is a kind of ''class abuse'' where you use your economical power to use the body of someone that is systemically oppressed by the context of its state of class inferiority. The only way you can really be ok with this is because you would be alienated by your class consciousness as a member of the proletariat.

i disagree with that. That is a stereotype. I've been doing this a long time and most of the women i have seen are fully in control of their bodies and have made a very mature, informed and concious choice to "share" their bodies, for a "fee". Of course a lot of women have also "fallen" into the industry while NOT being in control. Both situations coexist.

Also, allow me to add that the power imbalance is not always in the favour of the men. Not discussed at all ever here, but how many men are lonely, depressed, isolated and desperate. They could be "addicted to sex". They will overpay and leave feeling completely empty. They put women on a pedestal and crave even the slightest hint of affection....In those contexts, which I believe is more frequent than discussed, I beleive the women have more "power".

Long story short, in a perfect world it would always be 50-50, but unfortunately we are not there yet. You are offering physical intimacy for a fee, I appreciate this offer and take advantage, all while trying to be the best "gentleman" I can be.

And sharing your body for a fee is not that radical a thing. When we go see a therapist we share our most deep inner thoughts. When you get a colonoscopy, 3 medical professionals are in the room looking up you ass

I have seen massage therapists, psychologists, physical therapists, chiropractors, osteopaths, etc...None have the healing power of a good sex worker, that's power.

 

[Verbal Kint]

Decrim has a lot of advantages, including the one you named.

One thing I've noticed is that not everyone who has bad behavior as a client is truly a horrible person, often bad behavior is enabled by peers. Certain types of behavior and certain expectations are normalized.

I'll give a personal example which is very mild compared to a lot of things colleagues have told me lately. There is a client who left a bitter comment on my review thread, he says he was disappointed, in a very vague way. I was really weirded out by this and I did a lot of research. I ended up finding out that he saw a friend of mine because he wrote a review for her, and I found out who he is that way. It turns out I had seen them over half a year before he left the comment, but I remembered the booking. This person was so rough with me sexually that I was in pain, and I dissociated through it. I clearly was not enjoying myself and I guess I should have pretended and been really enthusiastic despite wanting to cry from being in pain.. Personally, I don't think that's normal, but maybe after seeing the way guys talk about their bookings, he thought it was.

People put pressure for free hang outs, they normalize not leaving and using terms like ''clock watcher''.. I think a lot of people don't realize how coercive reviews can be. A lot of my friends have been told ''I'll give you a good review if you do this'' or ''I'll give you a good review if you tell me your colleagues real names or show me pictures of their faces''. People also routinely get threatened with bad reviews, even by clients they haven't actually seen.

I think maybe we should question doing things like constantly complaining about rates, about women's weight and age, pressuring for certain types of services, complaining about things that are normal etc. As a customer your voice is being heard online by sex workers and by their employers. You have power as a client. The way you talk about things online impact us.. Maybe it's time to decide it's not a super great idea for girls under a certain age to be in this industry.

If you know a large cut is being taken from our pay and that we have to see several guys in a row, maybe be lenient and consider tipping.. It's details like this that matter.

There's often talk on this forum of ''girls not truly working'' if they are not fucking their client the whole time.. which has actually led to many guys asking for part of the money back and making threats. There is a trend of guys being VERY late or leaving early and threatening the girl with LE or other vague BS to retrieve part of the money or all of it. That's really scary, imo. I'm just using examples. I know how a lot of things that have been said on this forum affected me.

We do suck sometimes. We might think because we paid for a service, we get to own it. If you go to a restaurant and start breaking glasses, this will not be tolerated! And we're talking about human beings. I'm not pointing any fingers but rough porn seems to be normalized lately as well.
To each their own, but I don't know what fuck is up with that. Are we making a return to having submisive fuck doll is that what we want?
If you do, make sure the Sp is on board with that.

Communication before hand is key.
I dont do rough stuff. Never liked it. I had ladies ask me to switch position or to stop because... Doesn't matter the reason. Consent comes into play!
And yes sometimes we finished our time by different means. One time She got up and gave me 30min worth of my time back. It's not from me being rough, she was hurting while on top. I did appreciate it, but would never have stoop to ask.
Also, I had tremendous and horrible encounters in this hobby. It is the name of the game. I have left good and terrible reviews about sp. But i'ts not nor will it ever be about performance. It's all in the attitude, the general hygiene, or if the transaction was legit or not.
I don't aproach my waiter telling them I will leave a google review depending on gratuities or impecable service...
I do hope you girls talk to one another in order to avoid those clients.