Our National Pastime: 2015 Baseball Thread
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I actually like the Tigers... and the Mets as they are currently constructed. Love the Blue Jays as well! Big fan of future Yankee Giancarlo Stanton so interested in the Marlins as well. Not a fan of the Cardinals and never have been, a boring team and now the ne patriots of MLB.
Go Yankees!
Go Yankees!
Boys,
Proof Pete Rose Bet As A Player
Newly revealed evidence show Pete Rose not only bet as a player, he also made bets involving his own team. I've never doubted this. Anyone with a gambling addiction will use any advantage he has. It shows what Rose did and that he has been lying about it all these years. A gambling addiction, lying about when he bet and on whom he bet on...I would say someone like that couldn't help trying to alter a game purposely to win a bet somewhere during his career, and if so then it wasn't just once.
Entries in long-hidden notebook show Pete Rose bet on baseball as player
http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_...ines-shows-pete-rose-bet-baseball-player-1986
For 26 years, Pete Rose has kept to one story: He never bet on baseball while he was a player.
Yes, he admitted in 2004, after almost 15 years of denials, he had placed bets on baseball, but he insisted it was only as a manager.
But new documents obtained by Outside the Lines indicate Rose bet extensively on baseball -- and on the Cincinnati Reds -- as he racked up the last hits of a record-smashing career in 1986. The documents go beyond the evidence presented in the 1989 Dowd report that led to Rose's banishment and provide the first written record that Rose bet while he was still on the field.
"This does it. This closes the door," said John Dowd, the former federal prosecutor who led MLB's investigation.
The documents are copies of pages from a notebook seized from the home of former Rose associate Michael Bertolini during a raid by the U.S. Postal Inspection Service in October 1989, nearly two months after Rose was declared permanently ineligible by Major League Baseball. Their authenticity has been verified by two people who took part in the raid, which was part of a mail fraud investigation and unrelated to gambling. For 26 years, the notebook has remained under court-ordered seal and is currently stored in the National Archives' New York office, where officials have declined requests to release it publicly.
Dowd, who reviewed the documents at Outside the Lines' request, said his investigators had tried but failed to obtain Bertolini's records, believing they would be the final piece in their case that Rose was betting with mob-connected bookmakers in New York. Dowd and his team had sworn testimony from bookie Ron Peters that Rose bet on the Reds from 1984 through 1986, but not written documentation. Dowd also had testimony and a recorded phone conversation between Bertolini and another Rose associate, Paul Janszen, that established that Bertolini had placed bets for Rose. But Dowd never had the kind of documents that could cement that part of his case, especially in the eyes of fans who wanted to see Rose returned to Major League Baseball.
"We knew that [Bertolini] recorded the bets, and that he bet himself, but we never had his records. We tried to get them. He refused to give them to us," Dowd said. "This is the final piece of the puzzle on a New York betting operation with organized crime. And, of course, [Rose] betting while he was a player."
The documents obtained by Outside the Lines, which reflect betting records from March through July 1986, show no evidence that Rose, who was a player-manager in 1986, bet against his team. They provide a vivid snapshot of how extensive Rose's betting life was in 1986:
• But on 21 of the days it's clear he bet on baseball, he gambled on the Reds, including on games in which he played.
• Most bets, regardless of sport, were about $2,000. The largest single bet was $5,500 on the Boston Celtics, a bet he lost.
• Rose bet heavily on college and professional basketball, losing $15,400 on one day in March. That came during his worst week of the four-month span, when he lost $25,500.
Dowd said he wished he'd had the Bertolini notebook in 1989, but he didn't need it to justify Rose's banishment. Under MLB Rule 21, "Any player, umpire, or club or league official or employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which the bettor has a duty to perform shall be declared permanently ineligible."
...
"The rule says, if you bet, it doesn't say for or against. It's another device by Pete to try to excuse what he did," Dowd said. "But when he bet, he was gone. He placed his financial interest ahead of the Reds, period."
...
In April, Rose repeated his denial, this time on Michael Kay's ESPN New York 98.7 FM radio show, that he bet on baseball while he was a player. "Never bet as a player: That's a fact," he said.
continued...
What a shame. More people seemed to be coming around to excuse Rose in view of what seems to be the much greater offenses around steroids. Now he comes off as the kind who would lie about anything to get back into baseball.
Very sad,
Merlot
Proof Pete Rose Bet As A Player
Newly revealed evidence show Pete Rose not only bet as a player, he also made bets involving his own team. I've never doubted this. Anyone with a gambling addiction will use any advantage he has. It shows what Rose did and that he has been lying about it all these years. A gambling addiction, lying about when he bet and on whom he bet on...I would say someone like that couldn't help trying to alter a game purposely to win a bet somewhere during his career, and if so then it wasn't just once.
Entries in long-hidden notebook show Pete Rose bet on baseball as player
http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_...ines-shows-pete-rose-bet-baseball-player-1986
For 26 years, Pete Rose has kept to one story: He never bet on baseball while he was a player.
Yes, he admitted in 2004, after almost 15 years of denials, he had placed bets on baseball, but he insisted it was only as a manager.
But new documents obtained by Outside the Lines indicate Rose bet extensively on baseball -- and on the Cincinnati Reds -- as he racked up the last hits of a record-smashing career in 1986. The documents go beyond the evidence presented in the 1989 Dowd report that led to Rose's banishment and provide the first written record that Rose bet while he was still on the field.
"This does it. This closes the door," said John Dowd, the former federal prosecutor who led MLB's investigation.
The documents are copies of pages from a notebook seized from the home of former Rose associate Michael Bertolini during a raid by the U.S. Postal Inspection Service in October 1989, nearly two months after Rose was declared permanently ineligible by Major League Baseball. Their authenticity has been verified by two people who took part in the raid, which was part of a mail fraud investigation and unrelated to gambling. For 26 years, the notebook has remained under court-ordered seal and is currently stored in the National Archives' New York office, where officials have declined requests to release it publicly.
Dowd, who reviewed the documents at Outside the Lines' request, said his investigators had tried but failed to obtain Bertolini's records, believing they would be the final piece in their case that Rose was betting with mob-connected bookmakers in New York. Dowd and his team had sworn testimony from bookie Ron Peters that Rose bet on the Reds from 1984 through 1986, but not written documentation. Dowd also had testimony and a recorded phone conversation between Bertolini and another Rose associate, Paul Janszen, that established that Bertolini had placed bets for Rose. But Dowd never had the kind of documents that could cement that part of his case, especially in the eyes of fans who wanted to see Rose returned to Major League Baseball.
"We knew that [Bertolini] recorded the bets, and that he bet himself, but we never had his records. We tried to get them. He refused to give them to us," Dowd said. "This is the final piece of the puzzle on a New York betting operation with organized crime. And, of course, [Rose] betting while he was a player."
The documents obtained by Outside the Lines, which reflect betting records from March through July 1986, show no evidence that Rose, who was a player-manager in 1986, bet against his team. They provide a vivid snapshot of how extensive Rose's betting life was in 1986:
• But on 21 of the days it's clear he bet on baseball, he gambled on the Reds, including on games in which he played.
• Most bets, regardless of sport, were about $2,000. The largest single bet was $5,500 on the Boston Celtics, a bet he lost.
• Rose bet heavily on college and professional basketball, losing $15,400 on one day in March. That came during his worst week of the four-month span, when he lost $25,500.
Dowd said he wished he'd had the Bertolini notebook in 1989, but he didn't need it to justify Rose's banishment. Under MLB Rule 21, "Any player, umpire, or club or league official or employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which the bettor has a duty to perform shall be declared permanently ineligible."
...
"The rule says, if you bet, it doesn't say for or against. It's another device by Pete to try to excuse what he did," Dowd said. "But when he bet, he was gone. He placed his financial interest ahead of the Reds, period."
...
In April, Rose repeated his denial, this time on Michael Kay's ESPN New York 98.7 FM radio show, that he bet on baseball while he was a player. "Never bet as a player: That's a fact," he said.
continued...
What a shame. More people seemed to be coming around to excuse Rose in view of what seems to be the much greater offenses around steroids. Now he comes off as the kind who would lie about anything to get back into baseball.
Very sad,
Merlot
Fuckin A smuler...Of course I do. Father's day 1974 Lolich and the Tigers beat the KC Royals 3 to 2 after 11 innings and Lolich pitched all 11 innings and struck out 9 and threw 174 pitches for his 9th complete game in a row.....Trusty Rusty and his batting glove and running glove...loved that left handed hitter and good guy. Both of them. I saw the Mets play the Tigers at Spring Training. I think next year is the satrt of their time. Cubs too.
I like the Yankees, Red Sox, Blue Jays, and Mets. I have been in all those stadiums but Toronto and I will go to Toronto to see the Tigers play a day game and hobby at night!
I just want to know who you guys think ought to be on the all star team.
The NL was easy. I thought there were clear cut favorites for every position. The AM league is not so easy.
Men,
I made my choices 2 weeks ago.
I already had Bogaerts of Boston who has improved steadily.
Cheers,
Merlot
I made my choices 2 weeks ago.
I already had Bogaerts of Boston who has improved steadily.
Cheers,
Merlot
Very good. I would have added Cespedes at the OF and the Toronto Catcher what's his name who is having a good year. i think ARod deserves consideration at DH.
How about pitchers? I'll take Sonny Gray and Chris Sale, and Robinson and Betance along with the KC 8th, and 9th releif options. I just checked and Sale and Gray are 1 nad 2 in WHIP.
For the NL
1B - Phil Goldschmidt Arizona .356, 19 HRs and 12 SB and 57 RBIs
2B - Dee Gordan Miami .356 and 24 SB
SS - Jhony Peralta Cards - .311 and 11 HRs and40 RBIs -
3B - T Frazer Cincin - 23 HRs.....seen enough on his bat this year.
C - Molina Stl Cards - .295 and a great catcher. Hundley from Colorado
OF Bryce Harper Washington - .345, Aoki .317 SF; and Marte Pitt 12 HRs
Men,
Hungry, there are better DH options than Rodriguez on merit. Then again, a guy with his record comes back from a whole year off and hits boomers I've heard have usually been fairly deep. That doesn't sound right even with that homer alley in right. Plus I like guys who can hit for good average (make contact) more often. Hell, Hanley Ramirez has more homers than A-Rod with 30 points better on his BA and I wouldn't go near that guy as an All-Star.
I'm not sure how many starting pitchers or relievers to pick but I looked at ERA, WHIP, WAR, Innings, Wins. In the AL I like Sonny Gray and Chris Sale. Also give me Chris Archer, Dallas Keuchel, Felix Hernandez. For relievers I'd take Glen Perkins (Minn), Zach Britton (Balt), Andrew Miller (NYY), Huston Street (LAA), Brad Boxberger (TBR), Gregg Holland (KCR). All have held on to save games at 90% or better.
Cheers,
Merlot
Hungry, there are better DH options than Rodriguez on merit. Then again, a guy with his record comes back from a whole year off and hits boomers I've heard have usually been fairly deep. That doesn't sound right even with that homer alley in right. Plus I like guys who can hit for good average (make contact) more often. Hell, Hanley Ramirez has more homers than A-Rod with 30 points better on his BA and I wouldn't go near that guy as an All-Star.
I'm not sure how many starting pitchers or relievers to pick but I looked at ERA, WHIP, WAR, Innings, Wins. In the AL I like Sonny Gray and Chris Sale. Also give me Chris Archer, Dallas Keuchel, Felix Hernandez. For relievers I'd take Glen Perkins (Minn), Zach Britton (Balt), Andrew Miller (NYY), Huston Street (LAA), Brad Boxberger (TBR), Gregg Holland (KCR). All have held on to save games at 90% or better.
Cheers,
Merlot
Probably right about Arod. The clear choice is Seattle's Cruz.
for relievers you forgot Betances and Robinson. I have to see what Robinson has done but you could pretty much take the yankees and KC bullpen (number 1 in both leagues http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/team/_/stat/pitching/split/128) with Gray, Sale and Keuchel...King Felix is always a good choice.
I like a strike out back inning bullpen guy. Betances is lethal and makes batters look silly. I wish we had him. He and Miller have identical stats but Betances somehow has a higher WAR. David Robinson is still pitching wellwith the White Sox.
for relievers you forgot Betances and Robinson. I have to see what Robinson has done but you could pretty much take the yankees and KC bullpen (number 1 in both leagues http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/team/_/stat/pitching/split/128) with Gray, Sale and Keuchel...King Felix is always a good choice.
I like a strike out back inning bullpen guy. Betances is lethal and makes batters look silly. I wish we had him. He and Miller have identical stats but Betances somehow has a higher WAR. David Robinson is still pitching wellwith the White Sox.
I think you meant Dave Robertson. He was a close call for me to replace Boxberger. One source must have showed me the wrong ERA on Betances of a little under 3.0, now on checking again I see 0.26. Yup, it looks unbeatable this year but he has only 4 Saves. Not so impressive unless he's mainly a setup guy instead of a closer. I thought he is a closer? But yeah, with that ERA he's got to go.
Bad news for Boston, I noticed Koji has done fairly well but he has already made 40 relief appearances. NOT GOOD!
Cheers,
Merlot
I think you meant Dave Robertson. He was a close call for me to replace Boxberger. One source must have showed me the wrong ERA on Betances of a little under 3.0, now on checking again I see 0.26. Yup, it looks unbeatable this year but he has only 4 Saves. Not so impressive unless he's mainly a setup guy instead of a closer. I thought he is a closer? But yeah, with that ERA he's got to go.
Bad news for Boston, I noticed Koji has done fairly well but he has already made 40 relief appearances. NOT GOOD!
Cheers,
Merlot
No I think The closer for the Yanks is Miller and the set-up guy is Betances. The save stat is an ass and I think it is maybe the worst stat in all of sports. One inning and all you have to do is give up 2 runs or less?
Yes the White Sox reliever - Robertson.
OUCH!
(Future NYY) Giancarlo Stanton is on pace for 60HR's and 150 RBI's and you do not include the games top HR hitter as a starter in the ASG??? You must be so busy trying to make your schedule work so you can attend a certain little party soon that you totally forgot about one of the games best young players. Ok, i will forgive you THIS time mon ami,
(Future NYY) Giancarlo Stanton is on pace for 60HR's and 150 RBI's and you do not include the games top HR hitter as a starter in the ASG??? You must be so busy trying to make your schedule work so you can attend a certain little party soon that you totally forgot about one of the games best young players. Ok, i will forgive you THIS time mon ami,
Pete Rose the player should be in the Hall Of Fame. Pete Rose was the player who did the MOST with the least talent. He was 100 percent Charlie Hustle.
I had the opportunity of watching many games he played in both with the Cincinnati Reds and Philadelphia Phillies. Rose was the heart of the Big Red Machine with Joe Morgan, Johnny Bench, Tony Perez, Dave Concepcion, George Foster, Ken Griffey, Sr., Cesar Geranimo, and their Skipper Sparky Anderson. The good teams back then were the Reds, Pirates, Dodgers and Phillies in the National League. Oakland A's, New York Yankees and Baltimore Orioles in the American League. Cincinnati won back to back World Series in 1975 and 1976.
Rose holds the all time MLB records for Games 3562, Plate Appearances 15890, At Bats 14053, Hits 4256 in 24 years as a player. He had a lifetime .BA of .303:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/rosepe01.shtml
I had the opportunity of watching many games he played in both with the Cincinnati Reds and Philadelphia Phillies. Rose was the heart of the Big Red Machine with Joe Morgan, Johnny Bench, Tony Perez, Dave Concepcion, George Foster, Ken Griffey, Sr., Cesar Geranimo, and their Skipper Sparky Anderson. The good teams back then were the Reds, Pirates, Dodgers and Phillies in the National League. Oakland A's, New York Yankees and Baltimore Orioles in the American League. Cincinnati won back to back World Series in 1975 and 1976.
Rose holds the all time MLB records for Games 3562, Plate Appearances 15890, At Bats 14053, Hits 4256 in 24 years as a player. He had a lifetime .BA of .303:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/rosepe01.shtml
OUCH!
(Future NYY) Giancarlo Stanton is on pace for 60HR's and 150 RBI's and you do not include the games top HR hitter as a starter in the ASG??? You must be so busy trying to make your schedule work so you can attend a certain little party soon that you totally forgot about one of the games best young players. Ok, i will forgive you THIS time mon ami,
That is the guy I forgot. Yes, Stanton was on my ballet. But I want to the Americal League to win anyhow (which wont happen if we send the entire Royals squad...well, still could but is less likely to.)
He bet on his teams to win. He wasn't throwing games...if he were I would of sent a motivational speaker to talk to him.
https://screen.yahoo.com/matt-foley-halloween-000000426.html
As he often used proxies to place his bets, I don't see how one can be sure that he only bet on his teams to win. Even if so:
He didn't bet every game and bet differing amounts when the did. Presumably, he used the inside information he had on the physical and mental states of his players. His bookie could have noted when he was more or less confident. For example, he would have been tempted to think short term instead of long term in managing. E.g. Overuse his best reliever in a game in which he had a financial stake.
http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2014/08/why-pete-rose-still-cant-be-absolved/378866/
He didn't bet every game and bet differing amounts when the did. Presumably, he used the inside information he had on the physical and mental states of his players. His bookie could have noted when he was more or less confident. For example, he would have been tempted to think short term instead of long term in managing. E.g. Overuse his best reliever in a game in which he had a financial stake.
http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2014/08/why-pete-rose-still-cant-be-absolved/378866/
Boys,
Maybe you can explain the relationship between huge stats and whether or not that determines anyone has cheated, lied, or otherwise attempted to alter the game itself. So his numbers are great, just like A-Rod's. By your standards Alex should get in on the first ballot even though you and your two Yankee pals stated cheaters should be banned permanently. Stats say nothing about character or if someone cheated. We know Charlie 100% Hustle lied about many things already....big stats or not.
No one can be sure. As a compulsive gambler it's certainly possible he could have talked himself into throwing a game he might have considered meaningless as an opportunity to clean up. A guy who made such a big effort to lie about not betting on the Reds certainly could be lying about betting against them for a big payday. Remember it doesn't have to be about winning and losing. It could be shaving some stats one way or another, and any other type of bet where he could have more control of the outcome.
Merlot
Maybe you can explain the relationship between huge stats and whether or not that determines anyone has cheated, lied, or otherwise attempted to alter the game itself. So his numbers are great, just like A-Rod's. By your standards Alex should get in on the first ballot even though you and your two Yankee pals stated cheaters should be banned permanently. Stats say nothing about character or if someone cheated. We know Charlie 100% Hustle lied about many things already....big stats or not.
No one can be sure. As a compulsive gambler it's certainly possible he could have talked himself into throwing a game he might have considered meaningless as an opportunity to clean up. A guy who made such a big effort to lie about not betting on the Reds certainly could be lying about betting against them for a big payday. Remember it doesn't have to be about winning and losing. It could be shaving some stats one way or another, and any other type of bet where he could have more control of the outcome.
Merlot
Boys,
Maybe you can explain the relationship between huge stats and whether or not that determines anyone has cheated, lied, or otherwise attempted to alter the game itself. So his numbers are great, just like A-Rod's. By your standards Alex should get in on the first ballot even though you and your two Yankee pals stated cheaters should be banned permanently. Stats say nothing about character or if someone cheated. We know Charlie 100% Hustle lied about many things already....big stats or not.
Merlot
I said Pete Rose as a Player, not as a Manager should be in the Hall of Fame.
Pete never cheated as a player. Pete is no Tom Shady Brady (a known cheater). :lol:
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