rude retail person

[eastender]

Statistical Misinformation

Camille Laurin once gave an interview stating that one of the goals of bill 101 was to eliminate English public schools and within a decade or two, this will have been accomplished. It isn't the French language that is in danger here in Quebec...it's the English language. English school enrolement has dropped from 250,000 to 100,000 in one generation. Why do you think that it's so hard to put kids in English school? Eventually the ruling government will claim that numbers no longer warrant an English language school board and the goal will be achieved. So tell me again how much the French language is in danger here.

English Public School numbers have been manipulated and misrepresented for years. This is also true for The French Public School numbers. Further complicating the issue is the fairly recent change from confessional school boards to linguistic boards. The actual numbers are difficult to find on the net and the last time I accessed them was in the early 1980's. The basics follow.

After WWII there was an unprecedented baby boom that had two direct consequences on education in the Montreal area. The need for more and newer schools and the need for schools in the suburbs as people moved out of the city core. This was true for all boards the old Protestant School Board of Greater Montreal(English) and the various Catholic boards (French and English). All boards undertook expansion projects that saw new schools being built at an incredible pace.

Unfortunately for these boards(English & French) by the early 1960's the baby boom had ceased and had gone into reverse. School population projections for 1960 made in the late 1940's and early 1950's were never met.The numbers were so badly off that the actual PSBGM numbers peeked around 1966 - 68 BUT the numbers were about 2/3 of the projection late 1940's/early 1950's projections for 1960. App one elementary school generation short. Some of the older schools were closed under the guise that they were no longer responding to the needs of the day but this only masked the real problem - badly miscalculated projections.

By 1970 fairly new and functional schools were marked for closure and other closure were inevitable.

A similar situation arose in the French sector. The French sector had an additional issue - after WWII women started demanding a better education and stayed in school longer. The French school boards started building their new schools later than the PSBGM. In the second half of the sixties some of the French high schools were temporarily housed in industrial buildings in areas like Rosemont.

The French boards resolved the situation by buying some of the old PSBGM
schools and building some new ones or expanding old ones. However the situation reversed by the mid 1970's and the French schools started operating under capacity and closing.

The main point is that the English public school system was in deep trouble well before Camille Laurin and the enactment of various legislation. It could be argued that the PSBGM was handed a tremendous face saving opportunity by the 1976 PQ victory since they did not have to justify their miscalculations - they could simply point to the political times.

If you look at the comments and numbers about the actual impact about this weeks ruling re loopholes in the education act you will see that the English commission spokesperson talked about maybe 500 students being effected.
Sounds like alot but it would equal about one 1960's elementary school or
40 % of a 1960's high school.

 

[eastender]

Two - Three Generations

Like I said poor english people in Quebec...

Pray for them...

English will still be used because 1- there is far more people around Quebec talking english than french 2- it is the business language 3- even with the laws french is losing ground to english.

On the other side, english is losing ground to spanish. Now that will be funny to see the same people complaining about the french laws saying that they need to do their own laws to prevent the progression of spanish (ok it is in the US...)

Two - Three generations and the debate will be the use of other languages vis-a-vis Chinese.

 

[Techman]

EE, I do understand your point re the English school system, but it's demise has definately been hastened by Bill 101. When I was in high school, a large English Catholic high school which was full to overflowing in the '70s, we had many immigrant students as well as many students whose parents were here on a temp basis for work, not to mention students from French families who wanted their kids to learn English. These students are now forbidden from going to an English school and my school no longer exists. This is not an isolated incident. Combine the restrictions with the low birthrate among all Quebecers and English public school enrolement is dropping every year. If it continues, the separatists will have their victory simply by attrition. You never know...if Quebec did ever separate it might find itself having to save the English language just to have people here to deal with other countries in business. Wouldn't that be ironic?

As far as the recent ruling and the government's appeal of such...it was said on a news broadcast that the total number of students affected would be no more that one tenth of one percent of French school enrolement at most. Think of the amount of time and money that is being spent on this and how much better it could be spent elsewhere. How can any group of people feel their culture can be threatened by so few? It's just another example of the inherent insecurity that, to me, is so prevalent in the Quebecois 'nation'. To prevent your own people from educating their children in a language that will open so many doors in their future is so sad that it's beyond words.

Techman

 

[Gorsky]

It is not because you went to english or french school that you can't speak both languages... It is not because you went to an english/french school that you'll be better prepared to face the world... It is by working and learning. The more that you learn to more normally that you are prepared to face opposition.

 

[Dee]

This from the CBC/Radio Canada

PQ backs new leader's hardline stance on French language

Last Updated: Friday, August 31, 2007 | 12:31 PM ET

CBC News


Members of the Parti Québécois are rallying behind leader Pauline Marois's move to have the party adopt a more nationalist tone when it comes to language and identity, and to take back its traditional role as a defender of the French-speaking majority in the province.

"If we are not able to continue to defend our rights on this front, on this perspective, we face a risk of [decline]," she said as the party wrapped up its summer caucus meeting in Quebec City on Thursday.

MNA Sylvain Simard said the PQ has been wary of associating language and politics ever since former premier Jacques Parizeau blamed defeat in the 1995 referendum on "money and the ethnic vote."

But Marois said the party must shake its fear of appearing intolerant to minorities, and must say out loud what most Quebecers are thinking: "You have to speak French." (emphasis added)

Simard said he is fully behind his leader's wish to rebuild the party's message around the politics of speaking French.
"It's not against anybody. Everybody that comes here, and wants to be part of this society, is a member of Quebec society," he said.

MNA Bernard Drainville said it's a matter of cultural survival for French on a continent dominated by English.

If the language is to survive, he said, it is vital that immigrants who start new lives here understand they must also live and work in French.
Marois denied that the party's bolder stance on the French-language results from the election success of the Action Démocratique du Québec, which campaigned against making accommodations for ethnic minorities.

 

[Techman]

It is not because you went to english or french school that you can't speak both languages... It is not because you went to an english/french school that you'll be better prepared to face the world... It is by working and learning. The more that you learn to more normally that you are prepared to face opposition.

I grew up speaking both languages at home, went to English school, had, and have, both English and French friends, work primarily in French and can bounce back between both languages at will. I had a freedom that almost no children in this province have today. Especially those from French backgrounds. And from the following quote, that's exactly the way some prefer it to be.

But Marois said the party must shake its fear of appearing intolerant to minorities, and must say out loud what most Quebecers are thinking: "You have to speak French."

The problem I have with that is that she and those like her would prefer that people speak ONLY French! In a world where being multi-lingual is an advantage like few others these fools would prefer to keep their people unilingual and trapped here. Appearance of intolerance my ass. They are as intolerant as any group of people ever to walk the planet. How they can honestly believe that forcing other ethnic and cultural groups to speak French will preserve the Quebecois culture is beyond my comprehension. All they will end up with are people who retain their own culture and happen to speak French. As long as the Quebecois birth rate continues to drop, their culture will eventually disappear anyways. All they are achieving is the postponement of the inevitable not to mention breeding hate and distrust and wasting a ridiculous amount of resources and money along the way.

Techman

 

[Gorsky]

I grew up speaking both languages at home, went to English school, had, and have, both English and French friends, work primarily in French and can bounce back between both languages at will. I had a freedom that almost no children in this province have today. Especially those from French backgrounds. And from the following quote, that's exactly the way some prefer it to be.

My backgroud is particular... My grand-father (very young at that moment) and great grand-father came from Enlgand. They decided to live in Trois-Rivieres. The second wife of my great grand-father was francophone so he had to learn french but that was a mixed french/english. My grand-father lost his english and married also a francophone woman. So the family completly lost the UK english to speak french. My father came in Mtl and learned a bit of english. He went to Spain and learned a bit of spanish. Vi la luz (means I saw the light -> born). My parents tried to send me to english school but weren't able to send me there even if my family name is still english... So I went to french school. I learned english and I consider myself fluent in english. I work mostly in english. I have also mixed french/english/spanish friends.

Like I said previously it is not where you study that is important but what you do with it...

So far I always voted PQ but since Marois took the lead I am really thinking to change for something else.