"Please remember what a masssage place is legally supposed to provide" MOD 11

[YouVantOption]

From another thread, not the first time:

"Parts removed. Please remember what a masssage place is legally supposed to provide when doing reviews"

This is apparently a new policy here. For years, we have been forthright and complete in the details of what goes on in massage parlours, and suddenly, we are being edited.

I have to wonder why. It isn't as if MPs are any different from Escort services that claim to provide 'companionship' and coincidentally, the girls all seem to want to sleep with all their companions. Frankly, I think this new stance by MERB is a little silly, and I'd ask that the MODs discuss this and reconsider.

The policy does nothing to prevent LE from going to any MP they wish to bust and experiencing things for themselves, and since virtually every MP in the city, with a handful of exceptions offers, at the very least, hand jobs, the presence here or elsewhere of complete (dare I say it?) explicit reviews has an infinitesimally small impact on the cops intent or ability to affect a bust. What this does do is lower the value of the reviews, and this board.

Thanks for reconsidering.

 

[Time to Punt]

To say nothing of reviews of incall places which would theoretically have the same legal status with respect to providing sexual services.

 

[Mod 11]

Incalls are a known fact. They all provides exactly the same type of service, they are not in a gray zone so, they requires no special protection. Incalls don't have a defined official place of business with outside signs and don't work under a legal business umbrella, they are 100% illegal.

MPs don't all provide the same service and the YMMV factor is way wider. They are mostly all working under the cover of a legal business and have real place of business that doesn't vary. Often, you'll see signs outside. They rarely work out of some motel rooms. Even then, those who don't fall into these generalities need the poster's discretion even more to avoid undue attention because their legal status is almost nonexistent.

We had MPs who were known to offer exceptionally good service but had to ask for NRP because some members were over-enthusiast in their reviews. This caused some other members to go there and demand the same mileage. The end result was either a NRP or the mileage at these places had to go down to near zero for everybody.

We had MPs who simply closed shop because of some members reading here that so and so had X done, they were resorting to threats in order to get always more and more mileage.

We had MPs who closed shop because of "anonymous complains" to LE drawing too much attention. MPs are also reading these boards, not just members and LE. Some low mileage MPs reading that a competitor is making them loose money by being too open is often the "anonymous complaint" raising LE's eyebrows.

So, what do members prefer?

• Be a little less entusiastic when writing a review and share juicy details with trusted members only, ensuring by doing so that the party won't end too soon or...
• Giving by-the-minute description with all the sexy details, risking to put the MPs in trouble, risking seeing the mileage go to zero for everybody, risking the MPs asking for a NRP, risking the place to close or even, risking getting cought in a police bust themselves?

That's the point of my edits. It never been done before because the time wasn't there to do it with only one mod available. Even now, it's possible I miss some. Members also have to realise, each time I have to do an edit, even if the exact content of the edit isn't visible anymore, some suspicion is still there so, it would be even better if members themselves would be careful, without any intervention.

You guys also noticed there is no suspension attached to these edits. There's no plans to change this. We are only asking people's collaboration to keep the fun going.

It's better to have fun under the radar than have no fun in the open.

 

[Time to Punt]

So essentially the massage parlours have collectively asked for this policy, then ? Ok I assume there were complaints. I also bet there will always be guys that demand above and beyond at massage parlours and there will always be MP's playing "dirty tricks" on competitors.

Having fun "under the radar" does make boards less and less relevant though since the main funtcion of the board was originally to provide the radar.

One has to note that there is only one massage parlour advertiser here so at least that is not a motivation.

 

[YouVantOption]

So, what do members prefer?

• Be a little less entusiastic when writing a review and share juicy details with trusted members only, ensuring by doing so that the party won't end too soon or...
• Giving by-the-minute description with all the sexy details, risking to put the MPs in trouble, risking seeing the mileage go to zero for everybody, risking the MPs asking for a NRP, risking the place to close or even, risking getting cought in a police bust themselves?

Since you asked, I'll go for number two. If all of these supposed consequences are to be believed, and I am of the opinion that they are not, then they would have already happened to some degree. there are reviews on at least two other boards that I can think of off-hand, and on the predecessor of this board, CANBEST.

This no more imperils the sanctity of MERB than the rest of the posts.

As to some MERB members using a review here as leverage, this isn't going to stop it. First, there are the massive amount of legacy reviews. Also, someone can 'lie'. There were plenty of instances of MERBites threatening SPs with bad reviews for discounts. There are always going to be lame a-holes who pull crap like that. Besides which, do you think LE and other MPs can't read between the lines of words like 'full menu available'?? That is as dumb as saying 'I'd like to buy some ski equipment' when trying to buy cocaine on the phone. Nah, cops are too dumb. They'll never figure that out. ...

I disagree with this new idea, and request, again that it be stopped. It devalues this board.

 

[Mod 11]

YVO, you don't think these consequences happen? Think again.

• Risking to put the MPs in trouble: How many MP are no longer around or "moved to a new place" who is known to be less restrictive? Maybe they got fired from the other place? Maybe the trouble the girl is facing is customers bullying around with statement like "MERB said you do that so that's what I want".? We want MPs to learn about MERB in a good way so they can use it to increase their business, not as something they need to know so they can stop peoples from talking about them. We want them to understand MERB can provide them with quality customers, not arrogant bastards who always demand more.
• Risking seeing the mileage go to zero for everybody: Isn't there a Vague post about something like this lately?
• Risking the MPs asking for a NRP: Check the NRP thread.
• Risking the place to close: I wonder why there are closure sometimes... Might be just economics but might be pressure by LE to tone things down while boards' pressure ask for services to go up. Or maybe some just get busted?
• Or even, risking getting cough in a police bust themselves: It's not because we don't ear about it that it doesn't happen. How would you feel if it happened to you? Wouldn't you have preferred peoples to stay discrete about the extras instead of saying FS was available for very cheap? How many guys go to the various MPs versus the number of MERB members? Do all little busts make it to the major newspaper's headlines? It takes only one time to get picked in a bust to cause you trouble for a long time. The more cops have their nose rubbed in the extras, the more they might get tempted to bust the place. One post is all it takes them to tilt the scale, same as with Mods who are borderline to banning members. As far as cops, why not try to avoid having MERB tilting the scale? MD is right, having MERB discussed in legal paper isn't good for anybody so, why not try to keep it out?

 

[Tim Horny]

If a lady provides deluxe service to only her favorite clients, she may stop providing these services if every client starts to demand the same. She may not be willing to provide to everyone the same level of service. My experience is that sometimes it takes 4 or 5 visits and there has to be chemistry between the masseuse and client before a prefered client status is established.

 

[Time to Punt]

... the fact to discuss and promote something illegal could be harmful to Merb finally, and could conduct to the end of it or put his owner in trouble....

Will people who want "all the truth" will be advantaged at the end???

That's "funny" that people who can't have any consequence can push the limits...

Personnaly, I think to promote or to help to promote "illegal most under radar LE situation" could be a reason to LE to incriminate an owner's board, but I am not a lawyier, but I think to be carefull is always good, in any situation.

Maria I would agree with you , however, incall escort establishments are every bit as illegal as massage parlours that offer "extras". Yet there is a different censoring policy regarding them it appears. The merb policy is vey inconsistent for the reasons explained by Mod 11

 

[Johnny Walker]

Could we be shooting ourselves in the foot by posting too much info. If a lady offers only a good massage and maybe a happy ending, we may be putting pressure on her to do things that she is not willing to do. If we post too much info. have notice that there seems to be less ladies that offer a good theraputic massage around these days. Some of the masseuses may not appreciate their private business being posted on the net.

 

[YouVantOption]

YVO, you don't think these consequences happen? Think again. MD is right, having MERB discussed in legal paper isn't good for anybody so, why not try to keep it out?
[/LIST]

MD is an SP whose opinion should not even be allowed to be posted to such a thread since she has a competitive and vested interest in the topic.

If you are certain that you are right, then please clean all of the threads that have, for the past four years, included such information, based on all of the anecdotal information you suggest supports your approach.

And I, as a user of these boards, who has contributed hundreds of such reviews, will tell you anecdotally the alternative, that girls have thanked me for putting up reviews, because it drove business their way.

But let's not play both sides of the fence here. If this is a new policy then make it a policy and remove all historical postings, and start suspending people who contravene it.

Or, drop the editing and let's move on.

Can't have it both ways, I'm afraid.

 

[Just_Jay]

Tipping tells all

I have written many reviews and I shy aware from giving out detailed descriptions of the level of mileage received. At the same time I believe in making the readers aware of what to expect.

When I read a review that states

Weak massage and tipped $100, I know what that means

Great massage skills, very open services, tipped $100. I know what that means

Tipped $80 and feels like I got a bargain, I know what that means


As the current rate structure goes, tips in ecxess of $80 would tell me that the services go beyond normal thai.

If I ever wrote a review that was highly detailed, such as

Put the condom on with her mouth
Banged her front and back
Felt so tight etc.

You can be sure that I would have no desire to see her ever again. To me it shows a lack of respect for the MP and I could care less about her, but others might like the services.

The tipping inference is not 100% accurate but would work in the vast majority of cases.

 

[Time to Punt]

[*]Risking the place to close: I wonder why there are closure sometimes... Might be just economics but might be pressure by LE to tone things down while boards' pressure ask for services to go up. Or maybe some just get busted?
[*]Or even, risking getting cough in a police bust themselves: It's not because we don't ear about it that it doesn't happen. How would you feel if it happened to you? [/LIST]

Ok either I'm missing something or you are. Please explain the legal difference under the current prostitution laws between an incall and a MP that offers extras. If they are the same then your above points make little sense given what is allowed to be written on this Board about incall.

If there is a difference , I for one am all in favour of being educated.

 

[Mod 8]

Hello everyone,

The main difference between incall and Massage parlors is that most MPs are registered, legal businesses. Incall agencies are not and operate in a gray area on the fringes of legality. They know that they are taking a risk and choose to assume that risk and the possible consequences that may arise.

When a new policy is instituted, it is rarely retroactive and we have no intention of going through every post ever made in the massage section to edit out possibly objectionable content. This would be a very time consuming and generally pointless exercise. When changes were made in the NRP, I did not go back through the thread and re-evaluate each NRP according to the new rules. As things stand at the moment, there is no firm new policy in place and things are more in a testing phase in regards to MP reviews. If and when a new policy is decided on, it will be posted in a sticky and added to the MERB rules and posting guidelines.

There are a number of MPs in the NRP thread. When a MP requests a NRP, it is granted without question. If members reviews continue to get increasingly graphic it will most likely lead to more NRPs being requested and granted. Of course if this happens, we will then be seeing a number of new complaints about the NRP policy being granted to MPs and on and on it will go. Of course, the moderators have no interest in getting into yet another NRP discussion which will end as all the others have ended after a number of pages rehashing what has already been gone over many times before.

As far as other boards are concerned, we have no control over their policies and really have no interest in any case in what they do or what is posted there. Considering the number of reviews posted on both blue boards combined, they are hardly a factor in any decision made on MERB.

A number of posters have shown how reviews can be written to get their point across without getting into graphic details. I suggest that members take it as a creative challenge. I will continue to monitor this thread to see what other members have to say. Everyone is welcome to make their views known in this thread. I have no interest in turning this into a legal debate about the differences between incall and MP. I am not a lawyer nor are any of the other mods and we will not get into this sort of discussion. If you wish to make a statement, keep it on topic and incall operations are not the topic of this thread and have no bearing on any decision we may make in regards to massage parlors or independant massage providers.

Thank you,

Mod 8

 

[OnUrGspot]

Hello everyone,

The main difference between incall and Massage parlors is that most MPs are registered, legal businesses. Incall agencies are not and operate in a gray area on the fringes of legality. They know that they are taking a risk and choose to assume that risk and the possible consequences that may arise.


Thank you,

Mod 8

This may be true but, LE also knows girls can rarely massage a full hour, so they are aware of the happenings with the time left after the initial 30 min massage. Having said this, most MPs are also on the fringe, registered or not, a mere HJ is also illegal, nude Thai as well. Le is aware of this and don't be fooled that they don't read abbreviations & acronyms for the "options" and "menu". They have a very good idea of the goings on.
Mps are in the grey zone and have been for a very long time.

Many massage places business cards read ie: Members of the A.M.T.M.C, Certified Therapists, offering Swedish, Sports, Relaxation, just to name a few.
Just looking at the so called therapists as a client walks in is a "red" flag, they look nothing like the "white smocked" legal therapists. Furthermore, advertising the types of massage I mentioned above, what would they say if LE went in and a "nude Thai" teasing, Russian finish or HJ was offered? you get the point.

They know the deal, they just don't care if no complaint was made. Some MPs here in Mtl also have to have municipal licence and if their service is erotic.Also some municipalities do not allow erotic massage.

Just my opinion

DA_

 

[Time to Punt]

Thanks for the explanation. While you are perhaps correct in saying message places are legally registered ( in Ontario they are licenced by municipalities) what this implies is that Montreal LE ignores hand releases (handjobs) but not if release by any other means.

Odd how these things develop isn't it as the logic just isn't there unless you are Bill Clinton.

 

[EagerBeaver]

Please explain the legal difference under the current prostitution laws between an incall and a MP that offers extras. .

I have no interest in turning this into a legal debate about the differences between incall and MP. I am not a lawyer nor are any of the other mods and we will not get into this sort of discussion. If you wish to make a statement, keep it on topic and incall operations are not the topic of this thread and have no bearing on any decision we may make in regards to massage parlors or independant massage providers.

The only thing I would add to this is that there is a tendency by posters who do not understand the law or how it is enforced to focus on subtle differences in the written law as opposed to how the law is enforced. There are many laws in all jurisdictions that are never enforced. There are other laws that are enforced. How and why certain laws get enforced are usually a matter of common sense.

Take the examples of two Asian MPs in CT. I will call them MP #1 and MP #2. I was at one time or another a customer of both before deciding to cease my hobbying activity in CT. Both operated within 25 miles of each other and the same laws applied to each. One (MP#2) is now shut down and the other (MP#1) continues on in business never having been bothered by LE in the last 10 years.

MP#1 figured out 2 things that MP#2 never figured out: (1) you get a location where you can discreetly operate and never have NIMBY complaints (in their case, an entirely walled in old factory building with no immediately proximate neighbors); and (2) you legally donate money to every local police charity you can think of and you let the local police know about said donations. By posting on your back door about it if necessary.

MP#2 did not figure these things out which are really matters of common sense. They operated in a crowded mixed commercial and residential area behind a Dunkin Donuts. Their front door was clearly visible from the DD drive thru line. They bused their ladies in in the morning in vans, something I could see even while eating breakfast from the Burger King across the street. They did not donate to the necessary charities.

It's just like any other business. Those who are smart survive and make money, those who are dumb and stupid go out of business and get shut down, and don't make money before that happens.

 

[Mod 8]

Hello TtP,

There was a case in Toronto in 2007 where the subject of a hand release was brought before the courts and the court basically did all but state that this was not considered to be an illegal act and the case was dismissed. It is highly likely that other local authorities are unwilling to waste the time and money to bring a similar case before the courts here where that decision will surely be used by the defense.

http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/255176

So yes, I am implying that Montreal LE as well as other jurisdictions will ignore hand releases.

M8

Thanks for the explanation. While you are perhaps correct in saying message places are legally registered ( in Ontario they are licenced by municipalities) what this implies is that Montreal LE ignores hand releases (handjobs) but not if release by any other means.

Odd how these things develop isn't it as the logic just isn't there unless you are Bill Clinton.

 

[sinbad]

I don't get this whole discussion. For years we've been reviewing strip clubs (which are legal businesses) and including all kinds of YMMV details which are definitely illegal practices in Quebec. The so called FS clubs are still open (e.g. Frontiere, Hilltop, Sexpert). LE cannot use what some bozo wrote on MERB in court as evidence, and they don't need MERB to know what's going on in neighborhood clubs. Surely the same applies to MPs?

sinbad

 

[Mod 8]

Hello sinbad,

Certain activities are tolerated in certain locations. The Frontiere and Hilltop are not located in downtown business areas or in residential areas. If they were you could be certain that they would have been shut down a long time ago.

While posts cannot be used as evidence in court, they can be used to give LE the idea of what services to look for from what girl at what MP. And then follow up on this to bust both her and the parlor. This is the same reason that we ask posters to be discrete when posting certain information about dancers in non FS clubs. There have been occasions in the past where MERB posts have almost certainly led to girls losing their jobs or lowering their level of service in strip clubs after certain information has been posted here.

All we are asking is that members use a bit of discretion when writing their posts as the comments they make may very well be the last time anyone is able to see a particular massage provider, or dancer in a club, because the comments may lead to her losing her job or getting busted.

M8

I don't get this whole discussion. For years we've been reviewing strip clubs (which are legal businesses) and including all kinds of YMMV details which are definitely illegal practices in Quebec. The so called FS clubs are still open (e.g. Frontiere, Hilltop, Sexpert). LE cannot use what some bozo wrote on MERB in court as evidence, and they don't need MERB to know what's going on in neighborhood clubs. Surely the same applies to MPs?

sinbad

 

[sinbad]

All we are asking is that members use a bit of discretion when writing their posts as the comments they make may very well be the last time anyone is able to see a particular massage provider, or dancer in a club, because the comments may lead to her losing her job or getting busted.

M8

I absolutely agree with this statement. My original point was that I didn't see why it was only MPs that needed discretion. I think it should apply to all forums, and not because of LE but because of repercussions from employers. However, that said, this board would be pretty useless if posts were routinely censured by mods.

sinbad