Riot in Montreal last night?

[EagerBeaver]

A number of the original Star Trek episodes had a common link. A few of the lead characters and a "yeoman" would beam down to a planet where there would be a confrontation. The "yeoman" would be killed - never stunned, but killed. Hence my previous comment.

That's true, and the "yeoman" who was killed was just a guy in a uniform and not a character who was ever developed. The reason for this sacrifice at the beginning of every episode was to develop a sense of the deadly danger threatened against the lead characters who survived the confrontation (invariably Kirk, Spock and McCoy).

We know the cops at HB Park were in danger, but we don't know if it was deadly danger or not. Regardless of whether they were threatened with deadly force, it seems to me that it makes sense to have a weapon which completely incapacitates a victim without killing him.

Eastender, let's assume for the moment that you are able to invent a "phaser" like weapon for police officers which could be used exactly as shown on Star Trek with "stun" and "kill" settings, and shown to be safe and effective. Some questions:

1. How quickly would you become a wealthy man after getting a patent for this invention?

2. If the cops had such weapons and were going to make an arrest at HB Park, would it be necessary for them to have the "phasers" on "kill" setting? Or would "stun" setting be sufficient? Can you think of any reason why this same situation could not be defused with phaser on "stun" with Mr. Villanueva being subdued and then arrested?

 

[Special K]

I can't believe this thread has been reduced to "Star Trek" metaphors. Good gawd!

 

[eastender]

Taking the Wrong Path

That's true, and the "yeoman" who was killed was just a guy in a uniform and not a character who was ever developed. The reason for this sacrifice at the beginning of every episode was to develop a sense of deadly danger threatened against the lead characters who survived (invariably Kirk, Spock and McCoy).

We know the cops at HB Park were in danger, but we don't know if it was deadly danger or not. Regardless of whether they were threatened with deadly force, it seems to me that it makes sense to have a weapon which completely incapacitates a victim without killing him.

Eastender, let's assume for the moment that you are able to invent a "phaser" like weapon for police officers which could be used exactly as shown on Star Trek with "stun" and "kill" settings, and shown to be safe and effective. Some questions:

1. How quickly would you become a wealthy man after getting a patent for this invention?

2. If the cops had such weapons and were going to make an arrest at HB Park, would it be necessary for them to have the "phasers" on "kill" setting? Or would "stun" setting be sufficient? Can you think of any reason why this same situation could not be defused with phaser on "stun" with Mr. Villanueva being subdued and then arrested?

EB

You are taking the wrong path. Regardless of the equipment and the technology you still have to deal with the human element. Basically it is impossible to get into someone's head and see how they will re-act when a hypothetical situation becomes real hours/days/months or years down the road.

Rehearsed scenarios in movies or during TV shows are entertainment. After the scene is on tape everyone goes home to their family and life continues.
This is not how it plays out on the street.

Previously I posted a report detailing deaths at the hands of police in Montreal during the last twenty years. On that list is one person who grew around the corner/across the street from where I grew-up and two that were known street problems in Hochelaga/Maisonneuve where I worked in security for a number of community organizations from the late 1980's well into the 1990's. The only commonality besides the drug abuse was that street consensus pegged them as people who would either kill or would get killed.In hindsight we know the results.

On a number of occassions have had to lead visiting hockey teams out of minor hockey arenas to safety. In the overall scheme of things this is relatively tame when compared to problems on the street yet the police get called and I have seen great fear on the faces of young officers, the gun hand within inches of the holster in a crowd ranging from toddlers to grandparents.

Regardless of the technology or the training you can never guarantee the ideal response to every situation.

 

[EagerBeaver]

Eastender,

I read that study you posted earlier and it is a very interesting read so I am reposting it:

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=b954aa3d-0de4-46f1-8fd8-5686996e4783

They should make all the officers study these cases and discuss why each death occurred and whether the approach taken was the best approach regardless of exoneration. I note the police officers were exonerated in nearly all of these deaths, except a few where there was mistaken identity or accidental discharge of a firearm. I don't really understand how any cop can be so clumsy as to accidentally discharge his firearm so as to kill a kneeling, handcuffed suspect. Something like that happened in the movie "Pulp Fiction" where the Travolta character is brandishing his revolver in the backseat of a car, the driver hits a bump in the road and the gun discharges into the back of the driver's head. It's only supposed to happen in the movies, not in real life!

Another interesting note: tasers and cocaine do not appear to mix very well and the combination seems like a very good recipe for cardiac arrest.

 

[eastender]

Human Frailties

Eastender,

I read that study you posted earlier and it is a very interesting read so I am reposting it:

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=b954aa3d-0de4-46f1-8fd8-5686996e4783

They should make all the officers study these cases and discuss why each death occurred and whether the approach taken was the best approach regardless of exoneration. I note the police officers were exonerated in nearly all of these deaths, except a few where there was mistaken identity or accidental discharge of a firearm. I don't really understand how any cop can be so clumsy as to accidentally discharge his firearm so as to kill a kneeling, handcuffed suspect. Something like that happened in the movie "Pulp Fiction" where the Travolta character is brandishing his revolver in the backseat of a car, the driver hits a bump in the road and the gun discharges into the back of the driver's head. It's only supposed to happen in the movies, not in real life!

Another interesting note: tasers and cocaine do not appear to mix very well and the combination seems like a very good recipe for cardiac arrest.

EB,

When I was in high school 40+ years ago a Laval police officer was putting his gun back in his holster and shot off two of his toes. Clumsy is part of life.

Explain why someone can make himself a cup of coffee daily for years then one day spills the contents and burns himself. Happens. Fortunately death is not the result.

You are correct about the connection between cocaine and tasers. Cocaine produces an accelerated heartbeat. When tasered in such a condition, humans are alot more vulnerable. The added problem is that drug users tend to mix substances at random which impacts on their behavior in public but people faced with the problem of handling them cannot tell what they abused.

 

[EagerBeaver]

I was involved with a collateral legal case stemming from the fatal shooting of a suspect by a police officer. I can't get into all of the details, but the suspect had taken angel dust, had stabbed someone and when the officer arrived on scene, he was rushed by the suspect who was holding a bloody knife at some distance. The suspect was verbally warned 3 times to drop his weapon and stop, did not obey either command, and was then shot 3 times and killed. He did not go down after the 1st two shots, which both hit him in chest, but finally went down on the 3rd.

I do feel sorry for police officers who have to deal with persons who are under the influence of unknown substances, especially angel dust which emboldens the suspect and gives him a false sense of invincibility. In such cases, it becomes very difficult to subdue the suspect short of killing him.

 

[hormone]

shot in the arm...

My only complaint is why did the cops shoot a fatal shot when they could

have shot him in the leg or arm to immoblize him instead.

This statement should be filed along with the "shoot a warning shot in the air" statement. That only happens in movies/ TV.

Cops don't shoot people in the arm or leg, not on purpose anyway. When a cop pulls the trigger, it is usually as a last resort, because their life or that of someone else is threatened immediately. So they are trained to aim for the largest surface area, that's the chest and abdomen, to have the maximum chances of success. In situations where street cops (as opposed to SWAT- sharp shooter types) have to fire their weapons, they don't have time to aim-- on a moving target, remember!-- for something that's just a few inches wide. Let alone from an awkward position as the cop was simultaneously pinning down the elder brother Villanueva.

 

[eastender]

Human Element

I was involved with a collateral legal case stemming from the fatal shooting of a suspect by a police officer. I can't get into all of the details, but the suspect had taken angel dust, had stabbed someone and when the officer arrived on scene, he was rushed by the suspect who was holding a bloody knife at some distance. The suspect was verbally warned 3 times to drop his weapon and stop, did not obey either command, and was then shot 3 times and killed. He did not go down after the 1st two shots, which both hit him in chest, but finally went down on the 3rd.

I do feel sorry for police officers who have to deal with persons who are under the influence of unknown substances, especially angel dust which emboldens the suspect and gives him a false sense of invincibility. In such cases, it becomes very difficult to subdue the suspect short of killing him.

EB

Your example summarizes the complexity of the human element. An on the spot toxicology analysis is not a realistic expectation. Sometimes it is a matter of doing the best that someone can and hoping for minimal damage or consequences.

 

[hormone]

I do feel sorry for police officers who have to deal with persons who are under the influence of unknown substances, especially angel dust which emboldens the suspect and gives him a false sense of invincibility. In such cases, it becomes very difficult to subdue the suspect short of killing him.

Actually EB, angel dust, or PCP, also has an anesthetic effect, so you don't feel pain or not as much, which is one main reason why people beserk on PCP can be demolishing a wall with their broken arm!

 

[metoo4]

Nowadays, cops are blamed as soon as they raise more that a finger to point a suspect, and even then, they are accused of harrassment so, forget a Taser! And even with the Taser, they're still accused of using excessive force. The Taser work for one attacker only, not a mob. A 9mm will fire something like 10 shots, enough to make subsequent attacker think twice.

As far as shooting in the air as a warning? No way, too dangerous when the bullet comes down at random.

Having the cop to stay away until backup arrives? Cops would be stuck in their cars all the time or would need to patroll in group of 10! Imagine, a car with 4 peoples? Call backup! A group at a bus stop? Call backup.

These "bible readers" were in a park, after the allowed hours, in an area where crime is rampant, and some peoples were identified as breaking rules they had agreed to. Cops were entitled to check them out. If they didn't have anything to hide, they had no reason to act violently. If cops were arresting one of the guys, the others had no reason to intervene if they were clear.

If these "bible readers" would have acted as civilized peoples when questionned by cops, there wouldn't have been a need for reinforcment to be called, the 2 cops would have been plenty and nobody would have got shot at.

If I've been found in parks by cops, while I was with groups of friends, after allowed hours, and had my id checked. I complied and we were mostly only told to go somewhere else. We were even told a few times to stay quiet and we could stay because we were preventing troublemakers to occupy the place!

A buddy of mine saw one of his brother break one leg and keep walking while he was on PCP. The guy didn't believe peoples telling him he had a broken leg, even if the bone was visible and the guy could barely stand. He had decided he was ok and kept trying to walk. He caused his leg so much dammages the doctors were later thinking about amputing, yet at the time, he wasn't feeling anything.

 

[seymourhass]

More information worthy of consideration

Police shootings need civilian review

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazet....html?id=262ec6b8-7b9e-40ca-bf16-84994a1645ee

 

[donethis4years]

You know what, I am fed up of these assholes, who think they are above the law, act like big time street gangsters and they when thing don"t go their way, they play thier rascism card! (I'm talking about "gang des rues" not police officers).

They police, went to the park, because Danny (brother of the victime) was violating his parol conditions. For me, Thats enough to simply follow the police officer and shut your fucken mouth, but no, this tough wanna be punk has to put up a fight and directly cause this inferno, wich lead to his brothers death! It's fucken enough!

Stop trying to blame the police force and playing the race card! Yes, Freddy did die due to a police bullet, but it was because they tryed to disarm the police officer. The police officer,felt his life was in danger.

I hate police officers, but i never answer back when they talk to me, i never disrespect them, i let them do thier job, and i do mine, it's that simple!

Now his brother (which has ties to street gangs and a conviction for having in his possesion a .22 calaber ) and his familly are thinking of sueing the police organisation for the death.....I say FUCK YOU! More taxes dollars to pay to a familly for a death in which they were to blame.

The medias are to blame for twisting this story to a racial profile story, just explain the facts that ploice went into the park, noticed a man breaking his parol and tried to arrest him, and his brother jumped the police officer and tried to disarm him, police officer acted and shoot the young man! THAT"S IT!

Now we even have to pay for the funeral and our politicians and Police administrators show up to the funeral!! WOW, we even start respecting criminals!

In the criminal life, expect everything! If you wanna play, in hopes of making it big and living life like John Gotti or Don Corleone, expect tragidies like this to happen, may not happen to you, but may happen to people close to you!

I say the young Danny should realize what he has done and caused, therefor reevaluate his own life, instead of putting the blame on others!

 

[Doc Holliday]

Does anyone remember the old Star Trek TV series, where William Shatner and his boys would use their "phasers", set on "stun", to disable any person or creature that menaced them or got in their way? I realize this was science fiction, but it is now 2008, and is it that much of a fantasy to think that we can't develop taser guns that can safely do the same thing? I know some police departments have started to use such weapons. It just seems to me as a society we should be closer to what we saw in the Star Trek TV series than we are to Wyatt Earp and the OK Corrall with wild gun shootouts, which is where we still seem to be.

Very good point. I've always wondered why the "Vulcan Nerve Pinch" has never been thought to future police officers at their respective police academies. As demonstrated dozens of times by none other than Mr. Spock in the original Star Trek series, it can be a most effective way to neutralize your opponent:

"The Vulcan nerve pinch is a technique used mainly by Vulcans to render another lifeform unconscious by pinching a pressure point at the base of the victim’s neck with all four fingers opposing the thumb. Normally this is done to other humanoids."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcan_neck_pinch

p.s. By the way, i'm offended that my name was omitted by the quoted writer's post. Wyatt Earp has always been given too much credit for the winning gunbattle at the OK Corral. If i hadn't been there on that day, the Earp brothers wouldn't have made it out alive. I saved their butts!

 

[SexyNadya]

Very good point. I've always wondered why the "Vulcan Nerve Pinch" has never been thought to future police officers at their respective police academies. QUOTE]

The Vulcan Pinch Nerve !!! lol !!! Doc could you use the Vulcan Mind Melt on me Sweety !! !!

Today this new coalotion of citizen named the Montreal Nord Republic called for the resignation of the City Mayor...Unbeleivable.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Doc could you use the Vulcan Mind Melt on me Sweety !! !!!!

You may just get your wish one day. However, i use an improvised technique.

This whole story is starting to remind me of the movie "Bonfire of the Vanities" where the victim is made out to be an upstanding citizen, people are appearing to be rebelling for political reasons, etc.

 

[eastender]

Some Truth

This whole story is starting to remind me of the movie "Bonfire of the Vanities" where the victim is made out to be an upstanding citizen, people are appearing to be rebelling for political reasons, etc.

Financial reasons would be more accurate.

Some of the businesses targeted were pawn shops while others with a history of community involvement were left alone.

Also you may have read that certain community organizations seem to imply that the solution is providing THEM with more money. These are the least effective ones. The better ones do not have this perspective.

 

[donethis4years]

Mtl North

Financial reasons would be more accurate.

Some of the businesses targeted were pawn shops while others with a history of community involvement were left alone.

Also you may have read that certain community organizations seem to imply that the solution is providing THEM with more money. These are the least effective ones. The better ones do not have this perspective.

What do you think is gonna happen. The city will pump in a shit load of money in Montreal north, just to clean up its reputation and taxes payers will once again flip the bill for this hole mess caused by its proper residents!

 

[seymourhass]

Based on a press release from the SPVM, “the mess” was caused in large part by a few professional agitators who seized upon an opportunity to steal things and wreak havoc. Many of them from outside the community of Montreal North

 

[SexyNadya]

Based on a press release from the SPVM, “the mess” was caused in large part by a few professional agitators who seized upon an opportunity to steal things and wreak havoc. Many of them from outside the community of Montreal North

---------------------

Absolutly ! It was the same group of poeple that hit the downtown erea last spring after the Habs took Boston to vacations.

Pictures cauth them in the act !

I support the fact that there needs to be a serious reevulation on how things are to be regulated over there.

And its not by having more Cops roaming the streets !

 

[donethis4years]

Police Bunker

---------------------

Absolutly ! It was the same group of poeple that hit the downtown erea last spring after the Habs took Boston to vacations.

Pictures cauth them in the act !

I support the fact that there needs to be a serious reevulation on how things are to be regulated over there.

And its not by having more Cops roaming the streets !

I've just passed by the police station in the area, on Henri-bourassa.
That place looks like a Hells Angels Bunker. There is a police patrol car, guarding the station by out side, and they just installed a huge camera on the roof of the police station!!

This has got to say something about our security, what's next....the army and curfuses?

All this for a bunch of idiots, i'm glad to see today that the Journal de MOntreal is reporting that 5 gang members in Montreal north may be deported because they are not residents of Canada!! This is only GOOD NEWS!