The Official 2007 NFL March to the Super Bowl Thread

[eastender]

Football Spying

A lot of media generated hype. A segment from Peter King's column yesterday touches on the value of having access to an opponents playbook and audibles.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/peter_king/09/09/Week1/4.html

Second half of the page, segment with Peyton Manning describing a situation after Kelly Holcomb left Indy for Cleveland gives the reader a good picture of how useless such information could be.

Review the Jets / Patriots game and show anyone where such info would help.
Certainly did not help Brady and Moss make the adjustment on the touchdown pass, no influence on the kick-off return for a touchdown, no influence on the Jets before/after Pennington was hurt, no influence on the Pats O-Line pass blocking schemes.

 

[eastender]

Wedding Ban

As a matter of interest, in my job I work with a videographer who does some surveillance and deposition work for me, but the bulk of what he does is videotaping sporting events for high school football teams and weddings. I have spoken to him about some of the technology in this field and it is absolutely unbelievable what can be done and what you can possibly get away with in terms of spying on someone. I'll be curious to see how the NFL, already stinging from the Vick scandal and the Kevin Everett tragedy, handles this one.

EB

Expect the NFL to ban in season weddings.

 

[EagerBeaver]

Apparently the potential penalty under discussion is that if the Patriots are proven to have been spying, the NFL will require them to forfeit a draft pick or picks:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3012989

Note that the talking ESPN heads in the video in this link asked the very question that Eastender raised, about what advantage is being gained, and the advantage seems to be primarily gained in the next game that the teams play.

 

[eastender]

Football Spying II

Apparently what is under discussion is that if the Patriots are proven to have been spying, the NFL will require them to forfeit a draft pick or picks:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3012989

Note that the talking ESPN heads in the video in this link asked the very question that Eastender raised about the advantage being gained, and the advantage seems to be primarily gained in the next game the teams play.

EB,

The speed of the game is such that there is no advantage during the game as the time required to filter out the dummy signals from coaches is much longer than the time between plays.

Just a psyche job on the opposition designed to get them to waste their time instead of focusing on actual preparations.

Next game advantage is BS. Simple question. Do you think there is enough time between plays, especially if a "no huddle" is used for all of this to be activated?

 

[Doc Holliday]

I remember that in the late 80's/early 90's, Bears' new starting QB Jim Harbough being incensed & accusing his back-up, Mike Tomzak, of relaying his offense's plays while on the sideleines to the opposing team's Jim McMahon, a former Bear.

 

[z/m(Ret)]

Da Bears!

I remember that in the late 80's/early 90's, Bears' new starting QB Jim Harbough being incensed & accusing his back-up, Mike Tomzak, of relaying his offense's plays while on the sideleines to the opposing team's Jim McMahon, a former Bear.

I can picture someone on the sideline relaying the Bears defense's plays in 1985.

Spy: 46 defense, safety blitz.
Coach: Thanks, what's the next play?
Spy: 46 defense, safety blitz.
Coach: Dare I ask...
Spy: Yep, 46 defense, safety blitz.
Coach: gulp... thanks...

Coach to his QB: Do you have good life insurance coverage?

 

[General Gonad]

Coach to his QB: Do you have good life insurance coverage?

After watching Kevin Everett sustain a "catastrophic" and life-threatening spinal-cord injury while trying to make a tackle during the Buffalo Bills' season opener, I think a lot of NFL players will reconsider their life and disability insurance.

I love football but it's a brutal sport. I heard last week that the life expectancy of an NFL player is just 55 years old! Many former players are asking for disability insurance and are being denied. Mike Ditka is very angry about how the NFL is treating these former players. They should be ashamed of themselves.

GG

 

[EagerBeaver]

Goodell Finds Pats Guilty; Severe Sanctions Expected

Judge and jury Roger Goodell has convicted the New England Patriots of Football Espionage in the 1st Degree. Harsh sanctions are expected:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3014677

 

[Canadian Joe 652]

If true, then why?

Apparently the potential penalty under discussion is that if the Patriots are proven to have been spying, the NFL will require them to forfeit a draft pick or picks:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3012989

Note that the talking ESPN heads in the video in this link asked the very question that Eastender raised, about what advantage is being gained, and the advantage seems to be primarily gained in the next game that the teams play.

Do not get it, why with the talent they have will they lower to this????


Now my dear Korbel, the same was said about the Chargers at the begining of last season and yet they finished with the best record of the AFC.

One can be cocky but one has to be good first! I think there are alot of pretenders, but talent makes the team. A close first game with a quality team (no matter how many mistakes where made) is better than a overwhelming victory over a clearly badly prepared team.

If you watched last nigth's game between the Bengals and the Ravens you saw a continuity of mistakes one after the other from both teams, in fact Cincinatti won cause Baltimore turn the ball over for the 5th or 6th time in the game!

Still, I would want to meet Baltimore or Cincinatti any time soon, the Jets, that is something different and much less threatening.

CJ

 

[EagerBeaver]

Do not get it, why with the talent they have will they lower to this????CJ

That's a good question. If Eastender's analysis is correct that no usable tactical advantage was gained by stealing the Jets' signals, it really becomes more of a political/public relations question because Goodell sent a memo to all the teams that this sort of thing would not be tolerated. The Pats, despite their wealth of talent and the fact that they would only minimally (if at all) gain an advantage from the intelligence they illegally obtained, nevertheless decided to knowingly disobey Goodell's mandate. It's looking kind of stupid.

Goodell has no choice but to punish the Pats, since his office had chosen to make a big deal of this issue. Whether he should have made a big deal about the issue is irrelevant at this point. He did, the Pats ignored and disobeyed, and now they are gonna have to pay the price.

Question is, will he make them forfeit a high draft pick or multiple low draft picks? And what damage will such penalty do to the Patriots ability to bring in young players to provide quality depth within the parameters of the salary cap?

 

[Canadian Joe 652]

Maybe a better question will be, whom complained about it?


Someone brought this to the attention of the League, was it the Jets? There is no love lust between the coaches of the Pats and the Jets.

And again, you have one of the best quarterbacks in the league, he does not need the signals to read a defense.

 

[EagerBeaver]

Maybe a better question will be, whom complained about it?

From what I read, Jets security personnel brought it to the attention of NFL security personnel who then detained the spy and seized his camera. The Jets were likely watching for it, I suspect, based on the alleged prior violations.

 

[General Gonad]

'He will walk again'

Bills' Kevin Everett voluntarily moved his limbs, prompting a neurosurgeon to say he'll walk again.

GG

 

[korbel]

Despicable

Korbel,

NFL teams film games, but through specially designated cameramen who wear yellow. Those cameramen are specifically prohibited from filming the opponent's coaches relaying signals to their offensive and defensive teams. The Patriots stand accused of using a "spy" who was not wearing the designated uniform and who was filming the Jets' coaches relaying signals. Apparently, the "spy" was caught by Jets security personnel.

It is not clear to me what the penalty is or should be if the accusations are proven to be correct. In baseball, it is very common for a runner at second base to steal signals (or signs) being given by the catcher to the pitcher, and then relay those signals to the batter by predetermined signals. There is no penalty for doing this, although sometimes if the team whose signals are stolen becomes aware of it, they will throw at or hit the guy who is stealing the signals. At a minimum, if the accusations are proven true, the Patriots will be shown to be cheaters. The thing is I don't really know whether or not they are the only NFL team to have ever done this, and how pervasive this practice really is.

As a matter of interest, in my job I work with a videographer who does some surveillance and deposition work for me, but the bulk of what he does is videotaping sporting events for high school football teams and weddings. I have spoken to him about some of the technology in this field and it is absolutely unbelievable what can be done and what you can possibly get away with in terms of spying on someone. I'll be curious to see how the NFL, already stinging from the Vick scandal and the Kevin Everett tragedy, handles this one.

Hello all,

I did not have the time to disgest or investigate this matter before I left for work today. One thing I will never do in any case where a severe accusation is made is to convict anyone before I can cut through all the hearsay, and biased conclusions of knee-jerk lynchers. However, so far it looks like a very ugly and inexcusable episode. DAMN...how terrible it feels to see my team lower themselves almost as low as the outright cheating Raiders teams of the Madden years with quarterbacks faking roughing the passer calls or players deliberately coached to fake a fumble to push the ball forward 10, 20, 40 yards or more. Well, the spying episode is despicable. If it's all true...admit it, take the penalties like men, and move on. As for what the penalty should be, I will say what I think I would have said for any team. Take away their highest pick for the next draft.

SIGH!

Korbel (Still a PROUD member of PATRIOTS NATION)

 

[korbel]

Do not get it, why with the talent they have will they lower to this????


Now my dear Korbel, the same was said about the Chargers at the begining of last season and yet they finished with the best record of the AFC.

One can be cocky but one has to be good first! I think there are alot of pretenders, but talent makes the team. A close first game with a quality team (no matter how many mistakes where made) is better than a overwhelming victory over a clearly badly prepared team.

If you watched last nigth's game between the Bengals and the Ravens you saw a continuity of mistakes one after the other from both teams, in fact Cincinatti won cause Baltimore turn the ball over for the 5th or 6th time in the game!

Still, I would want to meet Baltimore or Cincinatti any time soon, the Jets, that is something different and much less threatening.

CJ

Hello CJ 652,

Now...did you miss the part where I said one game means nothing. It's one victory or one defeat. That's it. I did not say the Chargers were a poor team, and I never implied they would not be a great team this year. But, looking at that game last week they sure weren't impressive. That much is true.

I don't think the Jets are as bad as you think, and I don't think any possible signal stealing altered the outcome by much if anything. It still takes discipline, execution, and talent to win any game. As for the quality of the Patriots opponents, the Jets have bedeviled them in recent years, usually gaining no more than a season split. So the blowout was impressive against a team that has been very tough for them.

Next weeks game will be fun but it's far to early for any one game to show what teams may become in December. Either the Patriots of Chargers will win bragging rights against the other, but it won't prove much for the two teams can be or what they can achieve in the playoffs. In 2001, after 7 games the Patriots were 2-5 and looking incredibly inept. Then they won all the rest right through the Super Bowl. So I am not making firm assessments about any team for now. A win is just win. But it is better not to risk it so closely...isn't it.

Cheerio,

Korbel

 

[eastender]

Because They Can

That's a good question. If Eastender's analysis is correct that no usable tactical advantage was gained by stealing the Jets' signals, it really becomes more of a political/public relations question because Goodell sent a memo to all the teams that this sort of thing would not be tolerated. The Pats, despite their wealth of talent and the fact that they would only minimally (if at all) gain an advantage from the intelligence they illegally obtained, nevertheless decided to knowingly disobey Goodell's mandate. It's looking kind of stupid.

Goodell has no choice but to punish the Pats, since his office had chosen to make a big deal of this issue. Whether he should have made a big deal about the issue is irrelevant at this point. He did, the Pats ignored and disobeyed, and now they are gonna have to pay the price.

Question is, will he make them forfeit a high draft pick or multiple low draft picks? And what damage will such penalty do to the Patriots ability to bring in young players to provide quality depth within the parameters of the salary cap?

EB and others,

A few comments.

The Patriots and all the NFL teams spend well over $1,000,000.00 each annually on special computer programs that generate micro analysis of every play of every game. The Patriots are known for going to extremes in this regard. Basically they do it because the money and technology is there.
There is no salary cap on this expenditure. They believe that somewhere down the line they may discover something that may make the difference.

Forfeiting a combination of draft picks is a minor penalty. Draft picks may be replaced by trading down or moving some of your surplus talent. Given that the salary cap goes up $5 - 10 million a year and that the Patriots will draft low the impact is minimal.

I would be more concerned about the radio communications aspect of the whole episode. Potentially if you could intercept communications to the field as they go in you would have a significant edge. This would impact significantly on the integrity of the game and further remove it from being decided by the players.

 

[eastender]

One Game

Hello CJ 652,

Now...did you miss the part where I said one game means nothing. It's one victory or one defeat. That's it. I did not say the Chargers were a poor team, and I never implied they would not be a great team this year. But, looking at that game last week they sure weren't impressive. That much is true.

Korbel

Korbel,

One game with a new and suspect coaching staff against one of the Super Bowl finalists from the previous season means alot.

Against a bad team it would mean very little.

 

[Canadian Joe 652]

Time will tell

I think time will tell, my only point is: it has being a long time, since the times of Dan Fouts or Ken Winslow that the Charger nation had a team to feel proud about, a player (LT) to look foward to, so I feel our chances are better than average.

Will it be though, of course it will be, it will not be the NFL any other way, still I like the chances that we have and surely we will make life difficult to anyone playing us, inlcuding next week's contender

Will we win all of them, quite probably not, and still I think our chances are as good if not better than the chances the Pats have.

CJ

 

[korbel]

Not better.

I think time will tell, my only point is: it has being a long time, since the times of Dan Fouts or Ken Winslow that the Charger nation had a team to feel proud about, a player (LT) to look foward to, so I feel our chances are better than average.

Will it be though, of course it will be, it will not be the NFL any other way, still I like the chances that we have and surely we will make life difficult to anyone playing us, inlcuding next week's contender

Will we win all of them, quite probably not, and still I think our chances are as good if not better than the chances the Pats have.

CJ

Hello CJ 652,

I have no idea how the Chargers may have improved this year over last. Certainly the Patriots victory over them (just had to say that) really did not show who was better despite the score because it was so close. Yet, with the great core of receivers the Patriots have now they are a significantly improved threat. If their offensive line can stay healty and protect Brady anywhere near as well as they did last week, the opposition is going to get worn out every game. Yes, the Chargers probably have a great chance. I could not deny that. But...are their odds better than the Patriots at this point...not a freaking chance no matter what happens this Sunday.

Just caught the Charger's LT saying something like the Patriots motto is: "if you aren't cheating you aren't trying"...lol. Ohhhhh bittterness is a star who FAILED! Cheap shot consolation I guess or possibly just using his mouth to divert attention from his shitty 17 att 25 yds rushing performance last weekend.

Cheerio,

Korbel

 

[EagerBeaver]

More on Patriots Spygate

Some of the particulars on the Patriots spying incident have emerged in a detailed report in the New York Daily News by Rich Cimini. Unfortunately I can't find a link to the article which was republished in my local paper.

Cimini is reporting that the Patriot's "spy" is 26 year old Matt Estrella, who is employed by the Patriots as a "video assistant." According to Cimini, Estrella videotaped hand signals from Jets' defensive coaches on the sidelines during the 1st half of last Sunday's Patriots-Jets game. Estrella was wearing a Patriots polo shirt underneath the league mandated yellow sideline photographer's vest (this is contrary to other reports that he wasn't wearing the vest). As Estrella attempted to enter the Patriots lockerrom at halftime, he was stopped by Jets security personnel. An animated discussion then ensued between Jets security personnel, Patriots security personnel, and NFL security personnel which became so intense that New Jersey State Troopers were summoned as a precaution. The Jets security goons apparently tried to confiscate Estrella's tape, but the NFL security personnel demanded that the Jets' goons turn it over to the NFL security goons, which they ultimately did. Ultimately Estrella's tape was then placed in a box, sealed and shipped to Commissioner Goodell's office.

According to one eyewitness, 26 year old Patriots spy Estrella "looked scared to death."

In the article, Jets safety Kerry Rhodes is quoted as saying that in the second half, when Brady completed 10 of 11 passes for 138 yards and a TD, "he seemed like he knew what we were doing."

The article also suggests that Jets coach Eric Mangini was aware of this long time practice of the Patriots, having coached under Belichik 2000-2005, and instructed Jets security personnel to keep an eye on Estrella.

Cimini is also reporting that contrary to the ESPN report stating that Goodell has already determined that the Patriots violated his mandate against spying, he has not yet made a final decision, but will do so ASAP and likely before Friday.