Racism and SPs preferences

[John_Cage]

I recently develope a theory on why are the human race imperfect (Yes, I am bored like that... You will be surprised that I find the time to write stuff like this between my midterms and finals).

Homo Sapians are imperfect because we do not understand ourselves. We do not understand our most BASIC drives. My drive is based on success. I personally have a very utiltarian view on life - and I believe that makes me less of a racist.

People who are "racists" are in my opinion, people with strong principles. This sounds better than what they actually are - stubborn old fools.

I don't have "real" principles. I do what benefits me the most and what makes me feel the best. If I like a woman of another race... I would be with her; racism doesn't mean anything to me. Would I hire someone of my own race over someone else (who's more qualified)? No way, I don't care about that person enough to risk have a less qualified employee. If I have a daughter, I would not mind if she wants to marry someone of another race... as long as he is a successful man. What the hell in today world still care about race? Are we still so attach to it? Enough to overcome our logical reasoning?

I never let emotions or "beliefs" affect the way I handle things. Logical reasoning is the only driving force behind how I think. Think about the Vulcans in the Star Tekk series... if all humans can think like that... Racism would cease to exist. Because it's pointless.

If those Racists who lost their jobs took a moment to THINK before they spoke, if they had analysed their actions and their respective outcomes, then they would not have done as they did. Is it worth it to lose your job just to make a comment about "nappy haired basketball players"?

In fact even if there's a 0.000000001% chance I might lose ANYTHING by saying some racist, I would not do it. Because saying something racist do not benefit me. Being a racist is useless, so why do it? I don't care about people of my race enough to want to "warm" up to them; nor do I care about people of other race enough to want to "damage" them. I care only for myself and people important to me (that's still considered caring for myself. because caring for people important to me makes ME feel good).

If all humans to get in touch with their SELVES, and instead of thinking and speaking the way their parents do (because they picked it up from THEIR parents), then racism would not exist.

Which also leads to another point. Logical thinking leads to non-racist behavoir, THUS the racists are more likely to be idiots. Think about it.

 

[John_Cage]

My people owned your people, and we made you better looking through bondage and rape.

When did Europeans own your people through "bondage and rape"? I took history and I simply don't remember that happening... There were slavery during Roman times but that doesn't involve Asians. There were slavery in the Middle-East but that doesn't involve Asians. There were slavery in US and Europe during colonial times but that doesn't involve Asians...

Also, I think there's an actual difference (genetically speaking) between East Asians, Southeastern Asians and India (by god, I don't know why they are Asians, they do not share Asian features nor historic background). Which one are you?

Btw, because of the way genetics work, "mixed" race are usually better looking than its two parent races. We survive better when our gene pool is more diverse, because "better" genes are usually dominate over "lesser" genes. If two races mix, they will compliment each other's flaws (usually). That's the whole reason we have dominate and recessive alleles.

 

[z/m(Ret)]

Pragmatism

I recently develope a theory on why are the human race imperfect (Yes, I am bored like that... You will be surprised that I find the time to write stuff like this between my midterms and finals).

Homo Sapians are imperfect because we do not understand ourselves. We do not understand our most BASIC drives. My drive is based on success. I personally have a very utiltarian view on life - and I believe that makes me less of a racist.

People who are "racists" are in my opinion, people with strong principles. This sounds better than what they actually are - stubborn old fools.

I don't have "real" principles. I do what benefits me the most and what makes me feel the best. If I like a woman of another race... I would be with her; racism doesn't mean anything to me. Would I hire someone of my own race over someone else (who's more qualified)? No way, I don't care about that person enough to risk have a less qualified employee. If I have a daughter, I would not mind if she wants to marry someone of another race... as long as he is a successful man. What the hell in today world still care about race? Are we still so attach to it? Enough to overcome our logical reasoning?

I never let emotions or "beliefs" affect the way I handle things. Logical reasoning is the only driving force behind how I think. Think about the Vulcans in the Star Tekk series... if all humans can think like that... Racism would cease to exist. Because it's pointless.

If those Racists who lost their jobs took a moment to THINK before they spoke, if they had analysed their actions and their respective outcomes, then they would not have done as they did. Is it worth it to lose your job just to make a comment about "nappy haired basketball players"?

In fact even if there's a 0.000000001% chance I might lose ANYTHING by saying some racist, I would not do it. Because saying something racist do not benefit me. Being a racist is useless, so why do it? I don't care about people of my race enough to want to "warm" up to them; nor do I care about people of other race enough to want to "damage" them. I care only for myself and people important to me (that's still considered caring for myself. because caring for people important to me makes ME feel good).

If all humans to get in touch with their SELVES, and instead of thinking and speaking the way their parents do (because they picked it up from THEIR parents), then racism would not exist.

Which also leads to another point. Logical thinking leads to non-racist behavoir, THUS the racists are more likely to be idiots. Think about it.

JC,

What you're describing is pragmatism in its widest acceptation.

What is known as Realpolitik is politics based primarily on pragmatism. Practical considerations have precedence over ideology.

Yet its some of the practical exigencies that guided US policy-making, some supporting authoritarian regimes and human rights violators.

Ford/Kissinger approval of the killings and deportations that took place in East Timor as of early December 1975 was, indeed, not racially motivated. It was a pragmatic choice made to keep Indonesia, a client state, happy and a way to position the West favourably in a strategic location for commerce.

Everyday life: landlord refuses to rent flat to blacks, allegedly not because he's racist but for practical reasons, i.e. blacks are statistically poorer hence likely to miss rent payment.

Now, is the landlord a racist or a pragmatic? Or would there be an intersection between the two ?

 

[dirtierasigetolder]

Racism sucks plain and simple and has no place in this era. No amount of justification, rationalization or validation will change that. We all agree it's bad. Black, white, yellow, red, green, purple, we all agree it’s bad and should not be tolerated. I'm with EB on this one, ignorance and lack of education is what feeds this ugly beast.

I am a child of an immigrant who had very little schooling. He did well by his family, he provided and was a good man but he came from a world where the races didn’t mix. He passed those same beliefs down to his children and not until I was an adolescent did I realize how ridiculous these concepts were. It took the better part of my adolescence to undo my preconceived notions. It's not that he meant to make me racist, he was just being himself and saw nothing wrong with this. I'm glad to say by the time I reached university I had shed my prejudgments and grown out of my misguided notions. Education and the melting pot helped me shed what I grew up with.

So how will I fight racism, I won't do it by forcefully dating somebody outside my race but I sure won't shy away from it. I won't do it by being an activist but I won't stifle a man’s voice. I won't do it by pointing fingers at racists but I wont condone there actions. I will teach my children in the best way that I can in hopes that one day racism will just be another page in history.

I tend to live life by this motto: Do onto others as you would have them do onto you

 

[John_Cage]

JC,

What you're describing is pragmatism in its widest acceptation.

What is known as Realpolitik is politics based primarily on pragmatism. Practical considerations have precedence over ideology.

Yet its some of the practical exigencies that guided US policy-making, some supporting authoritarian regimes and human rights violators.

Ford/Kissinger approval of the killings and deportations that took place in East Timor as of early December 1975 was, indeed, not racially motivated. It was a pragmatic choice made to keep Indonesia, a client state, happy and a way to position the West favourably in a strategic location for commerce.

Everyday life: landlord refuses to rent flat to blacks, allegedly not because he's racist but for practical reasons, i.e. blacks are statistically poorer hence likely to miss rent payment.

Now, is the landlord a racist or a pragmatic? Or would there be an intersection between the two ?

From a strict sense, IF the landlord didn't rent to ANY blacks (even the filthy rich ones), then he's a racist. If he doesn't know and he CHOOSE to indulge his ignorance, then he's not a racist.

It's perfectly fine to cross the street if you see a group of young blacks dress in "thug wear". But it's STUPID and RACIST if you see a group of suit-wearing blacks and you avoided them because they are black.

However, here is an interesting situation: IF all (insert race here) are a certain things, AND that "certain things" is not desirable in a certain job... Then is it racist to "close the door" to those people? My answer would be NO. Because it's not "RACE" based, it's "Ability" based. But then again, humans are not so different that a certain race can LAY CLAIM on a certain attribute.

This mirrors the female firefighter thingy... If the girl CAN lift 200 pounds, I am glad she's a fire-fighter, but BY GOD, if she can't do what the men could... then she have no place as a fire-fighter.

I believe that when you get down to it, "racism" cannot exist in the mind of an intellectual.

 

[happygolucky]

So what are you reading into this?

When did Europeans own your people through "bondage and rape"? I took history and I simply don't remember that happening... There were slavery during Roman times but that doesn't involve Asians. There were slavery in the Middle-East but that doesn't involve Asians. There were slavery in US and Europe during colonial times but that doesn't involve Asians...

I never said anything about "Europeans"? I just said my people.

I really don't see myself as multi-cultural looking, but I guess some people think my race is ugly, and assume that I must have something else in me to make me better looking than average......... I don't think they understand, I am just as ugly(or beautiful) as the average person of my race, but I do think that I tell interesting stories and have a better than average wit about me and that makes me more attractive....... which has nothing to do with my physical features. Another funny thing is most people think I am taller than I am, after meeting me, and most people don't even think I am overweight........ even my doctor asks me have I always been this heavy? Funny, she has her records right in front of her with my history in it......... weight & all!

I don't ever want to imply that I look anything other than Asian. In parts of Asia, I am still not sure that slavery is illegal? I believe that every country has had some form of slavery........... maybe not so much lately, though?

As far as the rest of your posts, I am glad that you understand that racism starts with you the parent and it is something that children learn. I hope that one day you have a great marriage and beautiful healthy children. Peace!

 

[hormone]

I believe that when you get down to it, "racism" cannot exist in the mind of an intellectual.

Eeeech... Actually, many racial theoreticians or theorists or something like that were- have always been considered as intellectuals (think of many precursors of nazism...). These intellectuals are not the ones who pull directly the trigger, but they convince others to do so for them!

 

[z/m(Ret)]

From a strict sense, IF the landlord didn't rent to ANY blacks (even the filthy rich ones), then he's a racist. If he doesn't know and he CHOOSE to indulge his ignorance, then he's not a racist.

It's perfectly fine to cross the street if you see a group of young blacks dress in "thug wear". But it's STUPID and RACIST if you see a group of suit-wearing blacks and you avoided them because they are black.

However, here is an interesting situation: IF all (insert race here) are a certain things, AND that "certain things" is not desirable in a certain job... Then is it racist to "close the door" to those people? My answer would be NO. Because it's not "RACE" based, it's "Ability" based. But then again, humans are not so different that a certain race can LAY CLAIM on a certain attribute.

This mirrors the female firefighter thingy... If the girl CAN lift 200 pounds, I am glad she's a fire-fighter, but BY GOD, if she can't do what the men could... then she have no place as a fire-fighter.

I believe that when you get down to it, "racism" cannot exist in the mind of an intellectual.

You seem to have the typology or racism down to a science therefore allow me to submit the following case:

U.S. declassified documents show clearly that U.S. and European administrations knew beforehand about Interahamwe and Impuzamugambi's plans to perpetrate genocide in Rwanda.

The international community did about nothing at that point that could have prevented the atrocities and did little thereafter during the 100 days or some the killings were perpetrated.

Racism? Not really. Had Rwanda been a strategic region, I have no doubt the international community would have wasted no time to gather a peacekeeping force worth mentioning (not that handful of brave yet deprived soldiers called UNAMIR) and saved the day.

Pragmatism? More likely. Balancing risk, cost and return is likely what explains the inaction.

Your theory stipulates that pragmatism eradicates racism.

I would subscribe to this theory provided we see that a certain form of pragmatism - political pragmatism - has caused and will continue to cause as much suffering as racism.

 

[z/m(Ret)]

I really don't see myself as multi-cultural looking, but I guess some people think my race is ugly, and assume that I must have something else in me to make me better looking than average......... I don't think they understand, I am just as ugly(or beautiful) as the average person of my race, but I do think that I tell interesting stories and have a better than average wit about me and that makes me more attractive....... which has nothing to do with my physical features. Another funny thing is most people think I am taller than I am, after meeting me, and most people don't even think I am overweight........ even my doctor asks me have I always been this heavy? Funny, she has her records right in front of her with my history in it......... weight & all!

Genghis Khan, it's you!!!

 

[happygolucky]

You got me

Genghis Khan, it's you!!!

HA! I wish! To be free to rape and pillage across all of Asia and Eastern Europe, with just my horse......... and maybe the Mongol horde behind me! How does one say "Yippie Kai Yea Mofo's" in Mongolian?

No sorry, that just not me....... still too candy-a**'ed to do real life and death stuff outdoors in the freezing cold! I also hate dairy products, so I don't think I could handle the fermented Yak's milk?

On another strange note, some Koreans believe Mongolians to be their lost tribe.

 

[johnmbot]

even my doctor asks me have I always been this heavy? Funny, she has her records right in front of her with my history in it......... weight & all!

dude, can't you tell she's flirting?

 

[bond_james_bond]

I've been told by dating services point-blank that they can't help me because of my race, but if I paid the money, they would keep my record on file, just in case.

Out of desperation, I paid the money, and while I did go on a few dates with white women, the dates never led to anything, and eventually, the dating services stopped contacting me completely. That was many years ago, and I've slowly been accepting the fact that the bottom line is that I'm S.O.L. for life.

 

[happygolucky]

Wait a minute?

Pleasant chaps those Mongols.... their menu is now available at La Belle Province:

“the Mongols made the fullest use of the terror inspired by their physique, their ugliness, and their stench.”


Mongols were narrow-waisted and small-footed, with big heads. They shaved their hair short on the backs and tops of their heads and left it long at the sides. Custom forbade them from ever washing their clothes. Also contributing to their smell might have been their diet, which at certain times of the year was mainly mare’s milk. On marches when there wasn’t time to milk, Mongol riders would open a vein in their horses’ necks and drink the blood, either straight or from a pouch.


After victories, Mongols sometimes celebrated by drinking kumis while sitting on benches made of planks tied to the backs of their prisoners.


Mongols also ate meat tenderized by being sat on beneath their saddles on long journeys; marmot steeped in sour milk; curds dried in the sun; roots, dogs, rats—almost anything, according to several observers.

Maybe I was a little hasty? I am nothing like that and I love to bathe and wear clean clothes. I have never eaten any real Mongolian food or beverages(including blood). Also Terror or inspiring terror, has never been my strong suit. I have no Mongolian blood in me. I am not Mongolian. The closest thing I get to on this short description is, I from time to time get bad haircuts? Oh yeah, I also live in a desert.

 

[J. Peterman]

Revisionist history.

Pleasant chaps those Mongols.... their menu is now available at La Belle Province:

“the Mongols made the fullest use of the terror inspired by their physique, their ugliness, and their stench.”


Mongols were narrow-waisted and small-footed, with big heads. They shaved their hair short on the backs and tops of their heads and left it long at the sides. Custom forbade them from ever washing their clothes. Also contributing to their smell might have been their diet, which at certain times of the year was mainly mare’s milk. On marches when there wasn’t time to milk, Mongol riders would open a vein in their horses’ necks and drink the blood, either straight or from a pouch.


After victories, Mongols sometimes celebrated by drinking kumis while sitting on benches made of planks tied to the backs of their prisoners.


Mongols also ate meat tenderized by being sat on beneath their saddles on long journeys; marmot steeped in sour milk; curds dried in the sun; roots, dogs, rats—almost anything, according to several observers.

Dee,

If the mongols were as wild and barbaric as you say they were. They have certainly evolved into a peaceful and gentle people. While I will agree with you that there were cruel and barbaric peoples on the face of the earth many hundres of years ago, this by no means are any indication of how these people are today. one good example are the Vikings. A people that were born into a baren land so devoid of crops or resources that the only way of survival is to plunder and kill. you will find the descendants of the Vikings to be as kind and gentle and any other peoples on the face of this earth.
I wonder if you belive that the holocost never happened, and that it was all made up by Jews to gain sympathy.
There are none so blind as ones that choose not to see!

Peterman.

 

[happygolucky]

Flirting?

dude, can't you tell she's flirting?

I wish! She is a hot, older professional looking Korean lady with these sexy brainiac eyeglasses, and very perky A/B cups, with nipples that defy all known bra materials! I can't wait until next year, when she says that she has to do a digital exam to check for prostate cancer, with my full physical! I never quite understood why coughing was sexy........ until she cop'ed a feel and told me to cough! She also always tells the nurse to tell me to remove all of my clothes and put on the paper gown........ even to just check my blood pressure. I told her once I thought if some else took my blood pressure, it wouldn't be as high...... because of her effect on me, but she just laughed and told me to be quiet. I wonder what it would take to get her to leave her even older husband? or maybe she just wants a little something/something on the side?

I can't wait until late January......... on a bad note, her nurse hates me!

 

[John_Cage]

You seem to have the typology or racism down to a science therefore allow me to submit the following case:

U.S. declassified documents show clearly that U.S. and European administrations knew beforehand about Interahamwe and Impuzamugambi's plans to perpetrate genocide in Rwanda.

The international community did about nothing at that point that could have prevented the atrocities and did little thereafter during the 100 days or some the killings were perpetrated.

Racism? Not really. Had Rwanda been a strategic region, I have no doubt the international community would have wasted no time to gather a peacekeeping force worth mentioning (not that handful of brave yet deprived soldiers called UNAMIR) and saved the day.

Pragmatism? More likely. Balancing risk, cost and return is likely what explains the inaction.

Your theory stipulates that pragmatism eradicates racism.

I would subscribe to this theory provided we see that a certain form of pragmatism - political pragmatism - has caused and will continue to cause as much suffering as racism.

I agree...

But the point is... it's NOT racism...

The world inaction is cause by the ack of interests in that region, not because the people being killed were black.

In fact, Eastern Europe was infested with civil war... no major international party actions were taken...

The world is unfair and selfish; that's a fact. Political pragmatism may cause suffering, but it is not racism. The cause of the suffering is what made the difference; not the result --- EVEN if the result MIRRORED racism.

 

[John_Cage]

Eeeech... Actually, many racial theoreticians or theorists or something like that were- have always been considered as intellectuals (think of many precursors of nazism...). These intellectuals are not the ones who pull directly the trigger, but they convince others to do so for them!

Very good point, but it's entirely different.

They study race, that doesn't make them racists. Just like we are discussing race right now. Sure, their beliefs may SOUND racist, but if they are truly intellectials, then they have their scientific reasons for believing so. Imagine IF the following statement is true: "White people can't dance". Then is it "racist" to state it? Is it racist to say "white people have pale skin"? Is it racist to say "Asians live in Asia"? Just because a racial term is used, it doesn't equate racism. Racism means (in a simplified way) USING race OVER reason to judge someone. Doing scientific research is NOT racist...

Now, you may say "but their ideas are so radical and so... well, racist!"

True, but think about it this way. Their made a scientific error... that's all.

Remember once upon a time when Earth, Water, Fire and Air were the "elements"? Well, remember when Earth was the center of the universe?

Are the scientists prejustice in anyway? No, they simple did their math wrong!


That was point one, now point two is a bit controversal...

I believe some of the worst "racist dictators" are not "really" racists in the defination of the word. Imagine if you are in charge of inciting a war against... whichever country. How would you rally your people? The only emotion strong enough to do that is "Love" and "Hate".

"Fight for your country, your wife, your father and mother... your brothers and sisters" - That's LOVE

"Fight to eradicate those filthy "whatever" who threatens our way of life!" - That's HATE

I am not one who oppose tactics. If it is neccessary to use racial hatred to rally an army, then the dictators who do are just... smart (and maybe evil)... but not racist. I think it's obsurd to think that the LEADER of a country is stupid enough to be a racist. He didn't seize power by being an ignorant fool.

People tend to believe what other say... but keep in mind that people say things for certain reasons. Not everyone is stupid enough to speak their mind "for fun". Most politicians do it "for a purpose", and most of the time, that purpose is "to gain power (votes)".

Also, some of the "racial scientists" were probably just doing what they do to "survive" in Hitler's time.

For the truly intellectual, "beliefs" hold very little water over "reason".

 

[hormone]

Very good point, but it's entirely different.

They study race, that doesn't make them racists. Just like we are discussing race right now. Sure, their beliefs may SOUND racist, but if they are truly intellectials, then they have their scientific reasons for believing so. Imagine IF the following statement is true: "White people can't dance". Then is it "racist" to state it? Is it racist to say "white people have pale skin"?

Pardon me John, but many racial theoricians from the turn of the 1900s (and other times...) were not simply making observations. They were emiting clear theories which said that white men were superior. Aryanism. THey were proponents themselves of multiple racial supremacy, purification, eugenism and other practices. Men of science... Which led to Hitler and Co, etc.
What if I say white men can't dance, because I only gave them music X to dance to. Never tried music Y, to which they actually outperform others! I may have come to a wrong conclusion. Bias.
You can do your math wrong. But you can also have the calculations fit what you want, consciously or subconscioulsy. Having (pseudo) scientific reasons to believe something can become very dangerous situations. Believing someone is neutral because he is a person of science is akin to this.
Being sincere does not bar you from being racist. Many whites actually thought in the deepest of their hearts without any ill will that blacks were different... not as good, not as intelligent. In some cases it led to hatred, in some only to passive discrimination. While it is true that it is better to simply disallow others from accessing the same things as you than to go out and hunt and beat people up ... both behaviours are still racist.

 

[EagerBeaver]

By the ways, on this issue being raised in the last post (i.e., "racial generalizations"), I read one of the funniest quotes I have ever read on ESPN.com in a story they did on former major league baseball player and pro football player Bo Jackson. In the story, ESPN discussed how 10 years ago on a hunting trip, Bo shot a charging 300 pound bear with a pistol at point blank range, allowing it to get almost on top of him before firing two shots, the last of which brought down and killed the charging bear. When asked if he was afraid during this experience, Bo said he was not. The author asked why Bo was not afraid. Bo said, "I was hunting with my white buddy, and I knew that if I had to run, I can outrun my white buddy. I do think about these things." The implication of course being that if Bo had fired and missed, and he and the buddy had to take flight and run from the charging bear, the bear would have caught his slow white buddy, allowing Bo to safely escape.

The problem with Bo's reasoning is that bears can run 35 mph, and if the bear chose to go after him rather than his slow white friend, there is no black man, not even Bo, who can run 35 mph, and if that bear chose to go after Bo rather than the slow white buddy, Bo would have been as dead as the white buddy had he been chosen.

 

[John_Cage]

What if I say white men can't dance, because I only gave them music X to dance to. Never tried music Y, to which they actually outperform others! I may have come to a wrong conclusion. Bias.

[...]

You can do your math wrong. But you can also have the calculations fit what you want, consciously or subconscioulsy.

Having the calculations "fit what you want" is putting "beliefs" over "reason"; and true intellectual would not consider it --- UNLESS there's a motive, such as to incite hatred to fuel a war. So, if that's the case, then prehaps that racial scientist isn't... truly an intellectual.

However, if he simply failed to control all aspect of the experiement (testing white men with music Y), then he's a faulty researcher... not a racist. Because if he HAD tried music Y, then he would KNOW otherwise. A racist does not change his beliefs due to new information; a scientist do (because they don't really have "beliefs"... They have "theories"). Somone who lack proper information or has false information is not really a racist. If you had data stating the Green Men are superior to others because of their higher IQ... you are in position to believe so. BUT if that data is incorrect, that is hardly your fault. You shouldn't be called a racist because what your unbias reasoning told you.