The Joe.T Memorial FM® Yankees Suck Thread for 2008

[rumpleforeskiin]

They lost one of their top prospects in Brandon Moss & a former number one pick in Craig Hansen, who's yet to reach his potential. All they got in return was Jason Bay?

First off, Doc, Brandon Moss was not remotely close to one of their top prospects. He's a 4th outfielder type, nobody who would ever start for the Sox.

Craig Hansen was signed amid a good bit of hype 3 years ago and has been a miserable failure from the git-go. Part of this, I'm sure is the hype. My sense is that Hansen is the biggest winner in the deal. The kid badly needed a change of scenery. I don't know if he'll ever be a big time pitcher, but I do believe it would never happen in Boston.

As for the key part of the deal, Jason Bay will never be the player that Manny was from 1996-2005. He is today ever bit as good a player as Manny. Despite coming from a park that depresses offense by 2% to one that boosts it by 10%, he has two more HRs than Manny this year. His BA and OPS are about 20 points lower, but that is more than compensated for by his defense, which, while not good, is certainly better than Manny's. He's also a better runner than Manny. You also know that he'll be in the lineup, that he'll run out balls, that he'll be a member of the team.

And next year, he'll save the Sox $12.5 M.

All in all, a fine deal for the Sox.

 

[eastender]

Tradition

All in all, a fine deal for the Sox.

The latest from the ownership/management that sold Babe Ruth and so forth.

 

[korbel]

The latest from the ownership/management that sold Babe Ruth and so forth.

So E,

You are saying that "the ownership/management that sold Babe Ruth" is alive, well, and in full control. Harry Frazee still alive after 89 years since selling Ruth according to you???? Maybe you should time warp out of 1919. For a data guy you sure missed these statistics. All this aside from the total silliness of the connection. Put it down to Red Sox hatred.

Huge Error,

Korbel

 

[EagerBeaver]

I haven't seen it, but it was reported during the Yankees game tonight that one of the Providence newspapers is reporting that Theo Epstein summoned a group or all of the Red Sox players and they voted unanimously to support the trade of Manny from the team. I presume the unanimous vote was due to: (1) Manny sitting out a huge game against the Yankees started by Joba Chamberlain which the Red Sox lost 1-0, this on the heels of Manny begging out of a game previously against another tough righthander; (2) Manny failing to run out ground balls on several occasions this past week; and (3) his incendiary comments accusing the Red Sox of demonizing him, Garciaparra and Pedro before they were traded or let go.

The Yankees had something similar to this happen about 5 years ago when Ruben Rivera stole Derek Jeter's glove from his locker after a spring training game and sold it to a memorabilia collector for $25,000. After a suspension, Rivera requested forgiveness and to be taken back on the team, Joe Torre decided to let the Yankees team vote on it. The vote was 24-0 (Jeter recused) that Rivera be kicked off the team. He was released the next day.

This proves that democracy is used within baseball, although the sport has some elements of communism which I have previously discussed.

Regarding Manny for Jason Bay, the only thing the Red Sox got was a younger player. Bay is not a better hitter. Manny is a proven clutch hitter and Bay has never experienced a second of playoff baseball.

 

[eastender]

Ownership/Management

So E,

You are saying that "the ownership/management that sold Babe Ruth" is alive, well, and in full control. Harry Frazee still alive after 89 years since selling Ruth according to you???? Maybe you should time warp out of 1919. For a data guy you sure missed these statistics. All this aside from the total silliness of the connection. Put it down to Red Sox hatred.

Huge Error,

Korbel

The names, faces, years may change but the tradition or notion of
ownership/management making less than stellar choices remains. Just like the Cubs, Expos/Nationals, NFL Cardinals and Lions, NBA Clippers amongst other teams.

 

[korbel]

First off, Doc, Brandon Moss was not remotely close to one of their top prospects. He's a 4th outfielder type, nobody who would ever start for the Sox.

Craig Hansen was signed amid a good bit of hype 3 years ago and has been a miserable failure from the git-go. Part of this, I'm sure is the hype. My sense is that Hansen is the biggest winner in the deal. The kid badly needed a change of scenery. I don't know if he'll ever be a big time pitcher, but I do believe it would never happen in Boston.

As for the key part of the deal, Jason Bay will never be the player that Manny was from 1996-2005. He is today ever bit as good a player as Manny. Despite coming from a park that depresses offense by 2% to one that boosts it by 10%, he has two more HRs than Manny this year. His BA and OPS are about 20 points lower, but that is more than compensated for by his defense, which, while not good, is certainly better than Manny's. He's also a better runner than Manny. You also know that he'll be in the lineup, that he'll run out balls, that he'll be a member of the team.

And next year, he'll save the Sox $12.5 M.

All in all, a fine deal for the Sox.

Hello Rumples,

I don't know much of anything about Jason Bay except for what I've read since yesterday. So I will defer to you on the comparison. However, in an article I posted somewhere in one of the baseball threads, the Boston Globe did a statistical analysis of the best slugging tandem in baseball and the stats showed that from 2003-2007 Ortiz and Ramirez beat everyone. That threat may have been in decline but the end of that threat will be a huge loss even if it is alleviated by other factors such as hustling and team unity. Manny for all his faults was a big part of two World Series championships, and even though the most productive times for the Ortiz and Ramirez tandem may have been declining, I don't think this trade will come close to compensating no matter how much of a hustler or team player Bay is. Yeah, I am kind of glad he's gone since his antics have made him little more than baggage of late. But he gave us a lot, even if the move was for the best.

Cheers,

Korbel

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

The latest from the ownership/management that sold Babe Ruth and so forth.

Apparently, Joe.T isn't the only moron posting here. So I'm told that I sold Babe Ruth. We are amused.

 

[korbel]

The names, faces, years may change but the tradition or notion of
ownership/management making less than stellar choices remains. Just like the Cubs, Expos/Nationals, NFL Cardinals and Lions, NBA Clippers amongst other teams.

Come on E,

Let me give you a little credit...seriously. You know very well that this is anti-Red Sox baloney at least since this team management took over. Obviously the proof is in 2004 and 2007. Now if you really know data/statistics I think you could use them to present a real argument about this trade if you wanted rather than posting out of date bias. You don't like the deal...prove why it's bad. Let's see those skills. Of course you don't have to....

Challenged!

Korbel

 

[eastender]

Sam Pollock

Come on E,

Let me give you a little credit...seriously. You know very well that this is anti-Red Sox baloney at least since this team management took over. Obviously the proof is in 2004 and 2007. Now if you really know data/statistics I think you could use them to present a real argument about this trade if you wanted rather than posting out of date bias. You don't like the deal...prove why it's bad. Let's see those skills. Of course you don't have to....

Challenged!

Korbel

Korbel ( or whatever your new name will be)
Sam Pollock - great GM of the Montreal Canadiens, his teams won ten Stanley Cups, had a simple method for evaluating multi-player trades.

The team that received the best player wins the trade. Career stats show that Manny Ramirez, two WS rings, future BB HOF, is by far the best player amongst the six traded in the three team trade. The four minor leaguers have all disappointed to date, while Jason Bay is far from a HOF candidate and his teams have had perennial losing records. If you want to check their stats go to:

www.baseball-reference.com or www.baseballamerica.com

 

[Joe.t]

Korbel ( or whatever your new name will be)
[/url]

I vote for "flip flopper" a la John Kerry, there is never a clear indication of what side he is on and he is always changing direction in many of his posts, clearly he should be called flip flopper.

 

[korbel]

I vote for "flip flopper" a la John Kerry, there is never a clear indication of what side he is on and he is always changing direction in many of his posts, clearly he should be called flip flopper.

LOL Josey,

And E often accuses me of reacting too quickly and taking sides prematurely. So which is it??? Too bad "Joe you fucking moron" is already taken...lol. It won't be earth-shattering, but not as completely dull as Joe.t...and the .00001789439 seconds it took to come up with that.

Of more current news: hey Poison pitched an excellent game. Too bad the Yankers couldn't hit Santana or anyone. Ohhhh myyyyyyyy, the Red Sox went 12 to win with an excellent pitching effort by many, and Bay scored both Sox runs.

Night night sweetie,

Korbel

 

[eastender]

Start a Poll

LOL Josey,

And E often accuses me of reacting too quickly and taking sides prematurely. So which is it??? Too bad "Joe you fucking moron" is already taken...lol. It won't be earth-shattering, but not as completely dull as Joe.t...and the .00001789439 seconds it took to come up with that.

Of more current news: hey Poison pitched an excellent game. Too bad the Yankers couldn't hit Santana or anyone. Ohhhh myyyyyyyy, the Red Sox went 12 to win with an excellent pitching effort by many, and Bay scored both Sox runs.

Night night sweetie,

Korbel

Korbie (to be re-named latter)
If undecided start a poll. Perhaps KorbieGoneBad (KGB) . If you are thinking about visiting the second floor at Cleo's perhaps Korbella or Korbelita .

 

[korbel]

Korbie (to be re-named latter)
If undecided start a poll. Perhaps KorbieGoneBad (KGB) . If you are thinking about visiting the second floor at Cleo's perhaps Korbella or Korbelita .

Wow E,

That's twice you were so funny in one night. Makes two total...lol. Actually, I was thinking of Korbelonev, Korbelov, Korbelovski, KorbieMagne. Wait, I know...Korbelicious...BINGO!

Solved,

Korbel (for the moment)

 

[eastender]

The Truth

Wow E,

That's twice you were so funny in one night. Makes two total...lol. Actually, I was thinking of Korbelonev, Korbelov, Korbelovski, KorbieMagne. Wait, I know...Korbelicious...BINGO!

Solved,

Korbel (for the moment)

Korbie,

Actually you should keep Korbel. From the standpoint of branding and the effort you have put into establishing an identity you should keep Korbel.

It would be like the Red Sox changing their name to something else.

You could use "........ a Korbelicious experience." Instead of Jolicoeur.

 

[korbel]

Korbie,

Actually you should keep Korbel. From the standpoint of branding and the effort you have put into establishing an identity you should keep Korbel.

It would be like the Red Sox changing their name to something else.

You could use "........ a Korbelicious experience." Instead of Jolicoeur.

Well E,

I.E., you mean "being a pain in the ass".

By the way...does anyone else feel uncomfortable about me and E getting along??? Twilight Zone...do do do do do do do do do. OMG...what's that cat doing to that dog. Get off of her, it's not your species.

Chills

Korbelicious

 

[eastender]

Actually..............

Well E,

I.E., you mean "being a pain in the ass".

By the way...does anyone else feel uncomfortable about me and E getting along??? Twilight Zone...do do do do do do do do do. OMG...what's that cat doing to that dog. Get off of her, it's not your species.

Chills

Korbelicious

Korbie,

Think about the old saying "Why be difficult when with a bit more effort someone can be impossible?" .

See if you can figure out where I am going with this.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

The team that received the best player wins the trade. Career stats show that Manny Ramirez, two WS rings, future BB HOF, is by far the best player amongst the six traded in the three team trade...Jason Bay is far from a HOF candidate and his teams have had perennial losing records.

This is too stupid to bother to reply, but sometimes I can't help myself. The team that gets the best results is the team that wins the trade. The early results show Jason Bay scoring both runs in a 2-1 win, the final run after hitting a triple. All Manny did in, ironically, a 2-1 loss was hit into a double play with the tying run on base in the 9th.

If you want to talk about career accomplishments, yes, Jason Bay will never be the player that Manny Ramirez was from 1995-2006. His OPS over the last two years are own .075. He's no longer a HOF caliber player. A very good one, yes, but so's Bay, a former ROY and two time All Star, once voted to start the game, and 8 years younger than Ramirez.

As for Manny's rings, this may come as a shock to you, but baseball is a team game.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

The names, faces, years may change but the tradition or notion of ownership/management making less than stellar choices remains. Just like the Cubs, Expos/Nationals, NFL Cardinals and Lions, NBA Clippers amongst other teams.

Which less than stellar choices are you referring to. The trading for Schilling. The trade for Beckett and Lowell? The signings of Ortiz, Drew, Ramirez, Matsuzaka, and Wakefield? The drafting of Pedroia, Lester, Papelbon, Youkilis, Ellsbury, Masterson, Buchholz?

You've said a lot of stupid shit in this thread over the last couple of years, EE, but this one is your crowning achievement.

 

[eastender]

Your Own Words

This is too stupid to bother to reply, but sometimes I can't help myself. The team that gets the best results is the team that wins the trade. The early results show Jason Bay scoring both runs in a 2-1 win, the final run after hitting a triple. All Manny did in, ironically, a 2-1 loss was hit into a double play with the tying run on base in the 9th.

If you want to talk about career accomplishments, yes, Jason Bay will never be the player that Manny Ramirez was from 1995-2006. His OPS over the last two years are own .075. He's no longer a HOF caliber player. A very good one, yes, but so's Bay, a former ROY and two time All Star, once voted to start the game, and 8 years younger than Ramirez.

As for Manny's rings, this may come as a shock to you, but baseball is a team game.

Your own words betray your point.

Baseball is a team game. Manny has the ability to make the players around him better evidenced by the positive impact he had on the offensive stats of David Ortiz(compare before Manny and after Manny) and the other Red Sox players. This in turn gave the pitchers a greater comfort zone, creating team wins and success. To quote Reggie Jackson the straw that stirs the drink.


So Manny's WS rings are a tribute to this ability. One game results are soon forgotten but everyone remembers championships.

 

[eastender]

Comparables

Which less than stellar choices are you referring to. The trading for Schilling. The trade for Beckett and Lowell? The signings of Ortiz, Drew, Ramirez, Matsuzaka, and Wakefield? The drafting of Pedroia, Lester, Papelbon, Youkilis, Ellsbury, Masterson, Buchholz?

You've said a lot of stupid shit in this thread over the last couple of years, EE, but this one is your crowning achievement.

That you did not include trading for Jason Bay says alot and defeats your previous point.

All of the moves you mention came at a price. Basically over the period of years that the above moves were made the Red Sox failed to stabilize two key positions - shortstop and centerfield while living with an adequate middle relief situation. Cost was Orlando Cabrara and H. Ramirez.

Net result is that they are incapable of a World Series string like the Yankees between 1995 and 2003 - 6 appearances, 4 wins.