The Official 2007 NFL March to the Super Bowl Thread

[korbel]

Some of the particulars on the Patriots spying incident have emerged in a detailed report in the New York Daily News by Rich Cimini. Unfortunately I can't find a link to the article which was republished in my local paper.

Cimini is reporting that the Patriot's "spy" is 26 year old Matt Estrella, who is employed by the Patriots as a "video assistant." According to Cimini, Estrella videotaped hand signals from Jets' defensive coaches on the sidelines during the 1st half of last Sunday's Patriots-Jets game. Estrella was wearing a Patriots polo shirt underneath the league mandated yellow sideline photographer's vest (this is contrary to other reports that he wasn't wearing the vest). As Estrella attempted to enter the Patriots lockerrom at halftime, he was stopped by Jets security personnel. An animated discussion then ensued between Jets security personnel, Patriots security personnel, and NFL security personnel which became so intense that New Jersey State Troopers were summoned as a precaution. The Jets security goons apparently tried to confiscate Estrella's tape, but the NFL security personnel demanded that the Jets' goons turn it over to the NFL security goons, which they ultimately did. Ultimately Estrella's tape was then placed in a box, sealed and shipped to Commissioner Goodell's office.

According to one eyewitness, 26 year old Patriots spy Estrella "looked scared to death."

In the article, Jets safety Kerry Rhodes is quoted as saying that in the second half, when Brady completed 10 of 11 passes for 138 yards and a TD, "he seemed like he knew what we were doing."

The article also suggests that Jets coach Eric Mangini was aware of this long time practice of the Patriots, having coached under Belichik 2000-2005, and instructed Jets security personnel to keep an eye on Estrella.

Cimini is also reporting that contrary to the ESPN report stating that Goodell has already determined that the Patriots violated his mandate against spying, he has not yet made a final decision, but will do so ASAP and likely before Friday.

Hello EB,

The natural question considering Mangini's past connection is: what did he condone in the past. Since he seems to have known what to look for it would follow he knew how things worked in detail, a detail that suggests his own complicity in such deviousness when he was with the team. Now he acts like an innocent victim.

Of course the Patriots are guilty here. But the commissioner's warnings earlier in the year were certainly not directed at the Patriots alone. Does anyone believe this is the only case of spying in the NFL??? I am sure many teams are now scrambling to cover up their dubious efforts and wondering if their former coaches now with other teams are about to nail their hides. People like LT of the Chargers should be carefull before a "bolt" goes up their butts too.

Not an isolated incident,

Korbel

 

[eastender]

Clutching at Straws

Some of the particulars on the Patriots spying incident have emerged in a detailed report in the New York Daily News by Rich Cimini. Unfortunately I can't find a link to the article which was republished in my local paper.

Cimini is reporting that the Patriot's "spy" is 26 year old Matt Estrella, who is employed by the Patriots as a "video assistant." According to Cimini, Estrella videotaped hand signals from Jets' defensive coaches on the sidelines during the 1st half of last Sunday's Patriots-Jets game. Estrella was wearing a Patriots polo shirt underneath the league mandated yellow sideline photographer's vest (this is contrary to other reports that he wasn't wearing the vest). As Estrella attempted to enter the Patriots lockerrom at halftime, he was stopped by Jets security personnel. An animated discussion then ensued between Jets security personnel, Patriots security personnel, and NFL security personnel which became so intense that New Jersey State Troopers were summoned as a precaution. The Jets security goons apparently tried to confiscate Estrella's tape, but the NFL security personnel demanded that the Jets' goons turn it over to the NFL security goons, which they ultimately did. Ultimately Estrella's tape was then placed in a box, sealed and shipped to Commissioner Goodell's office.

According to one eyewitness, 26 year old Patriots spy Estrella "looked scared to death."

In the article, Jets safety Kerry Rhodes is quoted as saying that in the second half, when Brady completed 10 of 11 passes for 138 yards and a TD, "he seemed like he knew what we were doing."

The article also suggests that Jets coach Eric Mangini was aware of this long time practice of the Patriots, having coached under Belichik 2000-2005, and instructed Jets security personnel to keep an eye on Estrella.

Cimini is also reporting that contrary to the ESPN report stating that Goodell has already determined that the Patriots violated his mandate against spying, he has not yet made a final decision, but will do so ASAP and likely before Friday.

EB,

Thanks for the additional information. This is getting interesting but not for the obvious reasons.

The following is obvious from the above. The film in question did not get into the hands of the Patriot coaches. So it was not used in second half preparations. Even if it had reached the coaches viewing and breaking down all the signals in the few minutes available at halftime is not humanly possible.No immediate advantage would have been attained.

Kerry Rhodes effectively admits that the Patriots staff adjusted better at halftime,even without the film,than the Jets staff did. Given the opportunity players and coaches on losing teams will try to deflect attention from the real reasons why they lost.

Since 2000 a number of Belichik assistants and Patriot players have been released or moved on to jobs with other NFL teams so this is not information that only Eric Mangini is privy to. It seems the importance of such filming is viewed differently by other players and coaches.

 

[EagerBeaver]

The film in question did not get into the hands of the Patriot coaches.

The article by Cimini expressly touched on this question and said it is not clear whether the Patriots viewed, copied or received duplicates of the seized tape at halftime. So you are making an assumption which may or may not be correct.

I should also go back to something Korbel mentioned earlier in this thread. While NFL games are filmed, video recording devices are not permitted on the sidelines, in the coaching box or in the lockerrooms during games. I believe the game films that are compiled are from a location that is specifically designated by the NFL and these films are compiled under the auspices of NFL security. Therefore, if Estrella was on the sidelines recording anything by video during the game, it is against NFL rules, according to the article by Cimini.

Korbel, obviously Mangini would have been complicit if aware of any past practices. Nobody is suggesting he is innocent and has clean hands. As to your other question about the prevalence of this practice, the UConn head football coach, Randy Edsall, who coached defensive secondary for the Jacksonville Jaguars under Coughlin, was interviewed by the Connecticut media on this question and he said it does happen in the NFL. He sees it as being similar to stealing signs in baseball, but like Eastender he says it is not as efficacious as one would think as signs are changed and adjustments are made, so you don't always know what the value is of what you are stealing.

 

[eastender]

As Posted

As Estrella attempted to enter the Patriots lockerrom at halftime, he was stopped by Jets security personnel. An animated discussion then ensued between Jets security personnel, Patriots security personnel, and NFL security personnel which became so intense that New Jersey State Troopers were summoned as a precaution. The Jets security goons apparently tried to confiscate Estrella's tape, but the NFL security personnel demanded that the Jets' goons turn it over to the NFL security goons, which they ultimately did. Ultimately Estrella's tape was then placed in a box, sealed and shipped to Commissioner Goodell's office.
QUOTE]

EB,

The scenario as described in the original post you made effectively precludes another copy. No mention that the taping was simultaneously transmitted to a separate receiver.

 

[EagerBeaver]

The scenario as described in the original post you made effectively precludes another copy. No mention that the taping was simultaneously transmitted to a separate receiver.

As I said in my original post I initially could not find a link to the article and was paraphrasing the article.

Now I found a link to the Cimini article in the NY Daily News:

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/f...eric_mangini_exposes_bill_belichicks_spy.html

Another link on Belichik's apology issued today:

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/f...belichick_speaks_with_goodell_apologizes.html

Another article by Gary Meyers calling for Belichik's suspension:

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/f...bill_belichick_should_be_suspended_if_fo.html

 

[master_bates]

My team is and always will be the buffallo bills.

How did they do?

They lost the game by 1 point to the denver broncos by a last second fg

 

[korbel]

Consequences

I should also go back to something Korbel mentioned earlier in this thread. While NFL games are filmed, video recording devices are not permitted on the sidelines, in the coaching box or in the lockerrooms during games. I believe the game films that are compiled are from a location that is specifically designated by the NFL and these films are compiled under the auspices of NFL security. Therefore, if Estrella was on the sidelines recording anything by video during the game, it is against NFL rules, according to the article by Cimini.

Korbel, obviously Mangini would have been complicit if aware of any past practices. Nobody is suggesting he is innocent and has clean hands. As to your other question about the prevalence of this practice, the UConn head football coach, Randy Edsall, who coached defensive secondary for the Jacksonville Jaguars under Coughlin, was interviewed by the Connecticut media on this question and he said it does happen in the NFL. He sees it as being similar to stealing signs in baseball, but like Eastender he says it is not as efficacious as one would think as signs are changed and adjustments are made, so you don't always know what the value is of what you are stealing.

Hello EB,

It's hard to get a feeling for how serious this is. I don't think it should be taken lightly. When I suggested this was also being done by many other teams, maybe all, I did not mean to suggest it should be passed over because everyone is allegedly doing it. I believe in integrity and if a rule protects the integrity of the game then it should be enforced. No excuses. The fact the Patriots never got the film and so no cheating actually resulted from it is irrelevant. Something has to be done to put everyone on notice through action not just words. A penalty or penalties is/are warranted. Losing draft picks, suspending Belichick or others, or using other options...whatever as long as it is proportionate it should be implemented.

What I do find odious is when someone like Tomlinson makes a general accusation in essence degrading everyone in the organization. There is no question that the achievements of the Patriots over the years were won with hard work, and execution on the field. There are just too many elements in sports that need to be performed well to keep on winning that simple signal stealing can never begin to account for. Simply having information about what will happen has often proved useless. As one person described about the 1985 Bears defense, you always knew they were going to blitz, but stopping it was another matter. How often do we all know a team will pass, pass, pass, in the 4th quarter when behind and still they succeed. Yes, someone planned to cheat. That's the only point that matters in this episode. But to call everyone a cheater is as valid as calling everyone in the Charger organization a bitter, small-minded, loud-mouthed, self-indulgent, poor loser. Tomlinson was just plain cheap and shameful. The Patriots organization will be punished. But to attempt to taint the honestly earned achievements of everyone associated with the team with slander is the work of a very little person...a true CONTEMPTIBLE!

Disgusting,

Korbel

 

[eastender]

Patriots and McLaren / NFL and F1

The F1 spying scandal puts things in an interesting perspective.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/racing/09/13/mclaren.ap/index.html

Keep in mind the nature of the documents,the evidence and that the standards of proof and evidence vary between North America and Europe.

Perhaps a parallel F1 thread would have merit.

 

[korbel]

Hello all,

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/7222570
"NEW YORK - New England coach Bill Belichick was fined the NFL maximum of $500,000 Thursday and the Patriots were ordered to pay $250,000 for videotaping an opponent's offensive and defensive signals.
Commissioner Roger Goodell also ordered the team to give up next year's first-round draft choice if it reaches the playoffs and second- and third-round picks if it doesn't."

Well, in my opinion this seems to be just about what I expected except that I thought Belichick might get some suspesion time. I did not know the guidelines on fining for something like this, but I think it put the blame right where it belongs. I hope my over-zealous buddy Billy will act with more integrity from now on. It was a shameful episode.

Bravo NFL,

Korbel

 

[eastender]

Interesting Penalty

Hello all,

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/7222570
"NEW YORK - New England coach Bill Belichick was fined the NFL maximum of $500,000 Thursday and the Patriots were ordered to pay $250,000 for videotaping an opponent's offensive and defensive signals.
Commissioner Roger Goodell also ordered the team to give up next year's first-round draft choice if it reaches the playoffs and second- and third-round picks if it doesn't."

Well, in my opinion this seems to be just about what I expected except that I thought Belichick might get some suspesion time. I did not know the guidelines on fining for something like this, but I think it put the blame right where it belongs. I hope my over-zealous buddy Billy will act with more integrity from now on. It was a shameful episode.

Bravo NFL,

Korbel

Interesting penalty. No sanctions against the employee doing the filming or restrictions on their access to game films from other teams. The financial penalty is somewhat low - basically costs them the equivalent of the bottom 2 player salaries on the roster. Really if you factor in the difference between having and not having an extra play-off game at home then you might as well cheat. If you get away with it and benefit the net revenues from the extra play-off game are gravy, if you get caught BUT win,the net revenues from the extra play-off game more than cover the penalty. Not dissuasive at all.

Consider that players get suspended a minimum of four games for steroid abuse or a game here and there for minor legal problems or in game fouls that are spontaneous and NOT pre-meditated but may have a greater impact on a team's ability to make the play-offs this is significantly lacking.

Suspending Bill Belichik, assuming he had the final say which I doubt since management and ownership would have known, has some justification but how do you enforce the suspension? Is there a mechanism in place to monitor
absolute separation from the team during the length of the suspension?

Also it will be interesting to see how the NFL goes forward in regarding to various similar activities and curbing other potential problems that might arise.

 

[korbel]

Consider that players get suspended a minimum of four games for steroid abuse or a game here and there for minor legal problems or in game fouls that are spontaneous and NOT pre-meditated but may have a greater impact on a team's ability to make the play-offs this is significantly lacking.

Suspending Bill Belichik, assuming he had the final say which I doubt since management and ownership would have known, has some justification but how do you enforce the suspension? Is there a mechanism in place to monitor
absolute separation from the team during the length of the suspension?

Also it will be interesting to see how the NFL goes forward in regarding to various similar activities and curbing other potential problems that might arise.

Hello Eastender,

I have to agree the penalty seems a little light and probably won't be enough to deter others. But whether Kraft went along with the spying or not it is Belichick who is most responsible for all field operations and strategies and the one who should be the one held to account.

Cheers,

Korbel

 

[mark_sab]

pats

i live in new england and i have rooted for the pats in years past. the famous feild goal when they cleared a spot with a snow blower and kicked the winning feild goal didn't sit well with me. it is a funny thing. i was happy they won the game. but as years passed i slowly drifted my alliance twards other teams. now i am a jet fan. i think it was unfair. just as the boston celtics had cold showers in the visitors locker room and dead spots on the court, the pats have a bad reputation for being cheeters... with me at least.

the money and the loss of a draft pick is not what is importaint. what is importaint is respecting rules. this is a game after all.

how many young fans will this effect? how will this be remembered?

 

[korbel]

i live in new england and i have rooted for the pats in years past. the famous feild goal when they cleared a spot with a snow blower and kicked the winning feild goal didn't sit well with me. it is a funny thing. i was happy they won the game. but as years passed i slowly drifted my alliance twards other teams. now i am a jet fan. i think it was unfair. just as the boston celtics had cold showers in the visitors locker room and dead spots on the court, the pats have a bad reputation for being cheeters... with me at least.

the money and the loss of a draft pick is not what is importaint. what is importaint is respecting rules. this is a game after all.

how many young fans will this effect? how will this be remembered?

Hello Mark_Sab,

Considering Kobe, Tyson, Canseco, TO, Rose and so many more...it is tragically almost a mundane repetition of a de facto norm these days.

SIGH,

Korbel

 

[Canadian Joe 652]

The all migthy white horse

Now I know that in a world where professional sports have become an endless soap of scandals and over pampered so called stars, it is difficult to jump on the white horse and argue for a fair game and honest competition, butI will take a crack at it.

I consider both the coach and the Patriots organisation to have been degraded as so many have in the past by their actions, as I assume that you do not get a 500 Gs fine for accidentally making an innocent mistake.

The team losses important first round picks and the coach (whom is only liked in Boston) gets an additonal chip for his Not So Lovable Coach of the Decade.

I know some will argue that it all does not matter, that the Patriots win games and that is what is important. Still, from clearing snow for your kicker in a crucial final kick to cheating out the defense signals of your oponents, I have to belive there is more to professional sports than this.

Yea, Yea, I'm and idiot and naive but come on!

Worst is, they did not need it, they have the talent, Brady is, behind Manning (INDY), the best out there what a shame....


CJ652


P.S. An I will probably fall of the white horse as soon as the catch one of ours doing something stupid.

 

[korbel]

Worst is, they did not need it, they have the talent, Brady is, behind Manning (INDY), the best out there what a shame....

Hello CJ 652,

Absolutely correct. As someone in a local newspapaer wrote, there must be something psychotically obsessive about Belichick that compells him to do such things when he could have a very successful season and career without any of it. It's all a tragic shame. But what's really scarry is what's still waiting out there to be uncovered. Because as sure as there are stars Belichick is only one of many.

Puke,

Korbel

 

[korbel]

Hello Canadian Joe 652,

It's not even halftime and the Patriots lead the Chargers 24-0 so far. All I can says is: (spanish accent) CAMERAS! We don't need no stinking cameras...lol.

UPDATE: Impressive march by the Chargers to start the 2nd half. Then they give it right back...31-7 late in the 3rd...cooooooool.

UPDATE: The Patriots really looked excellent tonight so far and currently lead 38-14. Even considering the Chargers have some key injuries, they really looked pretty helpless to stop anything. Maybe they should be allowed to have cameras. All sarcasm aside, it wasn't much of a contest. I am definitely unimpressed with the Chargers, and Tomlinson got more yardage out of his mouth than the game. The current average yardage for him is 1.9...yikes.

Cheerio,

Korbel

 

[eastender]

Patriots / Chargers

Interesting game. New England's defensive synergy between the D-line and linebackers was incredible. Also the Patriots offensive line showed a great variety of blocking schemes that neutralized the Chargers defensive strengths.

Chargers were simply outcoached on all levels. Offensively their line play was very simplistic and unable to make the necessary reads and adjustments to what the Patriots showed. Defensively the front seven never played as a unit.

 

[korbel]

The Patriots???

Interesting game. New England's defensive synergy between the D-line and linebackers was incredible. Also the Patriots offensive line showed a great variety of blocking schemes that neutralized the Chargers defensive strengths.

Chargers were simply outcoached on all levels. Offensively their line play was very simplistic and unable to make the necessary reads and adjustments to what the Patriots showed. Defensively the front seven never played as a unit.

Hello Eastender,

Yes, the Patriot's offensive line made the game what it was. Their cohesiveness and coordinated teamwork made it easy for Brady most of the time against a vaunted though injured Chargers defense. Giving such a skilled and clear thinking quarterback like Brady that much time to reach the talented tools he now has in his receiving corps was tantamount to handing the game to the Patriots. And still, they certainly were not perfect. That's the scarry part...especially since there were no camera excuses this time.

And the Patriot's defense showed the same coordinated cooperative skills as the offense. If not for the talent of Rivers in identifying his best opportunities through the air the Chargers would have been no threat at all.

Still, despite the first two easy games I don't think anyone can really make an accurate assessment about how good the Patriots really are. The Jets were never going to be a true challenge, and the Chargers were not themselves for whatever reason. Yes, I give plenty of credit to the Patriots for their skills and their game plan. But I don't think either of their opponents really tested them. There are a lot of teams with unbeaten records so far who probably won't be in the playoffs. So 2-0 is great, but it's just a great beginning. Most of the better teams have not been sorted out yet...and the Chargers should be one of them when they get things in order. Still, my boys look GRRRREAT so far...do ya think...lol.

From victorious Patriots Nation,

Korbel

 

[EagerBeaver]

Lost in all of this talk about the play of the Patriots offensive and defensive lines is the play of Moss and Welker. I believe Moss and Welker are the best WR combo the Patriots have had since the 1970s with Morgan and Stingley. Moss has 17 catches in 2 games and I believe Welker has 16.

Is there a better white wide receiver in the NFL right now than Welker?

 

[Canadian Joe 652]

Where the heck did the Chargers go?

Shame, shame, shame. Everyone was looking forward to this game this week, 2 of the top teams in the NFL where meeting.

A team was eventually going to win but we all expected a good game, and then the Chargers forgot to show up!!!!!!!!!

I'm sorry to disagree with some of you but it was not so much that the Patriots were that good, the Chargers never showed up! Shame!

Maybe we will find them for the next game or the road to January will not be fun!.