Preferred411 - Referral site questions

[WilliamStub]

Hi guys and gals;

Perhaps some of you can shed some light on this for someone a bit less experienced. I am heading out to San Francisco next month and was looking to setup some time with a companion. I am not very price-sensitive, and would rather concentrate on having a good time.
Some of the escorts in the USA seem to have a P411 badge on their website (ie like here: https://liararoux.com/). This leads to a Preferred411.com verification website. I've seen some members (Patron?) post links to that site for reviews, but haven't found any thread discussing it.

I'm not that completely paranoid about giving my info out for verification... but I would totally prefer and use something more streamlined if it is trusted by both SPs and Johns. Does anyone on either side have experience using the site? Is it useful/trustworthy?
I was reading on Catalina Rose's site that it has changed ownership last year (https://catalinarose.co/preferred-411/)

If these questions have already been asked, please point me to the relevant threads.

Thanks you answering!
W.

 

[Dave in Phoenix]

Yes, I am very familiar with P411 and have had huge disagreements with long time former owner Gina who lives in the Toronto area.

I hosted the Phoenix Private E-mail List that at its peak had about 3000 subscribers by private e-mail and about 500 of them were escort/companions.

It is well known that P411 has been used for busts and in the early day I worked with Gina when gals reported suspicious referrals etc. However, that changed at some point where for her business reasons was hiding LE activity using P411.

We had a number of cases in Phoenix that it seemed clear when police would arrest a gal that was listed on P411 they would take her phone, pretend to be the gal and use to entrap guys or in many reports provide fake references for other P411 gals that were actually undercover LE.

I have no information on the new owner but P411 is well known by LE in the US I have seen it listed in probable cause statements in the many felony court cases I use to follow in Phoenix.

After FOSTA, I understand she was taking no new guys and seemed to be on the way to shutting down. But I do not know the current status.

Remember the US is not Canada. LE gets huge funding to do stings on private consenting adults. San Francisco however, is probably the safest city being liberal and not going crazy with stings like in most of the rest of the U.S.

 

[Dave in Phoenix]

Patron - LE is very smart on doing stings sadly. They will make up fake business references and when you call you they will be confirmed as an employee - but your talking to a cop pretending to be with a company. Of course its not a real company so could be discovered as specious if tried to look it up on Goggle etc. Also they have fake DL with the beginning code I understand (I don't know it) that they are LE but gal would never know .

It was quite easy for them to get approved by P411 it seemed.

I know very high end (like $500+/hr) that have been busted and went to jail for the mandatory 15 days in jail on the 1st offense. One called me afterward describing her time in our infamous Sheriff Joe's Tent City cold in winter and hot in summer. This 15 days also applies to customers.

Whenever two or more work together like a phone person, driver, agency, massage parlor its a felony with serious prison time not just short time in jail. I have followed maybe cases with 100 total escorts convicted - most take plea deals for probation but still an arrested felon. The Phoenix Goddess Temple I have over 200 updates on their case of 35 wonderful women. All pled except the founder who just got out of prison after 5-years. Also many agencies and massage places.

In the U.S. screening very important since with the legal situation, clients can be dangerous. We had a client that choked to the point of passing out and thought they were dying - we knew of 12 victims but everyone was too scared of LE to report the rape, assault and stolen property. I finally got involved and contacted LE - long story but very wonderful head of vice took it seriously and I got victims to come forward and they were treated wonderfully - some were hysterical after the attack. Long story they found him and he is now serving about 100 years in prison. I have extensive details on my site. Bad guy had goons that threatened a victim that moved to CA. She frantically called me like at 2AM and I contacted the DA and they offered her witness protection when she returned to Phoenix to testify.

We also had lots of fake cops as customers - free sessions or would arrest them. I had pictures from security cameras at one massage parlor case I put out on my Private List. Lots of other bad stuff when it is so illegal in the US.

Then there is TER. As many folks may know I was one of two victims of the founder Dave E. who hired a hit man to break my legs and potentially kill an escort. It is well known by LE! Fortunately, the hit man was an undercover cop. I got an almost unbelievable call from the special crimes officer on a Sunday afternoon and met with the supervisor and "hit man" who came to my home the next day. It's a very long story as he left the US to Iran with his gun touting wife and then lured back to Phoenix via Mexico and arrested at the border and convicted. I have the very long details on my site and it was written up by the New York Times which I talked to only after being assured he would not name me directly.

All this also explains my love for Canada and do not participate in the US!

 

[Dave in Phoenix]

Patron - you must have lived here in Phoenix or had close friends. The Desert Divas case with customers - was it close to 100 or more customer list published in the local paper and on TV decades ago. I think I still have it saved. That was the first major felony bust in Phoenix with many more to follow. The founder was very key in luring TER founder Dave E back to Phoenix to be arrested in my case.

A funny thing about the raid is he kept bragging LE would never get into his computer. It turned out all it had for security was a fingerprint reader (very rare that long ago). So when they arrested him just dragged him to his computer and press on the reader!

Amazingly with the TERB founder, Dave E bust the well known (and attractive) vice lady that helps in many stings put out a post on a big Las Vegas escort board announced she was Phoenix PD vice and since Dave E was active in LV and with immunity wanted escorts to come forward to file rape charges against him. He often told escorts in LV and Phx in order to have reviews stay on Terb he had to come to his LA home and "service him". Phoenix PD considered that against their will and a form of rape.

The owner of the LV board called me to see if this could really be Phoenix police? I confirmed it was and she had also called me and I agreed to put out her notice on my Phoenix Private List which went to about 500 escort/companions. No came forward, however.

This female cop I also heard on the stand in some trials I attended and reported on. She was very honest even with facts that helped the defense. Too bad she is on the wrong side other than with Dave E... She is the perfect decoy for stings since attractive etc.

At the Phoenix Goddess Temple case, that was in court for 5-years and I was at many of the hearings, once when I had not attended for a while, the judge at a break said she missed me and welcome back! She knew I reported for the Private List without any concern (First Amendment Rights) other than not to report anything that would violate the ID of undercover cops as witnesses etc. After about a six month trial the jury convicted in about two hours. But the judge was very fair and let the leader sing, go on for hours with her goddess stuff, etc, She claimed religious freedom which I had warned her would not likely work as a defense.

The defense witnesses included some very well known folks like Dennis H - famous Nevada brothel owner, now deceased. He testified that looking for donations after a session was no way to run a brothel! He grew up in Mesa AZ and although I would never visit his brothels or how they were run, I had nice conversations with him.

Also, the founder of the Institute for Advanced Human Sexuality (San Fran) did a lot of defense testifying including how he was called upon by the military to provide prostitutes for US warships from Isreal. I was standing next to him when he got the call from the military putting him on active duty (he was retired) and ordering him to immediately take a military plane back to Ca (or he may have been living in Nev at the time) after hearing his public testimony. Before on the stand, he said the same thing to the DA who interviewed him before the trial as I understand from what he told me.

At another case, when I was the only visitor on the defendant's side of the Court the judge asked who I was. I just explained I was reporting for a certain group and he said I was welcome.

Like in Canada it's rare but we do have legitimate underage sex trafficking etc. If LE would just use their resources to go after real creeps like on the blackweb instead of sites that are almost all private consenting adults. But there is a huge amount of funding since every bust regardless if factual or not is promoted as stopping sex trafficking.

Sorry if I get too long with stories I do tend to ramble

 

[WilliamStub]

Honestly - just the idea that there could be sting operations in the US for prostitution between consenting adults is simply bonkers to me. I mean don't the cops in Phoenix (and really... anywhere!?) have anything better to do than to bust people for having sex? I mean if I was a cop, I'd rather deal with parking tickets...
Sometimes it feel like the USA could use a bit more European libertine impulses, and maybe a bit less paranoia. Where did Woodstock go... Make Love Not War .

In all cases, I think it's pretty enlightening for me that screening would encompass law enforcement, and Hannah - I didn't realize you needed to provide your personal ID to those services too (feels a bit useless if you ask me -- all we want to know is if you're a good provider - none of us care who you are, so it doesn't make much sense to me unless it's for weeding out LE).

It feels to me that all this reinforces the need for a legitimate and trusted central location / referral system. I'd be a lot more comfortable giving my ID to a lady that was referred to me, just as I'm sure the same lady feels more comfortable meeting with me if she has a referral herself. Why we don't have a more established referral service (both ways!) for the oldest profession in the world seems completely crazy to me. This is a legit area where "blockchain" could be more than just a dumb-ass buzz-word every venture capital bandies on about and do some actual practical good. ie: Your "anonymous" token needs to register with your SP's token before seeing each other and you're both bound by the reviews you give each other in a public forum that maintains anonymity to both parties. The whole system is otherwise transparent and public so it can't be subverted by an individual for sexual favors or LE sting operations. Okay maybe a little too nerdy of a rant... but honestly -- if we had any system that would make SP customers suddenly as polite as they are when riding in an Uber, I think both sides would benefit greatly.

W.

 

[CLOUD 500]

Honestly - just the idea that there could be sting operations in the US for prostitution between consenting adults is simply bonkers to me. I mean don't the cops in Phoenix (and really... anywhere!?) have anything better to do than to bust people for having sex? I mean if I was a cop, I'd rather deal with parking tickets...
Sometimes it feel like the USA could use a bit more European libertine impulses, and maybe a bit less paranoia. Where did Woodstock go... Make Love Not War .
.

You are talking about the US here, the center for right-wing conservatism. Enforcing bible social morality behavior rules is more important to them then busting on the real criminals. Prohibition is the name of their game. Fact is in the US the bible has a strong influence on society and Americans are big time prudes. I do not understand why would anyone want to see escorts there. Go elsewhere - Europe, Canada, South America. Not worth the hassle and the risk of getting arrested not to mention the overly inflated prices. Until Americans move away from The Bible and right-wing conservatism nothing will ever change, maybe after a hundred years it might change and that is if people stop electing right-wing conservative politicians. Consider this they got no money for universal healthcare but got billions for the military. They let the billionaire class exploit their employees but oh boy you book an escort you committed the biggest sin.

 

[Dave in Phoenix]

Honestly - just the idea that there could be sting operations in the US for prostitution between consenting adults is simply bonkers to me. I mean don't the cops in Phoenix (and really... anywhere!?) have anything better to do than to bust people for having sex? I mean if I was a cop, I'd rather deal with parking tickets...W.

Many cops don't like it either but they have to follow orders from on high. And the anti-sexwork groups like Polaris and many others have given large grants to local LE to fund their crusade against "sex trafficking" which gets lots of donations since it sounds so evil but includes stings on consenting adults.

In Phoenix, Ms. McCain (as in wife of now deceased war hero Senator) leads the battle in AZ. She got a state law that makes it a felony to assist or promote "prostitution" which was enough to shut down all the local boards for sharing information in fear of the law. Lots of funding going into groups all over the US to fund LE stings.

From the LE perspective would they rather chase women with big dangerous breasts or a real criminal with guns that go bang?

 

[CLOUD 500]

Patron,

It is the same for Canada. Each province enforces prostitution the way they want. For example the Prairie provinces are very conservative and Ontario and Quebec are liberal. Saskatchewan banned all stripclubs. Imagine that. But all states of the US are in general conservative. Places like San Francisco are more liberal but compared to The Netherlands or Spain there is no comparison.

 

[Dave in Phoenix]

You are talking about the US here, the center for right-wing conservatism. Enforcing bible social morality behavior rules is more important to them then busting on the real criminals. Prohibition is the name of their game. Fact is in the US the bible has a strong influence on society and Americans

Actually, there was nothing wrong with the non-goddess worshiping common prostitution in the bible, which was very common. In 2001 I wrote a long biblical paper on my site: http://www.sexwork.com/coalition/christian.html

I also have been speaker filling rooms at the old Lifestyles swing Conventions for several years on "Swinging, not a biblical conflict? They use to sell tapes of my presentations and did some video interviews decades ago when I was younger

 

[WilliamStub]

WilliamStub,

You keep saying the USA as though it is one big place.

It really isn’t. It is a union of 50 states, with the laws prohibiting prostitution being at the state level.

Hey Patron;

I was certainly not intent on generalizing or judging all (or even any) of the states, and I appreciate both your specificity of explaining how regions differ and what I should specifically worry about in my case.
So - my abc's I retain for SF: not much to worry about (outside it being more expensive), simply mutual interest on screening and referrals from locals where helpful. Best place to get useful reviews in the states is on TER.

W.