Pourquoi l'anglais

[ManAboutTown]

In the end, you post to be read, you post to be understood, and more than likley to entertain and inform your audience. If your intended audience is french, then post in french and good luck to you. If you intend to inform visitors or english locals, post in english. Post in either, and I will probably read it.

Tourist information is most useless is only available in the local language. Most tourists don't speak it.

MATt

 

[EagerBeaver]

Wow, though I went cross-eyed after reading half of this thread (and am rather impressed that we were able to rack up such a wide range of rants in the span of two days... ), I would just like to chip in with my two cents in the ongoing "discussion" of franco-anglo politics.

First of all, Omega, I being a native Montrealer read (and for the most part understood) the intricacies of your original post. You have every right to be proud of your language, and like it or not for us native anglos, Quebec did win the right to make french the only official language long ago. I also realize the dangers of gradual erosion of french in eastern Canada if strict measures were not put in place to require french to be spoken first (if I didn't have to at my job, I would probably greet clients in english first too...) However MERB was created by anglos and does not reside in any particular province. Granted it's reviews are based here in Montreal, but the beauty of the WWW is that those Quebec language laws do not reach into the cyber domain, a fact I am grateful for.

A lot of posts have gone back and forth about people who don't speak french or english either out of ignorance or obstinance, but we are neglecting a third fraction (of which I am a member): those who were simply lousy at languages to begin with. I was born and raised in an anglophone household, yet took french immersion all throughout my primary schooling, and indeed had french courses from ages 5 to 18 (a fact I am thankful for). Despite 13 years of "advanced" french classes (that's right, I actually have my bilingual certificate in the highest level of classes), I still have an intermediate level of french at best and write at the level of an 8th grader. I mean it's just pathetic, I can solve some of the most complex mathematical, engineering, or artistic problems, yet I can't put together a well-written french sentence. However I don't let it deter me from trying: the clients I serve at my job all realize I am doing my best, and I refuse to switch into english even if I sound like a fool and they change to english to help me (and let me just state that less than 20% of them ever do).

So by all means be proud of your language and post in it if you so choose, and if the majority of posters here on MERB are francophone and feel inspired to post in french, do so as well. But to all members here please do me the favor of not bashing each other's languages or spouting tired federalist/separatist rhetorics, it is true that the french landed here first, but let us not forget the land was neither yours nor the british, it belonged to the innocent native americans you both collectively slaughtered in your grand quest for expansion. As a black man myself I am oddly thankful for slavery in a way, since without it I would be sitting in a loin cloth sharpening a spear, but nothing riles me up more than the descendants of slave-trading, arrogant and self-righteous colonists complaining about ownership of something that wasn't theirs to begin with. Be glad the penalties for past atrocities do not seem to be retroactive beyond WW2 and everyone just be thankful that we live in a continent that is wealthy enough to provide the means to gripe at each other in such a speedy fashion.

Raven out
P.S.: J'espere que MERB va continuer a demeurer un endroit libre ou les personnes avec similaire interets peuvent s'exprimer avec un peu de classe. Ca serait dommage si les politiques de la monde exterieure infecte cette nouveau monde electronique qui est encore dans son enfance. L'internet est une chance pour les personnes des quatre coins du monde a s'engager et decouvrir des esprits semblables...

Ravencroft's post is the most sensible and logical one I have read in this entire thread. Of course, those who have posted in French are not reaching me because I don't speak French. I am an educated Anglo American, but I took Spanish rather than French in school, and as previously mentioned the only time I ever hear French spoken is when I travel to Montreal.

Ravencroft's bottom line point, and one made by some others, is that MERB is located in cyberspace and its creators were Anglophones, not Francophones. This is an irrefutable point. And if we went by the logic of some of the other more hypocritical posters in this thread, then the official language that should be spoken in Montreal is the Amerindian language spoken by the natives who were savagely displaced by French and British INVADERS of their land.

I also enjoyed reading The Snark's very strong rebuttal of BackDoorMan's post. After reading The Snark's rebuttal, I am left wondering if Quebec were to separate, gain its sovereignty and lose those federal monies that come in from the other Canadian provinces, what would it bring to the table economically other than a thriving escort industry? I haven't travelled through much of Quebec, but people who have tell me that when you get outside of Montreal, much of Quebec is underdeveloped, depressed and similar in many ways to third world countries. What industries, besides tourism and sexual tourism, would support Quebec if it became its own country?

 

[Techman]

Eb

Don't worry about it. If Quebec separates we will legalize drugs and prostition and become the Amsterdam of North America Of course you will have to speak French because all of the anglos will have left and some recent reports have already compared our streets with those of third world countries so we have a head start in that respect.

 

[Techman]

I think the real reason of why Quebec is not independant yet, it is not the cash and the ethnic vote.....it is because of Techman and french "canadians"...

Thank you for the compliment

 

[ManAboutTown]

The funny part is post referndum economics is a very slippery thing. First and foremost, what becomes of the Canadian dollar the day after a yes vote? I would suspect world traders would be getting out of the $cad as fast as rats off a sinking ship (you can see my opinion of currency traders right there), lowering overall the value of $cad, canadian real estate, and raising the costs of imports (such as oil).

When Quebec seperates, it would need it's own currency. Let's call it the "Peso" for discussion purposes (you will see why in a minute). With little in the way of reserves to support it, and huge existing debts (both provincial existing bonds plus portion of federal debt) and of course the diminished value of the $cad would put the peso into an interesting position. Likely it would have to be "hard pegged" to some other currency, likely the $cad to start with, although Canada might not be happy about that.

Think life sucks now? Try going to florida when you need 20,000 quebec pesos to buy a big mac in Lauderdale - and your yearly salary is only 50,000 pesos.

Extreme? The economic implications are insane! The best news is that strippers, MPs and SPs will be cheap as hell in US dollar terms.



MATt

 

[B1G]

to EB and SMack
I havent travelled much in the states but once on my way to my uncle's, who lives in Massetchuettes (forgive the spelling on that one) I saw a lot of 'wood shacks' for homes that seemed like under develloped regions. I'm sure every state or province has it's share of under develloped regions along with Big well developped cities. I have not seen them for myself but I here the suburbes of New York aren't exactly civilized!

I have family in 'other parts' of Quebec, and I can tell you these people are alot more civilized, and upright citizens then most people in big cities and I can tell you they are far from 'third world countries' !

I can't believe how people can be so incensitive @#%$#^

 

[B1G]

This discussion is repulsive !!!! enough of this garbage on an escort review board...Nobody is being repressed or having their rights violated..period!!...Its just immature dimwits with huge egos..thats the only problem in Québec..

MODS !!..its time for KILL mode...close this THREAD !!!

SA

Actually, SMACK, reading what you have to say, and the way you react to things that don't suit your taste. I am sure that if your ways and language were threatened you would be alot worst then we are (refering to what you just called us)



By the way, there are alot of threads here on MERB. Why is it that people who aren't interested in 'pourquoi l'anglais' keep on 'clicking' on the link ?

 

[EagerBeaver]

B1G,

Aside from appearances the more important question is what industry or industries are going to support an independent Quebec? It is my understanding that a lot of businesses have fled Montreal and Quebec to Toronto and Ontario for various reasons including language laws, and although Montreal was once the financial capital of Canada, that status is now ancient history. Irrespective of whether an area looks like a third world country, it actually will become one if the above question cannot be answered. That is the point I was trying to make. And I am sure your relatives are upstanding citizens and good Catholics, but if they care about Quebec and their future in it, they should be asking and trying to answer these questions, rather than ignoring them.

The other point you are missing is that Tennessee and West Virginia and some other "boondock" states are not threatening to leave the USA so they are never going to have to face the same questions. You are right about the way some of those areas look, but they are not ever going to leave the USA so it's an irrelevant comparison.

 

[Techman]

Boondocks

The major thing about the people living in the boonies is the fact that, and this is not meant to be an insult, they tend to be uneducated small town people. Life for them will not really change if Quebec is independant. They vote yes in referendums because they have been brainwashed to believe that the rest of Canada wants to strip them of their culture and language. No one has any interest in destroying the French language or Quebec culture. In fact after separation they will become more important as Quebec farmers will become the major source of food for the population due to the fact that it will be very expensive to import anything from outside of Quebec. The major change will be in Montreal where the new government will be trying to control a population that has no wish to separate. I believe it was Parizeau who said that after a winning referendum the new government would likely have to suspend civil rights for a time to ensure a smooth transition. Whose civil rights would be suspended? Not those who voted yes. So for a time, Quebec would become in effect a police state and Montreal would become a city under very tight control. Of course any separatists here will refute this. I am not talking about soldiers in the streets at first, but it may eventually come to this. Then there is the Raymond Villeneuve factor. There are some idiots here who will declare open season on Anglos and their institutions. I think that the night of a winning reverendum will make the Richard riots in Montreal seem like a pleasant memory.

 

[EagerBeaver]

Techman,

Very interesting analysis. The thought of travelling to Montreal and seeing armed soldiers on St. Catherine St. sends shivers up my spine. This would not be good for tourism!!

 

[B1G]

Hey ,as far as separation is concerned, I never was and probably will never be for it. I'm no expert on provincial economics so I will refrain from commenting on what the results of a separation would be. But logic just seems to say, "what good will it do for somthing big (Canada)to turn into somthing small (Quebec)?"

EB: I got a bit fired up, and it might have been uncalled for. But all I saw in your post (at first) was you saying I come from an under develloped 'third world like' city..... Anyways I get your point now

 

[EagerBeaver]

The other side of it is that there are a number of unilingual Anglophone posters, myself included, who are eliminated from the discussions that take place exclusively in French. Fortunately, whenever I have asked for translations of isolated French posts here and there, someone has always been kind enough to do so, but in this thread there is just too much to translate and I think that is why this thread has gone so far afield. This thread sort of underscores the problem with trying to communicate in multiple languages in one thread. There has probably been a lot of misunderstanding/miscommunication on both sides.

 

[G1GBallday]

Then there is the Gilles Villeneuve factor.

If that means no more speed limits, I'm voting YES on the next referendum.

Techman I'm sure you meant Raymond Villeneuve.

 

[ManAboutTown]

omega, if you believe the OLF, french was seriously in danger this week because the new Best Buy that opened distributed some paphlets (premade from head office) that were not french.

Welcome to Quebec, new retailer that will open nearly a donze stores this year, your opening day will be filled with the OLF storm troopers checking every inch of your store and dragging the media around with them to show off your faults.

Anyone wonder why few companies really want to expand here?

MATt

 

[Techman]

G1g

Yup. Thanks, I edited my original post and marked the reason for the edit

A thought occured to me today and I figured I should post it here before it died of loneliness
If there was a referendum with todays federal gov't in place, and the separists won, what would happen? Due to the separation of Quebec, all mp's from Quebec would have to resign as you can not have members of parliament from what would now be a foreign country. While that would be no big deal in the case of the Bloc, who are actually a waste of taxpayer's money as it is because they could never form a gov't, all liberal mp's from Quebec would also have to resign. Including the Prime Minister. So the rest of Canada would have to call an immediate election. Even if they didn't, for whatever reason that I may not be aware of, I don't think the rest of Canada would want a Quebecer negotiating the terms of separation with Quebec. Has anyone ever heard this point come up for discussion anywhere as personally I cannot recall ever hearing this mentioned?

 

[cargo]

The major thing about the people living in the boonies is the fact that, and this is not meant to be an insult, they tend to be uneducated small town people. Life for them will not really change if Quebec is independant. They vote yes in referendums because they have been brainwashed to believe that the rest of Canada wants to strip them of their culture and language. No one has any interest in destroying the French language or Quebec culture. In fact after separation they will become more important as Quebec farmers will become the major source of food for the population due to the fact that it will be very expensive to import anything from outside of Quebec. The major change will be in Montreal where the new government will be trying to control a population that has no wish to separate. I believe it was Parizeau who said that after a winning referendum the new government would likely have to suspend civil rights for a time to ensure a smooth transition. Whose civil rights would be suspended? Not those who voted yes. So for a time, Quebec would become in effect a police state and Montreal would become a city under very tight control. Of course any separatists here will refute this. I am not talking about soldiers in the streets at first, but it may eventually come to this. Then there is the Raymond Villeneuve factor. There are some idiots here who will declare open season on Anglos and their institutions. I think that the night of a winning reverendum will make the Richard riots in Montreal seem like a pleasant memory.

Techman,

Please, if you want to debate on this, make some valuable comment instead of keeping a low debate like this. You are spreading all the stupid BS propaganda on the back of people who have different opinion than yours. Now the civil right abolition, oh! please! send me the citation of this sentence. It's more easy to believe and spread some sentence like this, even if you never heard of it, when they fits what you think: spreading fear against independance is a good thing. In a debate, you have to respect the opposite parts: they are not only poor people on the welfare who are manipulated by some senseless leaders, as i read already. They are not just a bunch of idiot. They have valid argument too. If a solid 40% of quebecer want to be independant, they must be reason for that. Instead of spreading the usual "fear sentence cliché", try to understand them.
As i said before, i am not and i don't want to be an ambassador of independantist, but i don't like this attitude that, in Canada, when it concern independantist, there is no problem: you can bash every crappy thing on their back because they are, in the eye of federalist, "mean separatists".
If you want to keep them in the same country, what about using a civilized speech in respect with, as you wish, your fellow citizen. If you hate them so much, just let them go.
I just want to add that USA are born with a bunch of guys who wants to separate from one of the greatest empire of the moment.

 

[Techman]

cargo

Actually I believe that the issue of temporary suspension of civil rights, not abolition, was mentioned in Jacques Parizeau's book. It is not something I invented out of thin air. I am in fact looking for this quote and will post the source here when it is found. As far as idiots go, I have not called anyone an idiot other than the pseudo terrorists who follow Raymond Villeneuve and those like them. It is very easy to push old people around when they are wearing a mask and are afraid to show their faces in public while they chant separatist slogans. I have great respect for the people in the outlying areas, especially the farmers who live a very hard life. But life will not change for them in a separate Quebec. As far as hating separatists is concerned, I believe I have good reason: I lost many friends in the exodus that followed the PQ and their referendums including a special lady whose place in my life has never been filled. Montreal went from being the financial center of Canada to what it is today, a city struggling to come back to life that can only attract business by giving them large subsidies. And like others here, I remember seeing armed soldiers on the streets of Montreal and I never want to see this again. Quebec is my home and I will not be pushed out and I am not a federalist, I am a Canadian. The favorite chant of separatists is "Le Quebec aux Quebecois" and I think that says it all. For our American readers who would like a little background click on this link it may help you understand
where this started http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/quebec.htm

 

[EagerBeaver]

Techman,

Thank you for the very good link to the historical summary. Although I have heard much about this Bill 101 in other threads, this link nicely pulls the history together. I was unaware that the Minister of Labor was murdered by terrorists and that martial law was imposed in Montreal in 1970. Very scary!

It seems to me that the separatist issue should be decided democratically by the people of Quebec. However, from what I have read and heard from educated locals, if I were a Quebec citizen, I would vote against separation unless someone can explain what industry or industries are going to make up the shortfall in federal subsidies currently received by Quebec. The language laws have already caused Montreal to lose its status as financial center of Canada, and it seems to me that separation would simply accelerate that disturbing trend of losing businesses to other provinces, that are seemingly not being replaced.

 

[Techman]

Eb

I agree that the issue should be decided democratically by the people of Quebec. The only problem is that the separatists will not ask a clearly worded question. This is the question from 1995 where the separatists nearly won:
"Do you agree that Quebec should become sovereign, after having made a formal offer to Canada for a new economic and political partnership, within the scope of the bill respecting the future of Quebec and of the agreement signed on June 12, 1995?" .
The problem is that the agreement mentioned had nothing to do with the gov't of Canada. It was an agreement signed by the three separatist parties of Quebec about a bill passed by the separatist gov't of Quebec. It isn't difficult to ask a simple question, Do you wish to separate from Canada and form a new country called Quebec with no political or economic ties to Canada? This question will not win them their country so it will never be asked.

 

[EagerBeaver]

Pierre Laporte

Techman,

After reading the link you provided I was interested in reading more about Pierre Laporte, the Quebec Labor Minister who was murdered in 1970 by the FLQ terrorists.

Laporte was a journalist for Le Voir for 16 years before starting his political career in 1961. He was a member of the Liberal Party. He lived somewhere called Saint Lambert. On the day of his kidnapping, October 10, 1970, he was playing soccer on his front lawn with his family when he was kidnapped in broad daylight by the FLQ terrorists. His dead body was found a week later in the trunk of a car. The cause of his death was listed as "accidental strangling", although I don't understand how strangling is accidental when you gag someone and stuff them in the trunk of a car for a week. In any event the FLQ terrorists who kidnapped and killed him were all caught and sentenced to long prison terms.

It's not really clear to me why Laporte was kidnapped as opposed to any other politician at the time. Perhaps you can shed some light on that?